Parental Invasion?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Military Academy - West Point
1

<p>I am going to be honest, when I first discovered these forums I loved them, and quite honestly I still do. However, I didn't expect there would be so many parents posting on their son's and daughter's behalf. Not that I in any way begrudge them for it, but I just find it interesting. At all of the Service Academy information seminars I went to for years, they always told us that attending a service academy needs to be the candidates desire and responsibility. Obviously, parental approval and encouragement is a great thing, but my parents would never be posting on my behalf. When I first told my parents I wanted to go into the military, they were stunned. However, the responsibility of applying for everything, researching, getting to interviews, making my DoDMERB exam, writing my rebuttal, sending my rebuttal, writing my essays, and calling or e-mailing my FFR or regional commander was completely my own. My parents figured that if I couldn't even e-mail someone myself, or go to an interview myself, that I obviously didn't want it bad enough.</p>

<p>Again, I am not bashing posting moms, I'm just saying, if your son's or daughters really wanted this, shouldn't they be asking some of these questions themselves? (Medical, admissions, chances, etc...)</p>

<p>Just a thought and my opinion, good luck to all and congrats to all you got in.</p>

2

<p>Well, my parents were very surprised a year ago when I started considering the service academies. While I've done all the paperwork and written all the essays, my dad has given me some advice on the essays and both my parents have kept pushing me to get all the paperwork in. I completely want this, and my parents couldn't care less if I went to a service academy or not. However, my dad has been the main player in getting me my medical waiver, though I've played a very active role.</p>

<p>I'm not sure how the other student's parents do things and how big a role they have in getting their sons and daughters into the academy, but I agree that if they couldn't take the initiative and do things for themselves, they most likely shouldn't be going to a service academy.</p>

3

<p>Dr Snipes, you read my mind. Thank You.</p>

4

<p>I for one, am grateful my parents have been involved and supportive in the single most important step in my life. The admissions process was gruelling, I appreciate my parents asking and finding out about things I am just too busy to do right now, school, track, volunteering, friends, weekends! Kudos to my parents!!
Obviously some parents are more supportive than others.</p>

5

<p>I agree with everything you've said, however due to a number of reasons (sports, jobs, etc.), I'm sure that some candidates who are applying simply don't have time to go online and ask questions, but rather request that their parents find out for them. And for that I have no problem with. But the only situations I would criticize are if (a)the candidate takes no responsibility or interest in his or her application, or (b) is being pushed into applying.</p>

<p>Parents are definitely an important part of the whole process. I'm certainly motivated to get into one of the academies, but I still credit them to encouraging me and making sure I get everything that I need taken care of.</p>

6

<p>I agree, but I reject the claim that some candidates don't have enough time to find things out themselves. I have quite possibly the busiest schedule of anyone I know. 8 classes, year round athletics with practice everyday, tuesday night CAP, work on weekends, Tutor teusday mornings, volunteer at nights, and go on school trips for MGA and state club meetings. However, I never ask my mom to find something out for me. I have asked her to make me doctor's appointments, asked her to make me something to eat, and asked her to take the dog for a walk when I have alot of homework, but I can find 3 minutes to make a call or write this post.</p>

<p>Honestly, do you think at the academy your are going to have alot of spare time? You are going to have literally NO time at all, yet you will be expected to carry out obligations, prioritize, and mom and dad won't be there to make your calls, write your posts, and schedule your exams. It's a fact of life. Parents deserve tons of credit, but don't misplace the nature of this process.</p>

7

<p>DrSnipes, your concern about kids being pushed into the academy is well-founded. There's a lot of evidence that those cadets are the most at-risk on arrival for wiping out. However, after watching this site for the past 6 months, I don't think I've seen a single instance of a parent who was pushing their kid into the academy.</p>

<p>I do not share your interest in a student-only forum. In the absence of an admissions presence on this site, much of the best information has been provided by parents (thanks to all of you that have been through the process!). If you'd like to get a candidate focus, I'd recommend you start a lounge thread for 2009 candidates.</p>

<p>I reject your assumption that parents should not have an interest in getting facts about the process. Understanding the process, and its ramifications, allows us to be as supportive as possible to our kids as they undertake an admissions route which is notably different than that of their peers and significantly misunderstood by guidance counselors. </p>

<p>In my case, I'm only here because of a burning desire on my D's part to be an army officer. She's read multiple books about WP and visited 2x; she knows her focus needs to be on driving her academics, athletics, and leadership opportunities. These also, coincidentally, will help her later in life. Researching PAE minimums will not, and I'm happy to do that for her so that she doesn't have to divert attention away from things that matter.</p>

<p>I'm happy for you that you've found this site. If it would make you more comfortable to not have the adults respond to your posts, just let us know.</p>

