OSU Full Ride or Swarthmore? Parent's perspective would be greatly appreciated!

Parents Forum
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<p>Quote from the story on the pro-life speaker:</p>

<p>Kristin Caspar ’09 said Tollefsen’s talk served an important purpose, noting that “Especially in liberal arts colleges, I think we need more conservative voices to challenge the beliefs that many of us hold.”</p>

<p>How open-minded of her (after all, students at Swarthmore pride themselves on being open-minded. Just ask them.)</p>

<p>I would certainly not consider W & L diverse compared to large state or urban universities. Nor would I say that a school could not be hospitable to gays and still be diverse. The point is that, like virtually all schools of its size, Swarthmore’s student body is self-selected, and has a dominant culture. In Swarthmore’s case, it has become the epitome of the schools for extremely bright, highly-intellectualized, politically correct students. Indeed, for that group of students, Swarthmore is the gold standard. But to suggest that Swarthmore is as diverse as major urban universities or flagship state universities in any meaningful sense is simply preposterous, unless you define diversity narrowly by simply counting members of minority races, and even there it loses out to many of the urban universities.</p>

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I agree that Swarthmore is “politically correct”. I guess I just fail to see how it is a bad thing. Or why it would be undesirable to be (or aspire to be) in a place for “extremely bright, highly-intellectualized, politically correct students.”</p>

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<p>Agreed - nor do I have any problem with how you worded it. I do believe that a legitimate concern is that classes only move as fast as its weakest links. Further, I believe that you not only learn from your professors but your peers (along with intellectual curiosity and excitement can be contagious).</p>

<p>So, that’s the rub in these situations. A parent’s legitimate concerns in these situations are:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Did I advise my son or daughter to strongly challenge themselves intellectually? </p></li>
<li><p>Knowing the realities of the ‘paper chase’ - by advising my son or daughter to challenge themselves intellectually - did I in fact put them in harm’s way?</p></li>
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<p>It’s not easy.</p>

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<p>Are there standardized statistics available about class rank and grad school admissions? For Swarthmore, given the high percentage who go on to pursue grad programs it seems like quite a few must be from the “bottom 80 percent.”</p>

<p>For example, my son is a recent Swat engineering grad. His grades were pretty undistinguished and, though students do NOT talk about their grades with each other, he figures he was probably at or near the bottom of the class. (There are typically fewer than 20 engineering majors in a class). He knew he needed an M.S. in the subspecialty of engineering he’s interested in, a subspecialty not offered at Swat, so he asked his professors where he should apply. To our great surprise, they listed most of the top programs–as well as some safeties. We were pretty dubious, but since the profs know where their students have got in in the past, our son applied to four of the top programs, plus a safety. He was denied at 2 of the top programs, but admitted at the other 2 and the safety. </p>

<p>So, contrary to what some of the posts here suggest, being at the bottom of the class at Swat does not necessarily shut you out of a top grad school.</p>

<p>And I agree with those who say Swat prepares you very well. My son’s grades soared in grad school, he found the workload quite manageable, and he finished all his coursework plus thesis in under 12 months. (Doing less than the maximum courseload and taking 2 years for the M.S. is quite common there.) </p>

<p>Now none of this is relevant for the OP, who has quite different interests. So let me talk about something he’s said DOES interest him, the Foreign Service. (My other son is a Foreign Service Officer.)</p>

<p>Entry to the Foreign Service is entirely by exam. Your ug GPA does not matter AT ALL. What matters is your skill in answering the SAT-like multiple choice written exam, including deep knowledge of world geography and current events, and then, for the oral exam, your ability to think on your feet, be articulate, and problem-solve creatively and cooperatively. So for purposes of the exam, you would want to have as many college classes as possible be seminars where you are required to participate actively in discussions. (My other son went to Cornell and had many small seminar classes there; you don’t have to go to an LAC to get small classes.) </p>

<p>The other sine qua non for a foreign service career is mastery of foreign languages. Mandarin Chinese is currently one of the most desired Critical Needs Languages. If that’s still the case when/if the OP takes and passes the exams and his Chinese mastery meets the required level, he would get extra points to move up the list of candidates approved for hiring. (Fluency in Russian was the big boost for my son. He also tested and passed exams in French and Romanian, but that didn’t benefit him at all in the hiring process.) </p>

<p>A sine qua non for success in the career Foreign Service is the ability to learn new foreign languages. (They give a test for that too.) It’s probably not a coincidence that so many FSOs have a background in the Peace Corps or as Mormon overseas missionaries. Another large group are ex-US military. So, if the OP is still seriously considering the foreign service, he should look very carefully at the quality of foreign language instruction and the depth of the program at OSU and Swat. And study abroad of course.</p>

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<p>Whose notion was that? My argument is that intellectual peers, and specifically the effects of being surrounded by intellectual peers, are significantly lacking at OSU in comparison to Swarthmore.</p>

