<p>“EDIT: What’s up with Investment Banking coming up in every discussion that compares colleges? It’s not like Front Office recruitment makes or breaks a school. Most people (even though they don’t know it yet) would rather not work in the industry. The hours are terrible and the work is mind-numbing (analyst and associate level work at least). The pay, after the crash, isn’t that great once you account for taxes and the cost of living in NYC. Don’t even try to calculate earnings on a per-hour basis, you’ll just get depressed.”</p>
<p>Excellent point Infinit. IBanking and Management Consulting are horribly overrated. People working in those industries are miserable and too blind to notice. However, those two industries are great places for 22-26 year olds to work. People at that age usually do not families of their own, so the hours are manageable and the experience gained invaluable. But once a person gets to the associate level, it is time to get an MBA or change industries.</p>
<p>Just ran through the list again. Shouldn’t NYU be on there somewhere? I thought Stern kids would do alright, especially considering their proximity.</p>
<p>NYU did not make the top 10, though they are among the top 20. Maybe it is because they place more students into other IBanks such as Merrill and Citi. Others that had impressive numbers were Brown, Cal, Chicago, Georgetown, Lehigh (???), MIT, Northwestern, Notre Dame, UVa, and UT-Austin.</p>
<p>OSU has been pretty good at football in recent years. U-M has had its woes during the past few years, but Maize & Blue are definitely prettier colors than Scarlet & Gray.</p>
<p>OSU is doing pretty well this year in basketball, too, although U-M’s young team is getting better and should do well next year, too.</p>
<p>From an academic standpoint, U-M is a notably more prestigious public school than OSU, but it also depends on your grades. If you screw up at U-M, it really doesn’t matter.</p>
<p>If you’re set on going to grad school (which you may or may not be, I don’t know) you may do better going to OSU. I’m pretty sure it’s been posted around CC from time to time, that students in the top of their class at schools like Ohio State often do better in grad school admissions than those who go to a more competitive school and are in the middle to bottom of their class. That’s something to think about.</p>
<p>I am not sure graduate schools in general, but Law schools certainly seem to give Michigan students an edge over OSU students. For example, Harvard, Yale and Chicago have on average anywhere from 50-60 Michigan alums enrolled in their program at any point in time. Additionally, Michigan Law school typically has 150 Michigan alums enrolled in its program. OSU typically has between 5 and 10 at Harvard, Yale and Chicago and another 10 or so at Michigan. In total, Michigan has over 200 alums enrolled at those 4 top 7 Law schools while OSU has fewer than 20. When you consider that OSU us 40% larger than Michigan, even if factor in the fact that Michigan may be slightly more pre-professional and have a stronger student body, that 10:1 difference is too glaring to ignore.</p>
<p>I don’t think it makes a difference where Medical schools are concerned, but for Law schools, I think it makes a difference.</p>
That’s because U of M’s smartest students are more qualified than OSU’s best students so the former will do much better on the LSAT. Also, many OSU grads want to practice law in Ohio so they have no reservations about going to OSU Law and probably aren’t as intent on applying to the top national law schools as Michigan graduates.</p>
<p>
I don’t think this is true at all. Michigan and Ross have a great relationship with JPM and McKinsey so you happened to data mine for the 2 of the 3 strongest recruiters of Ross grads out of the top 10 IBanks and MBB with Citigroup being the 3rd.</p>
<p>From what friends from both LSA and Ross have told me, Barclays and BAML have little to no presence at Michigan. Also, Morgan Stanley only recruits at Ross and Bain only recruits at Michigan for its Chicago office. I don’t think Michigan is a particularly strong target for Deutsche Bank or Credit Suisse either. Moelis, a top boutique, has a strong relationship with Ross though on that end.</p>
<p>Basically, its hard to infer from this limited set of data you have provided us. Even among the top private schools, Bain doesn’t recruit at Columbia so a more comprehensive survey of the top 10 IBanks and MBB needs to be done to accurately gauge school representation. The top 10 schools from my experience and in conversations with other well connected to the finance/consulting are the 7 Ivies besides Brown and Stanford, Duke and Georgetown. The competition at Michigan will be a lot stiffer than at any of those 10 schools due to the school’s large class size and high interest in business among the Wolverine student body.</p>
<p>At any rate, UofM is in a different league academically and jobwise than OSU.</p>
<p>Your friends at LSA and Ross are either downplaying the facts (Wolverines tend to be modest) or they are not aware of the numbers. Ross’ numbers are published LDB. They are not open to debate. The number of Ross students who join Citi, Deutsche, UBS, Morgan Stanley and Credit Suisse are listed below and are pretty significant. Even BoA has been recruiting consistantly for a few years. Barclays is the only major IBank that does not recruit too actively in the past, although that too is changing:</p>
<p>2005:
Citi 4
Credit Suisse 10
Deutsche 6
Morgan Stanley 4
UBS 11</p>
<p>2006:
Citi 7
Credit Suisse 14
Deutsche 7
Morgan Stanley 5
UBS 10</p>
<p>2007:
Citi 10
Credit Suisse 8
Deutsche 7
Morgan Stanley 2
UBS 5</p>
<p>2008:
Citi 5
Credit Suisse 10
Deutsche 7
Morgan Stanley 7
UBS 11</p>
<p>2009 (the year the worst recession in three decates hit global markets):
Citi 7
Credit Suisse 6
Deutsche 3
Morgan Stanley 5
UBS 1</p>
<p>2010:
Citi 11
Credit Suisse 2
Deutsche 6
Morgan Stanley 3
UBS 6</p>
<p>Six year total:
Citi 44
Credit Suisse 50
Deutsche 36
Morgan Stanley 26
UBS 44</p>
<p>Those are just figures from Ross. Although CoE and LSA are not nearly as well recruited, they each place several students annually.</p>
<p>Like I said, I do not have high-placed friends in HR at those firms, but Ross clearly places many of its students into those 5 IBanks. I would not be surprised if Michigan were as highly recruited as Goldman Sachs, JPM and McKinsey. </p>
<p>Also, I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that only Bain’s Chicago office recruits at Michigan. I obviously do not have evidence to prove otherwise, but even if it were true, why would it matter? Consulting firms do not operate like Investment Banks. The Chicago Bain office would be as active and as</p>
<p>Alexandre: This must be at least the third or fourth time you have explained this situation to LBD in order to refute his nonsense. HE DOESN’T GET IT OR REFUSES TO ACCEPT IT! It’s really annoying that he continues to spew his anti-Michigan rhetoric on the Michigan boards.</p>
<p>Alex only listed the BBA full-time hire figures. These companies also hired a bunch of Ross interns. For example, in 2010, Citi hired 12 BBA interns, Credit Suisse 8, Deutsche Bank 3. and UBS 5. Bain hired 5 Ross MBA and 5 BBA in 2010. Are these all for their Chicago office?</p>
<p>According to my Ross contact, Deutsche Bank actively recruites at Ross. They even hire internationals.</p>
<p>rjkofnovi, while I know that LBD has said some anti-Michigan stuff on other threads, I don’t really see anything wrong with his/her comments on this thread. He makes a lot of valid points, but I do have to scoff at his comment about Georgetown being a bigger target than Michigan. </p>
<p>“Georgetown? I wouldn’t let my maids’ kids go there”. Sure it was written in jest…but there’s no denying there’s a bit of that attitude. </p>
<p>Yes, he underestimates Michigan, but he has not said anything that is blatantly false. Also Alexandre makes a good point that in Consulting it matters less where the office is based. Chicago isn’t a deathtrap for consulting as it is for the Corporate Finance aspect of Investment Banking. </p>
<p>But really guys…I think that a vast majority of people on this board care about other things besides how much love schools receive from MBB and BBs. Especially at a time when we could use more smart people in other fields</p>
<p>Sure, Investment Banks and other financial firms play a vital role in the economy, but as a nation we spend 7% of our GDP on financial services. That’s insane. I just read somewhere that 25% of MIT grads go work on Wall Street. I mean talk about a mis-allocation of resources. I’d rather have those minds working in the tech industry or curing cancer or something. Sure, a large portion of the profit that the top hedge funds make go directly into philanthropic causes, but we also need more smart people working in the fields where all this money is being sent to. </p>
<p>I realize that this isn’t Wall Street’s fault, F500 companies need start paying their engineers more, especially the senior ones. Engineering pay may be good in the beginning, but it levels off very early. Smart kids realize that through Finance they could potentially be making 350k-700k by 30, if they start right out of undergrad, and they also know that they would probably be making only 90k as a 30 year old engineer. The choice is pretty obvious. [/Rant]</p>
<p>Now that that’s over with, I can finally brag about how JPM is dominating the league tables: </p>
<p>Infinit, LDB says much that is blatantly flase. For example, in post #31, he clearly stated that Michigan is not a major target for Credit Suisse and Deutsche when in fact, Michigan is definitely one of its main hunting grounds. Recruiting 6-14 students from a program year-in, year-out is very impresive. You would not be able to find more than 5-10 universities that enjoy such success.</p>
<p>I don’t know how to break it to you Alex but the figures you provided for Ross are simply not that impressive when compared to the Ivies, Duke and Stanford.</p>
<p>I could provide you with Duke’s figures but you would probably be skeptical because I’m biased towards my alma mater so lets look at the College of Arts and Sciences at UPenn as a proxy and compare it to Ross for those same IBanks.</p>
<p>Six year total:
Citi: 57
Credit Suisse: 36
Deutsche: 23
Morgan Stanley: 46
UBS: 40</p>
<p>WOW!!! Michigan Ross and UPenn CAS scarily have almost the same level of recruitment with 202 Quakers entering those 5 IBanks in comparison to 200 Wolverines. Deutsche and Credit Suisse seems to target Ross more while Citi and Morgan Stanley seems to favor Penn CAS kids while UBS recruits about evenly at both.</p>
<p>As you can see Alex, Penn CAS BY ITSELF is as good as Ross in placing students into top IBanks without even taking into account SEAS and Wharton. It’s important to note that Penn CAS is not quite as Dartmouth, Duke, Columbia, Stanford, Yale, et al. since Wharton absorbs such a large share of the attention of the recruiters who visit Penn. </p>
