Parent Concern Over School's Support of Extracurricular Project

Parents Forum
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<p>Homeschoolmom...I do get your point about supervision. Just to clarify, this was not at night but all rehearsals but about two were held after school. No adult was in the theater during any of that time. Music staff are often in the building on that corridor but just doing their normal stuff, not truly involved in this group. The building was filled with people. I realize there is still a responsibility there but I am just saying they were not directly supervising them in that space or staying extra or longer to accommodate them in any capacity. They pretty much left them to their own devices. I also think if that still felt like too much responsibility or work, the solution is to just ask the parents or students if they can find someone to sponsor and supervise this year, not be down on the project. His reluctance had to do with other vague things like his feeling that the group was a clique which as I said was not a group that is necessarily friends outside of theater but did gel in this project, much like my other D's varsity soccer team gels as a group over their shared passion but are not necessarily friends outside that endeavor. </p>

<p>Cheers, I do appreciate your take on this. In this situation, while it is true that my D was the creator/director of the endeavor, it was not her sole project, but involved 10 other kids who also were very passionate about this additional theatar opportunity that filled a lull in the school year. I don't think it is really about my D necessarily in particular. I can't say that for sure, mind you. </p>

<p>Let me also say that while I am not a native Vermonter, a HUGE majority of students at this school ALSO are not native Vermont families because we live ina resort area where many are transplants to VT for the lifestyle or other reasons. While we do have lower income folks and kids not heading to college, we also have some families of means whose parents hold professional jobs and kids who are excellent students striving for selective schools...there is a mix. I do understand your points, however. In general, though, kids who excel or may be gifted, often have a difficult row to hoe in certain settings that are not as tuned into this type of learner. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>Yes,
Its a definite pattern. Some of the better colleges are willing to look at juniors, and more juniors know they had better graduate on good terms than be bored silly in a senior year. Your D, my S, others here have taken this route. What I resent is that the school gets paid more for the 'truly gifted' but don't provide anything special. Your D's project will take staff time, and the liability risk is reality. Perhaps a talent show in HS (is that done yearly?) could use a few of her ideas.
I have no doubt that your D will find other ways to use her time, and her talents will be appreciated in the lucky college she will attend.
PS--Already one of S's friends is applying early, and I'm sure others will follow.</p>

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<p>Susan, my heart goes out to you for the frustration you feel on your daughter's behalf. She is clearly a star and will make such a mark on the world. I have been in public education for what is probably too long, and I have seen in it jealousy and lack of support not just by faculty for the gifted student, but faculty against other faculty, fighting to be top dog, or get the best talent, or get the theater "space" at the most opportune times. Sadly, it seems too like a microcosm of this jealous world. I still believe she will find her space in this world, will make her space in it, and I know you can't wait. For what it is worth, I think that you should go to school to hear the teacher out, even if it is irritating. The intention would be just to hear what he has to say. Maybe there is nothing there except more irritation, but at least you would know for sure what you were dealing with. Just a thought.</p>

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<p>People who "do" rather than just "talk" soon find out that accomplishing the things they set out to do become the art of the possible. If you have ever sat on a library board, city park board, cemetary board you over time realize that great ideas and projects frequently evolve into less than what the original plan was. Now and again you get lucky and every thing goes just right and you have a huge success.</p>

<p>Thats the lesson in all of this. Individuals with your daughters ability to put a project together must learn that succes is not always guarenteed for any number of reasons. The trick is not to turn sour on the process. she and you have to say to your self ok this concept is not going to work exactly as I like it this time around, the options are scaling back and doing what is possible or moving on to the next project. Giving up on the process (for those committed to bringing thier dreams to reality) is not an option</p>

<p>your daughter will be just fine now that you have vented its time to move past this bump in the road and be supportive of your daughters next great idea consider your self blessed that your daughter has the abilities she does and encourage her to be a force for positive in this world, and that those gifted with such abilities are going to run into roablocks now and again. when the roadblocks become to great on a particular venture its not a death blow to ones creative ability. is rather simply time to re access and find another project to do.</p>

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<p>Go for the "off-campus" production. It'll be just terrific! Pull all possible strings to get every person interested in theater for 500 miles around to attend.</p>

