<p>I think it depends on how the conversation came about and how the question was phrased. Did the mom call you up out of the blue and say something along the lines of “Susie finished all her apps. She is applying to these colleges. These are her scores. What do you think of her list of colleges.” If so, it seems to me that the mom may have gotten advice from someone that her D’s list might be too “reachy,” and she was having second thoughts and wanted to run it by someone she thought was knowledgeable. In other words, did it seem that the mom was calling you up specifically to ask your advice about her D’s applications? If so, I think you should email and say something like “I was caught off guard by your question. Susie is such a terrific young woman that I just assumed she would have great results. However, I’ve heard that it’s imperative to have a safety because so many of these schools fill up a lot of their classes in the early round, so you just never know. Just to be super safe with the proverbial belt and suspender, I think Susie ought to add a few less selective colleges to her list.” </p>
<p>If Susie’s mom called you for other reasons and the topic just came up in the conversation, then I don’t think you need to do anything. </p>
<p>Bottom line: is your feeling that mom was really relying on your advice or just chit-chatting?</p>
<p>Count me in the group that thinks you should call or email her back. First, she has been asking your advice. Second, if it were me, I’d want to make sure that my son’s friend (her daughter) had the best possible chances of admission, and I would feel really really guilty if that girl had nowhere to go and I didn’t say anything. (Not saying you should feel this way. I’m just very good at guilt!) </p>
<p>I might say something like “I was thinking about your daughters terrific list and don’t remember what her safeties are. Our GC and the cc website emphasize the importance of safeties because admissions are so very competitive these days. What did your family decide to do about the safeties?” Hopefully, this will open up a conversation.</p>
<p>I don’t know that exact hang up or the delicate angles involved in the relationship you have with your friend, but why beat around the bush and why not simply go straight to the point and tell her why the D should consider a few matches and safeties. Personally, I don’t see how that could be seen as derogatory or putting her D down as long as the obvious good reasons are provided. I would sell it as a super cheap catastrophic insurance, assuming financial considerations is off limit.</p>
<p>If she *asked *you what you thought of their list, then you really do need to follow-up with her to tell her the truth. Even if you think it might get awkward. Think how awkward it will be if D gets rejected everywhere and she calls you to talk about how upset she is. What will you say?
Send her an email, tell her when you talked to her you didn’t have time to think through the list but now you are wondering…Tell her what the acceptance rate is at the schools in question and make sure she knows that most of the applicants are as qualified (or more ) than her daughter. People have no clue that the acceptance rates are in single digits AND they assume most of the applicants aren’t academic superstars so of course their little Suzy is a shoo-in!</p>
<p>I agree with others that you should email your acquantaince friend. After all, she did ask for your opinion; this is not unsolicitied advice. I agree with others that if the tables were turned and you asked a parent who went thru the process before for advice and they held out on you in order to be polite, what would you think of this afterwards? Additionally, I have heard of a kid who was voted most likely to succeed, had high scores etc, who was not accepted anywhere (Ivys, UCBerkeley, UCLA, USC). Went to comm college for 1 year then transferred to UC Berkeley.</p>
<p>I’m sure that you will be properly polite etc on your email and others have posted great examples. Just recommend some safeties such as a few state schools…just in case.</p>
<p>Lastly, many a husband does not communicate info that they know. H will often neglect to tell me if any of his friends/acquaintances are getting married or have died, etc.</p>
<p>I agree that you have to say something. I would just be direct - I would not be a good friend to you if I am not honest that I think D’s college list does not have a safety. The schools she has chosen all have acceptance rates under 30%, some in single digits. Lots of kids with perfect board scores and perfect GPAs are turned down by those schools every year, and it is even harder for girls than boys. As wonderful as D is, getting into those schools requires a whole lot of luck. If it were me I would find a good school with a greater than 40% acceptance rate and where D’s stats are in the top 25%. Otherwise she may end up without any choices in April and that would be just awful.</p>
<p>You can politely mention that each year acceptances at those schools are getting more and more difficult (more difficult than when your kids applied). </p>
<p>You can say that it’s to the point that these schools are rejecting super-qualified kids and it’s not really fair and it is heart-breaking, but it is what it is.</p>
