OSU Full Ride or Swarthmore? Parent's perspective would be greatly appreciated!

Parents Forum
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<p>TheDad-- large percentage? Surely you jest. We live in a market based economy (and I know you don’t need data to point out just how aware of the market university administrators are.) I believe that if large percentages of college students and their parents wanted the LAC experience, U Mich and U Illinois and NYU and BU would be tearing up the concrete and installing small quads and greens and charging the same 50K for the Victorian Poetry seminar they’re already offering but not marketing as the LAC experience.</p>

<p>Seems to me that the demand and supply of LAC seats is about in equilibrium. The ones at the top (of which Swat is undoubtedly at the top of that pile) turn students away in droves. The ones at the bottom struggle to fill every seat. The ones in the middle compete with both better endowed private colleges and the behemoth of the state U’s. Doesn’t look to me like large numbers of students are trying to transfer from Harvard to Williams or from U Wisc to Beloit or from U Texas to Rhodes.</p>

<p>What is wrong with the tens of thousands of kids who enroll in large U’s every year? I am thrilled that your D’s experience validated your decision. I suspect that had she ended up at another fine institution- bigger or smaller, her experience would have validated that decision as well.</p>

<p>And to get back to the OP of this thread- it saddens me that adults can’t give a kid some unbiased counsel, especially if the parents are not as experienced as some of us are. The advice that he’s gotten has mostly taken the tone of, “well sure, take the free ride, since you’re clearly too careerist or narrow-minded to understand how life-altering the Swat experience could be, and why should any of us care about your parents finances?”</p>

<p>This makes me sad. Yes, LAC’s are great places. But I know kids whose lives have been changed by CUNY and Rutgers and Southern Connecticut State. And it must rankle those kids to learn that they were chumps and that someone from an LAC is out there “running rings” around their experience.</p>

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<p>As I said before, from what I know, I think Swat is a terrific place for a student if the fit is good. BUT is it really is not necessary to insult the other option on the table here? So Swat kids will run rings around smart big U kids? Wow. I don’t care if you went to big U and therefore consider yourself an expert, but that observation is both rude and inaccurate. </p>

<p>To Briguy…I hope you are getting closer to your decision. An maybe you’ll find some nuggets of wisdom buried in this thread if you really dig. </p>

<p>In any case, just remember your choices are excellent, both of them. Most kids would do handstands to get that scholarship from OSU. Or to be accepted to Swat. The best of luck to you. And please come back and post when you graduate to tell us how well you’re doing. I have a feeling you’ll thrive in either place.</p>

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<p>Blossom, please don’t think I have it in for the large school experience. They give more folks a great education than the LACs which by size and number are limited. There are also drawbacks to small colleges, a big one being the lack of choices if things are not right for a kid. There is just so much more available in a big school, as a general rule. </p>

<p>Many of my friends went to the large unis, and many of my friends’ kids, my kids’ friends and one of my kids went to large unis. Many had a wonderful experience and would not have traded it for anything. Some left smaller schools that they hated before making the switch. This is truly an orange/apples comparison. When you are looking at colleges, it is entirely possible that you child likes some big schools and some small schools just about equally, because things like class size, lectures, TAs, bureacracy, claustrophobia, limitations, homogeniety, seclusion, do not occur to them. When my sons did their visits, they really were more focused on the “feel” of a place and two schools that are nearly the same in category could give them a different feel.</p>

<p>It’s just when deciding where to go, all of the drawbacks as well as advantages of the schools on the list need to be listed. I tend to be an LAC parent. Partly because I like the idea of a smaller environment with more adult attention that such schools can give. Not as overwhelming, not as much to check out. More manageable. That does not mean that there are not draw backs. A number of LACs, for example, would not have the courses for my current college sophomore in the field that he wants. He had no idea that he would be doing this two years ago, and not even a year ago, so it was not even in the picture. But had it been on his list, a number of LACs would have been crossed off just for that reason. He is fortunate to have chosen a LAC that has the depth and breadth in advanced mathematics. </p>

<p>However, there are some traits that he had and has that would have made a large school a problem for him. He is not particularly aware, does not seek attention and help, is not organized, has trouble with paperwork. I can see him having the same problems a number of friend have had with their kids who missed the boat on some things at large schools, and it was just “Sorry, Charlie”, whereas smaller schools are more likely to have someone taking an interest. My second son who is observant, and likes to check out everything and likes having a lot of choices enjoyed every aspect of his large school. Yes, the small department was instrumental, in my opinion, in getting him through in 4 years, but he would have been one big pain in the neck for a small school. His high school which is a small private one, had had their fill of him. He truly was too big and smelled too bad for them. Needed more space.</p>