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Likewise, I find it hard to believe that a queer woman of color with socialist political views would be comfortable expressing her values without having to defend them. (The basis for this opinion–not assertion, but opinion: such minority groups have been marginalized at far more liberal schools.) Similarly, a social conservative would most likely be challenged on his/her views at Swarthmore.</p>

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<p>“My argument is that intellectual peers, and specifically the effects of being surrounded by intellectual peers, are significantly lacking at OSU in comparison to Swarthmore.”</p>

<p>I don’t know if that is true. </p>

<p>I doubt it.</p>

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<p>From my perspective, this discussion has pretty much run its course, but I would close with two points:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>First, your example is the analogue of an outright racist at Swarthmore; my point was that even relatively mainstream non-left positions are vastly underrepresented in the community there.</p></li>
<li><p>Second, the fact that one even has to think about the analogy between Swarthmore and W & L–a school that most people thinking about Swarthmore would consider the bastion of conservative, nondiverse (fill in the blank) speaks volumes about the claim that Swarthmore is truly diverse in anything but the most narrow racial sense.</p></li>
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<p>I see. I think I finally have it figured out! Swarthmore is not diverse unless you count ethnic diversity as diversity? By jove, I think you are right. If you don’t count diversity as diversity, then Swarthmore is not diverse! :)</p>

<p>BTW, I would like you to name some of these “many urban universities” that match Swarthmore’s ethnic diversity. I think you will be very surprised by how few and far between they are (outside of California). For example, I recall you mentioning University of Cincinatti as an example of a diverse urban public university.</p>

<p>Swarthmore: 56% white
Cincinnatti: 83% white</p>

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<p>Interesting. Thanks for the post. What sub-specialty was of interest to your son?</p>

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<p>Not really. We visited W&L with my daughter. There’s no way you can even dream the word “diversity” with W&L. It is what Fiske Guide says it is: “The last bastion of the southern gentleman who can hold his liquor and is damn proud of it.”</p>

<p>87% white
63% pay sticker price
70% have cars at college
78% are in frat or sorority</p>

<p>It is arguably, and the stats back this up, the richest, whitest, preppiest, least diverse college in the United States. It’s just nonsense to refer to W&L as an example of diversity in anything.</p>

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<ol>
<li><p>I never suggested that W & L was a diverse institution, but continue to maintain that the range of “acceptable” political opinions there is probably at least as broad as Swarthmore. Oh, I forgot–only 50% of the Swarthmore population is rich enough to have an EFC of at least $50,000 (translates into $150,000+ per year) as opposed to 63% at W & L. Silly me.</p></li>
<li><p>On the issue of racial diversity, you could start with the CUNY schools; with the exception of Staten Island, every one of them is far more diverse by any standard than Swarthmore (except, of course, for the low percentage of rich people)</p></li>
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<p><a href=“http://owl.cuny.edu:7778/ENRL_0015_RACE_TOT_PCT.rpt2.pd[/url]”>http://owl.cuny.edu:7778/ENRL_0015_RACE_TOT_PCT.rpt2.pd&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<li> But the whole numbers game comes under the heading of lies, damn lies and statistics. One of the biggest factors which goes into giving Swarthmore a larger nonwhite percentage is the very large representation of Asian-Americans. The only thing that I have to say about that is that if they are using affirmative action to juice those numbers in the interest of looking “diverse,” shame on them. (No, I’m not saying that Asian-American applicants should be judged by a different standard–quite the contrary).</li>
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<p>More generally, outside the case of African Americans (a diverse group themselves, but from my admittedly limited observations, generally sharing certain perspectives) the gross numbers really don’t tell you much; Mexican Americans as a group have a very different perspective than Cuban Americans, and Chinese and Japanese Americans are quite different from the Hmong. What’s really important from a diversity perspective is the overall vibe of the campus. And if you think that the Swarthmore campus in suburban Philly has a more diverse feel than the Temple campus downtown–whatever the total “nonwhite” percentage (sorry, wasn’t able to find the nonwhite numbers, but almost certainly lower than Swarthmore)–well, one of us is from Mars.</p>

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<p>Temple is 66% white. </p>

<p>It has a large African American enrollment 17%, but fairly small Asian American (10%), and almost no Hispanic (4%).</p>

<p>From your dismissal of Asian Americans in diversity numbers, it almost seems like you only want to count African Ameicans as being “diverse”. That seems like kind of an older view of diversity initiatives in higher education. That’s a throwback to the 60s and 70s diversity efforts.</p>

<p>As for your suggestion that Swarthmore may be using “affirmative action” to enroll Asian Americans, I think the more interesting question would be, “why isn’t the number higher at many peer schools?” How is it that Swarthmore, Princeton, and Harvard are all enrolling 15%+ Asian American students while so many peer schools are at 10%. Is it affirmative action at Swat, Harvard, and Princeton? Or a cap at other schools, like the “Jew quota” of the 1950s?</p>

<p>Asian Americans like Swarthmore, Wellesley, and Yale, but they don’t like Amherst as much? That doesn’t make any sense.</p>