<p>That chorus "teacher".... is his name Leonard Skinner by any chance? </p>

<p>At the end of the performance, be sure to give every participant a genuine "Lynyrd Skynyrd Award"----a glossy 8x10 photo of a very straight line of chairs.</p>

<p>For those unfamiliar with the rock group Lynyrd Skynyrd, the band 'remembered' a high school teacher named Leonard Skinner who absolutely hated their long hair and made their lives difficult.</p>

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<p>Okay, maybe I'm just not smart enough but I think you're overanalyzing this way too much. Just go to the meeting and see what's up. How can you spend all this time speculating what the problem is when the easy solution is to meet with the man? I don't think it's going over your daughters head. You are the adult and he wants to meet with you.</p>

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<p>I am so curious about the proposed meeting with the music teachers. You should go. It may be that the music people will share more what their concerns are with you than they have with your daughter. As grown up as she is on some levels, perhaps they don't feel comfortable talking about everything with a 15 year old (or is it 16?). Perhaps they could clarify under what conditions they would support your daughter's project, if any. A meeting could, at least, give you some more insight into their perspective, for good or bad, give you more of an indication of whether their concerns are legitimate or they are just being jerks. It may be that they like the idea, but feel an adult ought to be involved at some level, even if it is just to supervise and make sure everything is put away, or that some other, possibly minor, changes should be made. It may be that they . . . Ah heck, who knows! Do let us know how this plays out if you decide to meet with them. </p>

<p>At any rate, you have an amazing child. Best wishes during the upcoming audition/application season!</p>

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<p>Yeah, what mstee said. That was a much better response then mine!</p>

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<p>Susan, if I were you I would be feeling the same way on behalf of my daughter. At the same time, though, I know how hard a time teachers in the fine and performing arts have...In most parts of the country they struggle to be taken seriously and to persuade the admins with the deep pockets that what they teach is valid and serious. I am guessing you couldn't have come this far with your daughters without discovering that as well. That is why I would want to approach them, as mstee said, in a spirit of learning what their perspective is.</p>

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<p>Soozie-- I'm going against the grain here. Your daughter sounds over-committed as it is, and maybe this is a blessing in disguise for all of you. This is her last year at home... maybe it's a sign that you two should be taking long walks or baking cookies during her limited leisure time, instead of you hauling her off to another round of rehearsals and planning meetings and her eating dinner in the car.</p>

<p>What does she need to prove by moving the production off-campus? That she can lead and direct? She knows that already. Next August she leaves town and you and your husband are still around, running into every jerk she may have inadvertently offended...</p>

<p>I am quite superstitious about these sorts of things, and so to me, this is a clear sign from some higher power that your daughter should redirect her energies for now. Enough time to direct and perform once she gets to college....</p>

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<p>Hey guys, you are all so great. I, too, think before she throws in the towel and gives up, there ought to be closure or an understanding of where this all stands and I am not totally clear on it. BEFORE I read the above posts this evening, I talked to her, where else? in the car...as that is about the only time we have together, lol...this time on the way to piano lesson. First, I suggested she might let the other ten kids know of this latest development because afterall, it pretty much is their project too even if my daughter created and is leading it. They had all commited to it with her back in September and plan on doing it (four to five day per week commitment for two months), and might want to know. If they want to give any input or should their parents, they should be informed. </p>