<p>There are kids that can do well in any environment, and then there are those who need things in place to squeak by. My kids, none of them, look and looked to me, mature enough for a big uni experience. For the same money, and even a bit more up to what we can afford, I, as a parent to those kids, prefer to have them in a LAC. Not that they will end up there, nor will I force them there.</p>

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<p>

Oh, please. I have NEVER implied that, and have stated explicitly to the contrary more than once.</p>

<p>I know people who picked a state U over an elite LAC and have never regretted it. I know just as many people who picked an elite LAC over a state U (at a price premium) and have also never regretted it. I know a smaller minority of people in both groups who did regret their decisions.</p>

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<p>CPT- thank you for that very nuanced post.</p>

<p>I think that if this thread had been filled with tales of experience like yours, it would have been helpful to the OP. (i.e. this was our experience. YMMV). But he seems to have disappeared just as the debate about what is more diverse… a college of 2K students with 10% of a certain race (i.e. 200 kids) or a college of 30K kids with only 5% of that race (i.e. 1500 kids). Pity those of us who think that 1500 is a bigger number than 200. And then came, “But at Universities you are taught by grad students who don’t speak English” with a pile-on about research opportunities, indifferent faculty who are paid for research not teaching, and the value of the thread seemed to come apart. Plus the snarky comments that if the OP really cared about the time/value of money he clearly belonged at OSU where “his people” are vs. at Swat where the nobility are too busy curing malaria to care about lucre.</p>

<p>Keil, you must live in a rarified world if you actually know more people at LAC’s than at state U’s. </p>

<p>CPT, thank you for your well reasoned post. I hope the OP comes back by midnight.</p>

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<p>I think most of the posters have been very balanced (including keil and cpt). Although this thread IS hard to get through (some very long posts!). Hope our OP gets something of use here…</p>

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<p>TR, I was very careful in what I wrote: I didn’t say that Swat kids would run rings around the State U kids, I said their experiences would. A very different statement. </p>

<p>Blossom, D would have had a fine experience at a large U. But I could make a fairly list of item after item where the LAC optimized for her and the large U wouldn’t. A small datum that’s illustrative of a global difference in attitude:</p>

<p>while on visits during junior year, D e-mailed orchestra directors about meeting when she was going to be on campus. </p>

<p>The orchestra director for Columbia…not even a State U…e-mailed back: “Get admitted to Columbia, come to the audition, then we can talk.” </p>

<p>The orchestra director from Smith set up a scheduled appointment for the day we were going to be there. He beckoned us over when they were finishing up and when he found we weren’t leaving for New Haven until the morning, he turned to D and said, “We’re rehearsing tonight. Why don’t you come and sit with your section on stage while we rehearse?” And every single aspect of her ultimate experience was like that.</p>

<p>Consider four years of classes and <em>never</em> taking a test using a Scantron form…and the implications of that.</p>

<p>When we went back for graduation and stopped by various departmental receptions for the seniors, it was boggling the number of professors who knew D and knew her well on a first name basis…the number of “call me any time you need a rec” professors. At State U, two words: ain’t happening. One to three would be typical.</p>

<p>Tailoring an entire junior year away to encompass both of her double majors at no increase in cost beyond normal tuition, split between Washington, DC and Budapest.</p>

<p>An academic climate where discussions begun in the classroom rolled over into lunch, then dinner, then study breaks over a drink late a night, a byproduct of classes where there’s no room to hide.</p>

<p>Multiple layers of superb academic advising: freshman, major(s), career, plus the informal but serious ones from interested professors to upperclassmen within the house. (Years ago, I was a counselor within UC…I know the difference in the amount of
resources available.) A guarantee…a requirement, actually…of graduating in four years.</p>

<p>Consider self-scheduled finals and an Honor Code…and if you’re absolutely not a morning person, the implications of <em>that</em>.</p>

<p>In the words of Yul Brynner, “Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera…”</p>

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<p>Again, a pile on.</p>

<p>You had me at “hello”.</p>

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<p>Hardly a pile on. A refutation of any notion that there aren’t significant differences between an LAC and a large uni and all the tap dancing about tens of thousands of kids enrolling in large state U’s or students having life-changing experiences at CUNY/Rutgers/Directional State neither changes nor minimalizes the fact.</p>