<p>Then mention that it’s important that her D have at least 2 “back up schools” that she likes, that they know for sure that she’ll get accepted, and they know for sure that they have all financial aspects covered.</p>
<p>then say something like, there really isn’t time in the spring for a “do-over”. </p>
<p>I had a similar convo with a student and her parents 3 years ago. She had an ACT 31 and had only applied to top schools - where they were “certain” that she’d be admitted (and they expected merit!!). I politely begged them to add a safety. They did. That’s the only school that accepted her and that’s where she’s attending.</p>
<p>Since the OP was ASKED, I think she can offer advice. We watched a similar horror but we were NOT asked. Kid applied to Ivies (did have competitive stats for consideration…much like the 90% of the others rejected have!) and one OOS flagship. The family really needed financial aid…got rejected at the Ivies and didn’t get the aid at the OOS flagship (would have gotten a FREE FULL RIDE at our instate flagship…as valedictorian). It all ended up ok and the kid did graduate from that OOS flagship. But really…I wish they had asked!</p>
<p>Didn’t the OP say how folks were surprised her kid didn’t get accepted at the Ivies? If so, she could start by saying how happy her son is at —university and how so very happy they were to have a couple of academic safeties on HIS list. Then ask…“your list of top schools doesn’t seem to have an academic safety. Did you omit that on the list of schools you told me about?”</p>
<p>DS had applied to a couple of reaches, a couple of matches, but no school that I felt was a true safety. Day before the deadline for honors and scholarship consideration at State U I made the case that since he is an automatic admit it would be irresponsible for him NOT to apply. What if, God forbid, something horrible happened between now and next fall (job loss, etc. that would preclude us from sending him OOS to Super U). He caved, and it was super easy to throw together that application just pulling from info on the other apps he had completed. Then, of course, 2 weeks later he was accepted EA to Super U. But that’s Murphy’s Law, because if he hadn’t applied to State U, that would probably not have happened. I would talk to your friend, just tell her that you know that her kid is awesome and is probably going to have loads of choices (not), but that it just seems the practical thing to apply to at least one “back pocket” school, just in case…</p>
<p>Somehow, the fact that (unfortunately) the Writing score doesn’t mean that much to most colleges should get politely mentioned. </p>
<p>Her 800 in the Writing is making her SAT score seem much higher than adcoms will consider it to be. Her Math + CR is a 1360. That is too low for most applicants to top schools - unless significantly hooked. </p>
<p>The family may be looking at her SAT as a whole at 2160, but in reality, it’s not that strong because of the W score.</p>
<p>I just read the original post to D1, who is home for the holidays. She said when she heard the stats, “Those were MY stats.”. And they were pretty much spot on with the SAT scores and grades. She was flat out rejected at her reach that was similar to the ones this girl has applied to, waitlisted at Carleton (and never got off the waitlist, although she did try to). Schools she got into:</p>
<p>Dickinson (attended with nice merit aid, and got a job when graduating :D)
Bates
U of Wisconsin - Madison
Mount Holyoke</p>
<p>If you are looking for a “similar example” you could tell your friend about, you could tell her about my D.</p>
<p>I’ve been bitten by this type of situation several times. People ask how DW and I did “so great” with our kids then promptly ignore our responses, choosing to proceed in ways that are … to us at least … mind-boggling. </p>
<p>As a practical matter the neighbor is likely to ignore your thoughts, even straightforward ones that directly benefit the D. Make a suggestion or two anyway. It’s the right thing to do. Do it by email. Let the neighbor initiate any communications beyond that. JMHO of course.</p>
<p>Thank you, one and all, for really good advice. I am going to contact her by phone (they’re not good checkers of e-mails) I will start the conversation with something along the lines of “It was so nice to hear from you the other day…after phone call, started thinking about the process and just wanted to check with you about whether your D has plans to apply to some schools where she can be certain to be admitted, possibly with good merit aid.” Then add the parts about how those listed schools have really large applicant pools and therefore low acceptance rates, how it is important to have a school that is very nearly a sure thing, that we strongly encouraged our S to apply to at least two schools where his scores/grades fell in the top quartile of admits, etc. I do have some ideas for college suggestions, but will also point the parents to the websites mentioned here.
I’m making a brief outline, so I don’t forget anything when I call. Not sure why I’m so nervous, but people were right when they said that I would feel awful for the girl if she got to April with no where to attend, not to mention I’d feel guilty for not having said something. I liked someone’s line about “inexpensive insurance!”