<p>Next, I tried to figure out from what she relayed if he actually said "no" and she said he never came out and said they cannot do it. I asked if he came across as if he does not really want to do it as he sees problems with it and she said it was sorta like that. He made it clear he is not happy to have the show go on. What is hard to tell at this point is if he is saying that he is not keen on it but would be willing to work something out. It is not clear why he wants to meet with her parents. I see one possibility as his going over what would have to happen or some conditions or issues to be worked out if it were to go on (understandable of course). My daughter mentioned that another reason to meet us might be just to tell us himself that he does not want to allow this musical to take place. That is possible too. The thing is we don't know which of those are his reasons. So, I asked her to ask him two things tomorrow....one is to clarify if he is saying no or if he is saying he is willing to meet to work out whatever issues he has with the production and she'd be willing to do that (though honestly the whole cast could be part of that). Secondly, I asked her to tell him that her parents were certainly willing to meet if needed but are wondering the reason for the meeting. Perhaps that might at least get at if it is just to inform us or to work together to come up with solutions or just what. I think she should feel this out and that there is no harm in meeting because it is either going to be a working toward a solution type thing (maybe I am being too hopeful as she said he was quite negative) or at least we can hear why it is a no go and can at least politely discuss our point of view or disappointment for the kids involved. I hope it is more a problem solving thing. For instance, say supervision comes up, I certainly can offer to see if parents can rotate supervision or if any other adults are interested. They really did it on their own last year and were very well behaved and focused...these were not kids who were fooling around, none of that is the issue, I am certain. As mentioned, I may very well run into them tomorrow when there to video my daughter's audition for a national award on stage. So, I am into having that conversation but also must tread delicately with my daughter who can't see why it involves parents when she is able to answer for or advocate for herself (which is rather mature actually trying to handle things on her own and not run to mommy and daddy). But if he is asking for that, I am willing. I really hope other kids' parents also hear about it. Time is of essence. Her planning, organizing and gathering music is on target but she cannot take too much time off from moving forward if it is going to commence in a couple weeks because her own schedule is extremely full and she has "hell week" coming up for her current show out of town which will have her out to all hours except to sleep. </p>

<p>LJ...I am with you about not giving up and continuing to take risks and regroup. In this case, it is not about scaling back but about doing it at all at school. If they can't, I think she should at least look into using a local venue but that may not be possible but is worth a shot. She has already put a great deal into this (which I doubt they even realize and she should mention.....she wrote the whole show and has located all the music far and wide...I laid out money that was to be reimbursed by ticket sales, as last year). I hope she is not thwarted but even if she is, I know her spirit and her drive to create and lead will not be diminished by this roadblock. If not again at this high school, she will continue to be a force in college and beyond. She is not a quiet soul. </p>

<p>You guys have been great. I just had to get these thoughts out and am glad to have wonderful support and perspectives. It is not like the worst thing and frankly, my kids have met with many roadblocks along the way in their education but never give up and so I know this kid won't either. It just is such a wonderful undertaking that was not only significant in her learning but in the lives of the other ten kids who speak as if it was a highlight of their high school careers as they had such pride in doing this all on their own and at such a high level. I believe my D is online at the moment before turning in, having done her homework and worked on a college application, and is talking to a girl in the cast, a senior who is the only other student at our high school who is applying to competitive BFA programs in musical theater as she is, and informed her and this girl is very vocal, a top senior in the school, a refugee in fact from the Soviet Union, who said she is also going to go in to discuss this with the music faculty. These kids are the core of the vocal music program in the school and tend to also play the leads in the school production. They are well respected kids and I hope their voice is heard in more ways than one. </p>

<p>Thanks for your support and suggestions.</p>

<p>Susan</p>

<p>PS, I might add that I am a teacher by profession as well as have been a teacher of teachers. It is hard for ME to fathom not supporting such initiatives and worthwhile things like this that kids want to do. I could never imagine thinking like they do or not being thrilled with the whole thing. Even our GC is shaking his head on this one.</p>

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<p>If your daughter wants to keep open the possibility of doing this through the school, it seems to me that it's best for you to meet with the teacher who has asked for a meeting and find out directly what the concerns are and how he feels you might be helpful in addressing them--for example, in locating an adult sponsor.</p>

<p>One other thing that keeps running through my mind--you wrote that your daughter * contacted and contracted with ten other students to be in her cast (these students were all older than herself and basically the kids in our school who both are the most talented in theater and most interested in theater), *</p>

<p>Those words keeps running through my mind, along with the teacher's use of the term "clique." Perhaps the teacher knows of interested students whose feelings were hurt that your daughter did not invite them to participate.</p>

<p>I know that I myself, in other contexts--having nothing to do with theater--have inadvertently hurt people's feelings by not approaching them to ask them to get involved in my project, simply because it had not occurred to me that they would be interested at all. </p>

<p>I have, at times, been honestly quite clueless as to who would be most interested in some of my projects. Sometimes there were people whom I had known quite well in other contexts and I just didn't realize that they had particular interests and talents that would have made them ideal contributors to my project.</p>

<p>Perhaps it is possible to expand the project to include these additional students and to allow them to contribute to the production in some way.</p>