<p>PS: I suspect I’d have you more at “good bye.”</p>

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<p>TheDad, Many “experiences” of kids at State U would “run rings” around the experiences of kids at Swat. They are just different environments, opportunities. The OP is probably either a OSU or Swat type of kid . Only he can make that final call. Et cetera,et cetera, et cetera.</p>

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<p>“A refutation of any notion that there aren’t significant differences between an LAC and a large uni and all the tap dancing about tens of thousands of kids enrolling in large state U’s or students having life-changing experiences at CUNY/Rutgers/Directional State neither changes nor minimalizes the fact.”</p>

<p>I don’t think I’ve read anything on this thread about OSU and Swat being the same. Hardly. </p>

<p>Idad…you should work in marketing for Swat or Smith. I do promotional writing myself and I know you would put together a darn good brochure. </p>

<p>But I good write a darn good brochure for the honors college at OSU too. Kids like the OP, smart, high achieving students can get many special opportunities at a place like OSU. OSU has a bunch of fulbright scholars this year. Would you call that an opportunity? The engaged students at a big U are studying abroad, working with top research professors, doing their OWN research and thriving in small discussion groups. We’re not comparing the standard big U experience with Swat. </p>

<p>It sound to me that you pity a kid who is a good match for Swat yet goes to OSU Honors. No pity needed. Both are exceptional opportunities…and yes different. It’s a shame that YOU don’t see that. Some of us do.</p>

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<p>Blossom, I know a number of academically strong kids who crashed at excellent LACs because the atmosphere was hostile towards them. In larger schools, they could find more variety, because there is more just due to the numbers. Being a conservative, for instance, in some of the highly liberal LACs can be rough. Also, kids who decide they do not want to do 4 years of liberal arts but want to go into more technical fields are out of luck in many LACs. My neighbor transferred to NYU after two years at a small Catholic school after taking the most advanced art and graphics courses there. When she decided she wanted to go farther, they did not have anything for her. The same goes if someone decides to go into accounting or education at some schools. It can involve a convoluted course of action including taking courses at schools that cost a fraction of that LAC with you paying the full LAC cost for that privilege. </p>

<p>But as a mom looking at schools for some immature, uncertain, non passioned learners, the LACs look pretty good. Are they worth the price differentials that usually exist? Umm. Depends on how much of a financial hit the family is taking, and your personal priorities.</p>

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<p>TR, find one post where I indicate I pity anyone who goes to OSU. This is the second time you’ve projected something on me that I’ve neither said nor implied. Do I believe a top LAC is a better option for many/most students? Yes. Do I pity any who don’t take it? Not in the least. It leaves the slots for those who really want it.
What I <em>am</em> for is a thoroughly examined choice free of the “large is better” outlook. CoH’s posts capture it pretty well.</p>

<p>CoH: LAC’s can be great for high achievers as well. You point about possibly running into limitations on certain course sequences is well taken, which is where active multi-college consortiums can be of help. Cf., Claremont or the Five Colleges. For D, the semester of Math in the BSM program was like early grad school in Math…gave her a taste of what her LAC couldn’t provide and also convinced her she didn’t want to go into Math graduate programs.</p>

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<p>OK…thedad…could you tell me who in this thread is saying that there are no significant differences between a Big U and a LAC? </p>

<p>So perhaps I’m reading too much into your posts…guilty as charged. But I detect a very different tone than…lets say CPT. </p>

<p>You wax on about how wonderful the LAC experience is - in great detail…and say very little that’s good about the big u experience. How can you say a great percentage of students would have a better experience at a LAC? What are you basing that on? Is that true if you’re looking a top students who get into elites LACS but make other choices? Is there a study out there that I need to know about?</p>

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<p>Swarthmore - nothing is even close!</p>

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<p>^Wow, the argument starts all over again.</p>

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<p>Indeed, great experiences to be sure. Yet, they are largely anecdotal in nature rather than promised or guaranteed in such a way as to allow one to definitively talk about running 'rings" around anything. One could just as easily run off a list of their experiences to the negative during their time at an LAC. In fact, various and sundry experiences, positive and negative alike, could be enumerated on behalf of those at just about any school. It proves nothing other than you like the school and your D had a great time there. </p>

<p>I too personally love the experience promoted by LACs. However, the whole “superiority of experience” being claimed is simply not the sole, or even overweighted, domain of LACs. Nor is it even universal among all LACs. </p>

<p>D1 had some truly amazing experiences and did some things at State U that could not even be remotely touched by a small LAC, including the one I attended. People talk about being a big fish in a small pond. Well, how about becoming a big fish in a big pond? Nothing like it in my opinion, for the right person. She also had many encounters and occurrences of the type some people only seem to think happen at an LAC. Yet, D2 is also doing some very special things at her LAC, W&L, which equally blows me away - simply incredible stuff that is second to none. </p>