<p>Its logical to assume that the figures as a whole for a school like Cornell or Duke would be better than Penn CAS without taking into account Wharton. Since Ross is about as good as Penn CAS and LSA/CoE at Michigan barely get any recruitment, it’s safe to assume that the Ivies, Duke, Stanford, Chicago, etc. are stronger targets than Michigan for IBanks on Wall Street.</p>
<p>
Michigan, Ross or not, barely gets any recruitment from BAML, Barclays, RBC, BNP Paribas Macquarie, Wells Fargo, etc. as well as top consulting firms besides MBB like Parthenon, Oliver Wyman, Cambridge Associates, Mars & Co., etc. so its reach into the world into the consulting and finance is not as large as some of the top private schools you like to compare it to.</p>
<p>
My senior friend at Ross told me that Bain only had resume drops for the Chicago office for all Michigan (Ross, CoE and LSA) applicants. My point with that statement was to illustrate that the geographical reach of a Michigan degree is not quite extensive in all areas as it is for the top private schools. If someone prefers to live in New York, Atlanta or LA coming out of UofM, they do not have that option if they want to work for Bain. At Duke, for instance, the students can apply to whatever US office they want since Bain considers the school a “national target”.</p>
<p>
Dude, I think we read the same TechCrunch article haha. Here’s the scoop for those of you interested:</p>
<p>They note that the finance sector today produces a greater percentage of GDP than at any time in history. In the mid-nineteenth century, its contribution was between 1 percent and 2.5 percent of GDP. It peaked at around six percent of GDP at the beginning of the Great Depression, and then fell sharply. Since 1945 it has been steadily increasing, to 8.4 percent over the last two years.</p>
<p>An analysis of MITs graduate-employment data shows that the financial sector increased its hiring from 18 percent of its graduates in 2003 to 25 percent in 2006. So not only are the investment banks siphoning off hundreds of billions of dollars from our economy with financial gimmicks like CDOs; they are using our best engineering graduates to help them do it. This is the talent that our country has invested so much resource in producing.</p>
<p>Look I think Michigan is a fantastic academic institution; it is definitely a top 15 school if you want to work on Wall Street and its reputation in the business world exceeds half of the private schools ranked above it. However, it is wrong for Alexandre to suggest that Michigan is a top 5 school in the world of Finance/Consulting and give prospective students the misleading perspective that they won’t be better off if they study at Yale, Stanford, Dartmouth, Cornell, etc. because they will. There’s less students at those schools competing for these jobs as there is at Michigan and these coveted firms hire more aggressively at the aforementioned private schools.</p>
<p>Edit: I stand corrected about Michigan’s success with Deutsche Bank and Credit Suisse.</p>
<p>LDB, I am not misleading others. I am an authority on this subject, 100% neutral when it comes to comparing universities and I know exactly what I am talking about. Just because I respect Michigan and accord it due respect does not mean I inflate it as you seem to suggest. I chose Michigan over school such as Cal, Chicago, Columbia, Cornell and Duke because it roughly equal academically and reputationally but offers an undergraduate experience more in line with my expectations than the other schools. Assuming schools are peers, I would encourage students to pick a school for fit. </p>
<p>Comparing Ross to Penn CAS is pointless. Penn CAS is almost 5 times larger than Ross. That it places the same number of students into top IBanks and Consulting firms is not surprising. But Penn CAS is definitely impressive in this regard, which is why it publishes placement data so freely in the first place. Most elite schools simply do not have sufficiently high placement rates into major companies to publish such data without drawing the wrong sort of attention. Let us be honest, there is a reason why most private elites (including Duke) do not publish placement data. I would love to see a detailed report on where Duke students go to work. </p>
<p>When it comes to IBanking and Management Consulting placement at Michigan, you have Ross and the rest of the university. Placement from Ross into exclusive industries is hard to beat. Wharton is one of the few programs/universities than bests it. Harvard is the only University that does. Contrary to what some on CC think and say, Columbia, Dartmouth, Duke and Stanford do not offer better opportunities than Ross. In terms of placement rates, Ross has all of those schools beat…and I am referring to placement rates among students who actually apply for such jobs.</p>
<p>In terms of raw numbers, Michigan (the entire university) places more undergrads into Goldman Sachs, JPM and McKinsey than all but four universities. Michigan also places more students into top graduate schools than all but 4 universities. I stand by my estimation that if you were to expend that study to include the top 10 IBanks and Bain and BCG, Michigan would remain in or near the top 5 in terms of total numbers. Of course, Michigan is also larger than all of its peers. Overall, Michigan is certainly one of the top 15 or 20 universities (not including LACs) for placement into exclusive industries, but Ross is one of the top 5.</p>
<p>Once LDB gets on a thread, you might as well close it. They all become these long drawn out lists of statistics between LDB and Alexandre that are worth the time it takes to click on the thread. The thread always goes off point once LDB gets on. Is there a way to ban him from the U-M forum?</p>