Thank you all, again, for help (and for the confidence to go ahead and call her) and the very funny comments about husbands. I’ll have to share them with DH. Hehas a good sense of humor, so he’ll appreciate them!</p>
<p>You are all nicer and than I am and apparently have a “filter”. My reaction would have been “are you nuts?! The rate of admission of students even with top scores and 4+ gpa’s is less than 10%. It’s a HUGE risk.”</p>
<p>I think you should send an email. Make it clear that your S applied to safeties and matches, and was happy he did when the Ivy rejections came in. Make it clear you think the D is a wonderful girl, but things are just incredibly competitive. I would go so far as to list a few schools that you think she might consider, including her state flagship and possibly others, depending on the state, and say that in your opinion she should look for a few like them, in terms of competitiveness. I would not address the financial issue, because it seems that it will be hard enough for them to swallow the academic one. You might want to consider suggesting Pitt, American, Villanova, and the University of Rochester (not a true safety, but at least more of a match than the rest of her list). And for LACs, if she likes Amherst, perhaps Dickinson, Bucknell, Colgate. (I’d also suggest Smith and MHC as more realistic low reaches, but perhaps it is better not to get into the whole women’s college thing.)</p>
<p>Then bow out, unless they come back with a request for further advice.</p>
<p>I agree that it is very likely that this girl will be rejected from all of the schools listed, unless she has a hook we don’t know about. (Possible recruited athlete?) Not only is her math score very low for these schools, but her AP list is weak, given the type of HS, with no sciences and no calculus. She does have some chance of getting in, probably strongest at Notre Dame, but she will not be in the strongest group of candidates they see.</p>
<p>I see you’ve decided to do it by phone: great, but I would still make some specific suggestions so they get the idea. We’re not talking Williams or Carleton instead of Amherst!</p>
<p>@NewHope33, your post made me laugh. I get this almost DAILY. “Your kids are so great, how did you do it?”, but then when you tell them (and while I think we did get a little lucky in the kid lotto, most of it involves some kind of actual work, commitment, time, resources, etc.) they look at you like you have three heads. Ah well… to each his own. ;)</p>
<p>Someone posted a link to the NY Times a few days ago. It showed the percentage of applicants accepted ED at various selective school and the percentage of the class already filled. You might be able to send an email with links to that and others suggested here and, during the conversation, mention you’ve done so. Perhaps if you initiate the idea and then she has things to work with it would help. Send links to the ED threads for her schools here too.</p>
<p>If that is so, feel free to say that you’ve heard there are no guarantees at all of those schools and a couple of virtually guaranteed admissions would be good adds to the list.</p>
<p>The only schools on that list where the daughter has a reasonable chance, in my opinion, are Cornell and Northwestern (which do NOT have single-digit acceptance rates). Maybe also Notre Dame, but I’m not familiar with Notre Dame.</p>
<p>But she can’t even count on Cornell and Northwestern. They’re not safety schools for anyone, and although I would argue that some applicants could consider them “matches,” this student is not quite that qualified (unless she has extraordinary extracurricular achievements). And anyway, being a “match” is no guarantee of admission. </p>
<p>I know of National Merit Finalists who were rejected by Cornell. Some of these kids were so well-qualified that they got full-ride merit scholarships to our flagship state university, but they didn’t get into Cornell. The same is undoubtedly true of Northwestern because the two schools are similar in selectivity.</p>
<p>This kid needs a safety school, not because there’s anything wrong with her but because EVERYONE needs a safety school. Considering her taste for fairly large universities, her flagship state university might be a good choice, especially if it has an honors program that she could apply to.</p>
<p>But it’s getting a little late. If she lives in my state (Maryland) the deadline for priority applications to our state university (the kind that get considered for honors programs and merit scholarships) passed almost two months ago, although it’s still possible to submit an ordinary application. I wonder whether the schedules are similar in other states.</p>
<p>A family friend, professor at a highly-selective Midwest LAC, candidly noted that there’s a significant score differential between their female and male students (excl URMs), and that it’s distinctly more difficult for non-URM female students to get accepted at rigorous schools despite fantastic resumes. The admission director at Kenyon actually commented on this phenomena in a lecture or op-ed item that I read on-line several months ago. An admission officer at a very selective Midwest LAC, when I noted the Kenyon piece and the professor’s commentary, noted same issue at that LAC, noting that a 3 point spread between avg ACT score for accepted males vs females.</p>
<p>I don’t think all guidance counselors sufficiently counsel their students, and that many parents don’t investigate the variables concerning college applications. I do think that “B” students applying to the Tier 1.5/Tier 2 schools have it far easier than the “A” students who think they’ve a good shot at a very selective college or university. In reality, it’s often a crap-shoot. And Early Decision policies have skewed the admissions numbers even further. The NYT site recently noted several schools that had filled upwards a third or more of their freshman class spots (at least in theory) via ED, which certainly further complicates odds for RD acceptance at many highly competitive schools.</p>
<p>Also note that some of named schools rely on ED to fill spots w/more legacies. </p>
<p>I think you’d be doing your friend and her daughter a favor by reflecting on your own past experience and research, and suggest that they chose two safety schools, were student fits 75th percentile AND more than half the applicants are accepted. I’m in favor of the frank talk, but that’s me. However, having heard the “applied to 7 schools and shut out of all” story too, I’d feel better to have at least broached the subject.</p>
But that’s Murphy’s Law, because if he hadn’t applied to State U, that would probably not have happened. 
I would talk to your friend, just tell her that you know that her kid is awesome and is probably going to have loads of choices (not), but that it just seems the practical thing to apply to at least one “back pocket” school, just in case…</p>