<p>My point is that despite their experiences having been drawn from very different venues, neither has been precluded from fabulously world class educational experiences. And the greatest factor contributing to the magnitude of their equally inspiring experiences has been their own individuality. And no one here on CC can account for the latter on either side of the equation for another student. I think that ought to be considered before we go spouting off about how one school offers such a higher quality of experiences than another. </p>

<p>OP asked for some opinions, comments, and experiences that might help him make a decision. Many have offered just that. But much of the proselytizing is really unhelpful IMO.</p>

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<p>nice post flavadad</p>

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<p>Your visit to Swarthmore will be extremely important for making this decision. Our daughter is a sophomore there. I am a professor at a large, public university and teach honors students regularly so I have some sense of what you are trying to compare. You will have some stimulating academic opportunities and small classes in the honors program at OSU. Some of the honors students will be the intellectual peers of Swarthmore students. The OSU honors program (especially if there is an honors dorm) will give you a small community within a huge community. On the potential downside, some of the honors students will be more parochial in interest than are Swarthmore students: OSU students may be smart but may not consumed with a passion and curiosity about learning. By contrast, Swarthmore really tries to admit students with that passion. At OSU, you may also feel like you are in a huge, anonymous institution when you are not with that honors sub-group. You may love that major, big-ten university environment (in which case you should go there). When you visit Swarthmore you will immediately see if you would prefer being “where everyone knows your name.” You will see how beautiful and intimate a campus Swarthmore is and get a sense if that fits you. Also, while the honors program students will be a small sub-set of students who are passionate about learning, at OSU you will be part of a much larger campus where many students will not be passionate about learning. By contrast, at Swarthmore, everyone is passionate about learning (I’m not just saying that - my daughter has mentioned that she loves being around others who love to learn). My daughter has never felt constrained by the small size of the school; instead, she is thriving. With so much intellectual intensity, it really helps to have close bonds with other students. When you visit Swarthmore you will see a community that consists of the whole college - virtually all of the students live in dorms (there are virtually no apartment dwellers) and they all eat in a common dining room. 40% of the students are international or students of color so there is amazing diversity and shared experiences of diversity. Given the small size of the institution and the expectations for faculty research (equivalent to OSU), there are many opportunities for research with faculty. This year, my daughter was spending a lot of time in the organic chemistry and biology labs and her professors were always there working on their own projects. She was able to ask them for help when her homework confused her or if she was having trouble with some of the lab equipment. The accessibility is amazing; by contrast, at OSU, even honors undergrads are not going to have the attention of the professors, who will be focusing on the Ph.D. students. One key thing that we have been told about Swarthmore is that in addition to getting an outstanding education that will open doors to any graduate or professional school in the country you also will become part of the Swarthmore alumni network. The bonds among Swatties are for life and can lead to wonderful opportunities over the years. One caveat: if you are visiting next week, students will be in week one of their two weeks of finals. Please keep in mind that this is what they look and sound like after giving 110% of their energy for 16 weeks for learning. They may have a few dark circles under their eyes. Also, you will miss out on sitting in on a class - which is what sealed it for my daughter when she visited. But you will still be able to get a strong feel for the place. Both of your options are excellent ones and I’m sure that your family is very proud of your achievements.</p>

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<p>

An interesting point, but not necessarily a relevant one. The student admitted to <em>insert elite school here</em> probably has the equipment necessary to stand out at <em>insert solid state university here</em>.</p>

<p>The question is whether they have the motivation.

Your daughter’s experience at her LAC was obviously wonderful. I’m glad for her. But since she did not also attend State U as an undergrad you cannot accurately compare her experience to what she might have had elsewhere. You’re implicitly using a false hypothesis to reach illogical conclusions.</p>

<p>The same applies to basically any of your other marvelous anecdotes.

Even consortia do not offer anywhere near the same breadth of graduate level courses available at a large, mathematically-strong research university.</p>

<p>I think there are certain students who will thrive best at LACs (Keilexandra is one on this forum). There are many reasons they may do better in that setting. The same is true of large universities. You’re certainty that the “experiences” of LAC kids will overshadow those of kids at State U is an unwarranted value judgment. You assume that an outgoing professor is better than one who attracts major research projects, that universally intellectual peers are superior to those with a wide variety of educational goals, and that discussion groups are inherently preferable to lectures. For many students, these things will all be true. But it depends on the individual.</p>