<p>Perhaps not--it might make the group too unwieldy if it grew in size--I know that scheduling around 10 people's schedules can be hard enough, and scheduling conflicts grow exponentially with the number of people involved! </p>

<p>If that is the case, perhaps your daughter and the experienced troupe members could somehow support and advise a second group of interested students to form their own parallel student collaborative project---maybe even encourage them to turn things into a "festival" with performances by the two groups on adjacent weekends.</p>

<p>Or maybe I'm totally offbase here--maybe there's something else entirely on the teachers' minds.</p>

<p>Teacher are public servants and you are part of the constituency he serves. You are a parent, a taxpayer, a citizen and property owner who will have a stake in making sure that your school provides a wonderful place for all children to grow and learn long after your own child graduates. </p>

<p>He has asked to meet with you in connection with a project dear to your daughter's heart, a project in which she has invested much time, thought, and energy. </p>

<p>It iis possible that whatever can be worked out here will set a precedent that will allow many years of student-run productions in the future--all ultimately inspired by your daughter's initiative last year. What a wonderful legacy it would be if her student-produced revues started a tradition.</p>

<p>I don't see the downside of a calm and rational meeting in which you seek to find out his specific concerns.</p>

<p>If I were you, I would meet with him, listen and take careful notes about his concerns, acknowledge that he raises some legitimate issues (such as the need for a sponsor or designated "responsible adult") that should certainly be dealt with and that you will want to talk to your daughter about. etc. </p>

<p>I wouldn't try to propose immediate on-the-spot solutions, just listen to his concerns and note them. You might find that he even has some ideas about solutions to some of his concerns even as he goes along--so note those too.</p>

<p>The more I think about it, the more it may be possible that his remarks to your daughter the other day just came when he was having a "bad hair day"--we all have those, after all. Perhaps it might be face-saving to meet with you (rather than your daughter) on a different day, in a calm and reasonable frame of mind. Maybe the issues won't seem so insurmountable, maybe he will feeling more constructive and positive the day you meet.</p>

<p>In any case, I don't see the downside to a simple meeting to hear out his concerns--unless your daughter wants to just drop the project or move it to a venue outside the school.</p>

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<p>Blossum, you have a point that her life would be easier to not do this show as some might think she was nuts to take it on given all her other ECs outside of school, plus college applications and college audition prep. But she handled it all last year, sans the college stuff, and she thrives on this kind of thing. It is hard to explain. She has NOTHING to prove. It is a deep deep passion of hers to be immersed in theater. She is always working on a show. This is the only theater opportunity for those months. The collaboration with peers who love theater is also enticing. Sure she will be doing plenty more in college. Doing the show outside of school would not be meant to prove anything or get back at anyone but merely trying to find a way to provide a theater activity for herself and others during a time of year when there is no other theater thing going on other than her training/lessons. Actually on the "driving" issue, this is the ONE activity in her life, that involves the LEAST amount of driving for us and we love that fact...it is right at school whereas everything else she does every night and weekend is out of town and involves a great number of miles daily. So, on the practical side, I love this activity as it is the easiest one for us in every way. </p>

<p>It is hard to explain the kind of person she is...she is NOT doing any of this for college.....she is happiest when involved in her passion. It is like taking her passion away. I don't know how else to explain it. Theater is what she does. It would be like being a football player and being out a season. My other daughter, to no fault of her own, not worth explaining, was out junior year from soccer, a sport she had played since kindergarten, but made the most of it by coaching youth soccer. This kid has no show for two months so created her own and not just for herself but the other kids LOVED the experience so so much.....to have taken this on themselves was a source of pride and also just a deep love for singing and dancing. It was really a great experience and she was hoping to do it again, not prove anything but just enjoy what she loves and provide an opportunity for the other kids who also enjoy her passion and looked to her for leadership and vision. She is a creator and if nothing is going on, creates it. I can't tell you how the wheels spin in her head planning out the concepts for the show, selecting music for certain people and how it all fits together in the concept and then making up choreography and she is doing this for FUN.....Taking walks and baking cookies is NOT her idea of fun (even if it sounds fun to me)....she THRIVES on creation and performing..she could do it 24/7 (sorta does)...it's like her mission in life. I can't explain it but hanging around and being with mom is not her sense of fun. </p>