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<p>ctyankee Given the tiny number of Swat engineering grads I don’t feel I can share that without risking identifying him. Which is also why I didn’t say where he ended up in grad school. I can say, tho, that the GS was the one he had identified in high school as where he wanted to go for a master’s. </p>

<p>I guess I’m glad he wasn’t reading CC or he might have been concerned about the possibility of a low Swat GPA keeping him out of grad school–and chosen another ug college instead.</p>

<p>If I could tiptoe into the campus culture debate with another small example. The son of former Republican Congressman Tom Davis from Virginia went to Swat. He was an outspoken conservative and certainly let his views be known on campus. If he was ever shouted down in debate–I have no idea whether he was–it didn’t bother him or his family, because his sister ALSO attended Swat a few years later. </p>

<p>I know there are all these “Kremlin on the Crum” stereotypes out there, but to find out about the realities of campus culture you need to ask actual Swat students.</p>

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<p>I knew the daughter had gone to Swarthmore. Didn’t know about the older brother. There’s a classic photo in the alumni magazine of then prominent Republican Rep. Tom Davis from Virgina (Swat parent) and head of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, Rep. Chris Von Hollen from Maryland (Swat alum) yukking it up together at a Swat event in D.C.</p>

<p>I’m really looking forward to the webcast of the first panel discussion during Chopp’s inauguration:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.swarthmore.edu/x28201.xml[/url]”>http://www.swarthmore.edu/x28201.xml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Edley is a real superstar and a close buddy of Obama’s. Saletin is a controversial Republican columist. I expect this to be a lively discussion.</p>

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<p>I guess, I would concur with Janesmith about professors helping out students who are middling (less than top 15% or even 20%) at Swarthmore. You need to be a student or a parent of a Swattie to know how effective the help was/is. All I can say is, even though my son was 2 years out of college, his professors had lunch/dinner with him, helped him with career planning, helped with his statement of purpose, of course his recs too and also told him who to contact at each of the graduate schools that he applied to. I feel that even though he did not get into a PhD program, he will in the future and that even the funded MA in a Humanities (which is rare) helps my family out a lot. If you go to competing graduate school forums (which I cannot mention here), you will see that many many people apply 2-3 years before they get into a funded Phd. </p>

<p>In any case, sorry if I’m rambling. It is hard to quantify what I’m saying. All I can say is, I am very grateful for the help my son got.</p>

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<p>It’s not rambling at all. It’s interesting. </p>

<p>Of course, professors need to build their own networks and part of that is supporting those that may (ultimately) support them in one form or another. Whether that supports reaches beyond the top 20 percent of students at other schools is a good question - it certainly did not happen at mine. So, that speaks well for Swarthmore.</p>

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<p>dstark - That’s why it’s an argument. Would you like to refute it?</p>

<p>EMM1 - Africans/African-Americans (yes, lumped together as Black for the purposes of statistics) are not any more monolithic than Latin@/Hispanic or APIA/APIA-American. But it doesn’t matter–Chinese students have a different perspective than Hmong students, but both have VERY different perspectives than your standard white middle-class student. I also disagree vehemently that the “vibe” of a school’s surrounding area is more important than that of the school itself.</p>

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<p>“I also disagree vehemently that the “vibe” of a school’s surrounding area is more important than that of the school itself.”</p>

<p>Reviewing my post, I see that I was not clear. The reference to the location of the two schools was simply meant to point out their geographical proximity, not to suggest that physical location was critical to “diversity.” Indeed, in terms of diversity, I believe that Penn (which is downtown) is closer to Swarthmore than to Temple.</p>

<p>“Africans/African-Americans (yes, lumped together as Black for the purposes of statistics) are not any more monolithic than Latin@/Hispanic or APIA/APIA-American.”</p>

<p>I recognized in the original post that African-Americans (or, American Blacks if you will) are diverse; I simply noted that with respect to certain attitudes, in my limited experience they appeared to be more united than the other two groups that are typically lumped together. Since I have no standing to speak for African-Americans–either individually or as a group–to elaborate any further would be inappropriate.</p>

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<p>^I see, I misread you on the location point.</p>

<p>In my own limited experience, ethnically Black peoples are loosely African or African-American–the former usually being immigrants with much greater emphasis on education and less keyed-in to American Black culture. I would compare this division as similar to East Asian vs. SE Asian or Latin@/Hispanics from South America vs. Mexico/Puerto Rico (and the Europeans from Spain, but I tend to think of that category as just taking advantage of a loophole).</p>

<p>I speak as an Asian woman of color, with some knowledge of anti-racism dialogue conventions. But now we digress ever further from the OP’s dilemma of OSU vs. Swarthmore! </p>

<p>OP: If you can afford (however your family defines “afford”) Swat and you would otherwise choose it over OSU if both were free (i.e. it’s a better “fit”), then I would recommend it to you.</p>

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<p>Keilexandra…I said what I wanted to say.</p>