<p>While she came across right after this little meeting yesterday, as "I'm not doing the show now", I think she is rethinking trying to approach them and see what is up because her spirit was dampened but her light is not ready to go out. She is supposed to be sleeping and I just caught her sneaking a phone in bed and calling her sister at Brown asking for advice on this matter. I know her sister likely cannot believe what happened at school (am so glad she is out!). </p>

<p>But Blossum , I do understand the point about how her life and schedule would be eased up and she admitted that was the bright side of this but in all honesty, she was not looking for that...she was looking to create and bring this musical vision to life and have her peers enjoy the process, as well as the community enjoy the result. If you knew her, this is the core of her being. It basically is who she is. It is not about some extracurricular activity, and particularly not FOR college. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>Homeschoolmom, thanks for your thoughtful response. The thing is, I don't think his meeting with her was contentious and it was not like a bad hair day. She went to confirm the date with the chorus teacher who is also the department head and it was apparent she did not want to discuss it and told her that the other teacher would meet with her (this sorta bothers my daughter to not have her own teacher be willing to discuss the matter herself) and then she arranged for the other teacher to send my D a note asking to meet her afterschool and he spoke for both of them (he used her name as well as his own). </p>

<p>I am certainly not opposed to meeting him. I think that likely will happen. My D was not anxious for us to go in to solve her problem but I want to see what transpires when she asks him about this. It is not clear if he wants to meet to help find a way to make their musical happen or just to inform us that he won't allow it this year. The kids who were in it, as well as all the parents last year, did indeed talk of how this could become an annual school tradition to have a student run show. There was so much enthusiasm at the time from the community. It would be sad to see it die so soon. I am hoping he wanted to meet to come up with a way to work this out but she has a point that it is possible he wanted to meet to inform us himself why they can't do it. I do want to find out though and have always been one to rationally listen to a teacher's side of things. I also think they need to hear a parent's view of what this process has meant to the kids involved. I can keep finding theater things for her outside of school like we do, but it is rather a shame that she gets closed out at school for these things when this is the field she is pursuing beyond high school so wants to be involved in it while in high school too. </p>

<p>As far as other kids feeling closed out, certainly IF that is an issue, that can also be addressed. She said he never brought that point up at all when talking to her. They certainly could hold auditions like the school show does. I don't think they can handle large groups but could give any interested folks a chance to be a part of it by trying out. That is IF that is an issue. It did not come up last year. It could be an issue but he has not said that to her. </p>

<p>She would prefer to do this AT school than take it anywhere else. She does NOT want to do it at school, however, if it is going to cause aggravation and not be supported or be unpleasant. She does have to work with these one of the teachers for chorus and select choir as well as both when it comes time for the musical which brings in an outside director but both these folks are involved in that as well. One of these people even wrote a rec for her, so I don't think this is about her, per se. </p>

<p>I'll have to see what happens, maybe tomorrow. Thanks again for your thoughtful responses and discussion.
Susan</p>

<p>PS, I may point out to my D that this is not like Mom is going into school to advocate or solve her problems but rather the teacher ASKED me to come in, so that is a little different than my running into the school about it.</p>

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<p>Gheez Sooz, this is a really tough one. I would go in and meet with him. It sounds like your schools is dealing iwth many changes...especially the new Principal this year. Perhaps there is a sensitive issue that needs discussing and he can't discuss it with your D. Perhaps many other parents complained, for some reason. Perhaps the new Principal is against it because the school has a problem with cliques (unrelated to your D's show) and doesn't want to separate the students any further. My first thoughts were to take it off site. But, your D is stretched so thinly already. I'm with you, it'll be interesting to see how other parents react. </p>

<p>As an aside, my son's elementary school puts on a HUGE musical production every spring. I don't know when it started (at least 30 years ago), but the artistic director and music heads were very involved and got tons of credit after each of the three annual performances (it runs for three nights). They each wear a gold charm bracelet...and are given a new charm each year, designed after the theme of the current performance. The charms are given to them on the final night...along with flowers, standing ovations, cheers from the students....as a matter of fact, the participating faculty members are always incorporated into the final scene in some surprising way...maybe dancing down the center aisle under the spotlight as the last number plays....my point is, it's all VERY dramatic and there's obviously a big desire to be "seen". So, maybe they don't want to be involved fom a "daily rehearsal" perspective, but want recognition in the end. Maybe...</p>

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<p>Short comment: I used to work as a Parent Advocate and our mantra for the families we worked with was "get it in writing." Tell the folks you talk to that you don't want to make off the cuff decisions, nor rely on "he said, she said." You want to be sure you are understanding what is being said, and why, and therefore want it in writing. It's not meant as a "challenge" although it is often seen as such. But when people are forced to put something in writing, and must think through their own position clearly, express it clearly, and know that it is in black and white and can be "shared", things become much more clear. </p>

<p>It takes away second guessing after the fact, and helps keep the "game of telephone" from happening (where the story changes with each retelling).</p>

<p>In the instances when we were not able to get things from people in writing -- such as when they called us to meetings -- we took paper, and asked permission to take notes. On phone calls, we say upfront, "Go slow, I want to take notes as we talk, and I don't want to get anything wrong." -- We frequently ask for confirmation that the notes are accurate. </p>

<p>Also, go in with a list of questions of your own, and write down the answers you get. Both sides may learn things they hadn't thought of before.</p>

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<p>binx--good advice. I wish we had taken notes during a meeting we had with a counselor at our high school during my oldest son's senior year, and gotten a counselor's "promise" to change something in writing. When nothing happened, and I followed up on it via phone a few months later (in the meantime, summer occurred, and no one is available to contact during the summer at this school), I was told that I had misunderstood, oh no, we couldn't have said that, blah blah blah. So infuriating. My husband was at the same meeting with this counselor and he heard what I heard, but at that point, what can you do? By that time S was out of high school anyway, so we let it drop. But I was floored that someone could say something very specific and then just turn around and deny having said it.</p>

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<p>Susan: Homeschoolmom and Binx have some good points.</p>

<p>The way I see it, is that there's no reason for you to not meet the teacher and every reason to do it. Whatever is going on, whether or not the teacher feels comfortable dealing with a teenager, you as a parent and an adult are in a different position. You're better able to read between the lines and, as Binx says, get the issues out in the open. You're in a position of some authority as a parent, especially when the teacher has asked for a meeting - and as a teacher you're in a better position than some parents to understand how such a meeting should go for both sides (even though it's tough to do when you're in the midst of the situation).</p>

<p>Besides, why try to make a decision as to what to do without getting the information you need?</p>

<p>So use your skills to their best advantage. Make sure that the meeting is non-confrontational (fake it if you have to) and get the information you and your D need to decide which of the many possible courses of action you want to take. And, as Homeschoolmom said, leave the situation hanging at the end - don't try to make it come to a conclusion right there.</p>

<p>We'll wait for your report.</p>

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<p>I agree that a meeting with those involved certainly cannot hurt. Messages and interpretations going back and forth can only cause more confusion and of course second guessing what the "other side" is really thinking. One question I do have is , you said your daughter has been planning this event since September. Did she at that time confirm the event and dates for it? I know in our school the schedule for auditorium use at all the buildings is pretty much set in the summer. I guess I can also see the idea that this might seem like a clique in that it excludes others right from the beginning. Again, who knows what the real reasons are for the hesitation. Hopefully, your meeting will give you some answers and either a go ahead or some acceptable closure. I bet your daughter will land on her feet either way.</p>

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<p>I'll be about the sixth person to chime in and say meet with the teacher. I'll be a little more blunt, though: If one of my kids says a teacher wants to meet with me, I meet with the teacher. No further analysis. Your daughter's lack of understanding why that should happen, or lack of enthusiasm for it, is irrelevant. I've read a ton of speculation regarding the teacher's (and others) possible motives for saying, doing or thinking things they may or may not actually be saying, doing or thinking. I can think of dozens more reasonable things a teacher might want to discuss with you at this point. Schedules. Insurance. Documentation of rights to use music and other copyrighted material. Maybe they got complaints you never heard about from last year. But hey, without meeting, you'll never know.<br>
Your daughter sounds absoultely wonderful, but she's still a teenager. There's reasons they can't vote, enter into contracts, or be President. That's why we're around being parents. That's why the teachers meet with us (if they're not too lazy or indifferent.) I'd recommend minimizing the theory and speculation and maximize the meeting and listening at this point.</p>