8

<p>I don't think DrSnipes is concerned about parents pushing their kids, I think he's more concerned that the parents are doing more to complete the admissions process than the kids are. The concern is not their desire, it's their ability to do things on their own under stressful situations.</p>

<p>The whole "the kids don't have enough time to do everything" is absolute nonsense. If they don't have enough time to even apply to the academy, then like DrSnipes said, they don't want it bad enough. I don't care how busy your schedule is, there is time. </p>

<p>"Again, I am not bashing posting moms, I'm just saying, if your son's or daughters really wanted this, shouldn't they be asking some of these questions themselves? (Medical, admissions, chances, etc...)"</p>

<p>Amen brother.</p>

<p>"Researching PAE minimums will not, and I'm happy to do that for her so that she doesn't have to divert attention away from things that matter."</p>

<p>I don't mean to be untactful, but every part of the admissions process "matters". The admissions process isn't just about focusing on "academics, athletics, and leadership opportunities", it's about completing the process. There are many things that you have to do at West Point that you might not think "matter", but it's part of the process. Also, if time is found to read multiple books on WP, and visit the campus twice, I think there is time to find out minimum scores for a very important admissions test. </p>

<p>I am not here to bash posting moms either, nor insult how parents handle their children during this process, but I don't believe that kids don't have enough time to complete the process. That's VERY insulting to the candidates who have researched and finished the application process largely on their own.</p>

9

<p>BS:
Research clearly demonstrates that students whose families are involved in their education generally excel in school. That involvement takes many forms, and I don't think anyone would argue with that notion. It's my impression that USNA encourages family support and involvement. I can't speak for the other service academies. When would you recommend that support end: I-day, graduation, commissioning? The University of California is my alma mater. It now has nine campuses and probably at least 250,000 students systemwide. For me, the biggest challenge straight out of high school was not the curriculum but the bureaucracy. </p>

<p>If you were the parent of a service academy candidate, or any other elite college for that matter, how would you handle the application process? </p>

<p>Kate Lewis expressed my sentiments as well.</p>

10

<p>BodaSivrak, you're not being "untactful". And you're correct, upon rereading DrSnipes' post, it is clear his concern is about parents completing the process for their children.</p>

<p>I happen to disagree. I don't think that's what's going on when parents are participating on this forum. If my daughter completes the applications, writes her own essays, handles her own interviews, attends summer seminar, works out and passes the PAE, and meets the deadlines, she's completed the process, not me.</p>

<p>You view the difficulty in obtaining good information as part of the program that helps weed out unsuitable candidates. I, on the other hand (and with far more experience with bureaucracies), view this as a post-facto rationalization by USMA for a deeply flawed process. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>The reality is that all the information exchanged on this site is information that any well-informed MALO should possess and be able to share with the candidates in their territory. And I'm sure USMA's intention is for this to happen. However, the number of well-informed, proactive MALO's is small. Many of the experienced individuals that filled these roles are now overseas; a number of the spots are open, or filled temporarily by officers who are covering a number of responsibilities in a field force stretched very thin. Candidates in locations without access to the unpublished "rules of the road" lose out.</p></li>
<li><p>There is no question that being fully informed can increase a qualified candidate's odds of appointment from 50% to, say 90%. There is a disproportionate benefit to completing a file in August, instead of December; to practicing the PAE before taking it; to attending summer seminar; to prepping for your junior year PSAT's and SAT's instead of waiting for senior year results. It is one thing to create a long, arduous process; it is quite another to make that process so patently uneven. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>As wstcoastmom pointed out, families provide support in different ways. Acting as a MALO backup is ours.</p>

<p>I do wish to add one more point, however. The term "parental invasion" suggests that parents have just started posting on this board. In my recollection, this board, as well as those for the other service academies, has always been mixed.</p>

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<p>"If you were the parent of a service academy candidate, or any other elite college for that matter, how would you handle the application process? "</p>

<p>I would do what my parents did, I would support and say "If this is what you want to do, we want it for you", but I would not research information FOR my son/daughter. It is my kid's responsibility to do that, if I wanted to find out info on it for myself, to be more informed of what my kid is going through, then fine. </p>

<p>I don't believe supporting is helping the kid find out information like minimum PAE scores, or some of the other stuff parents are asking FOR their kids on this forum. Supporting is showing up for I-day, graduation, commissioning, but I do not believe that looking up where I-day is taking place, finding out FOR your child what you need to do to graduate, etc. is reasonable support.</p>

<p>I just wonder why a lot of these important questions are coming from adults, and not the candidates.</p>

<p>DrSnipes put it well ... </p>

<p>"I'm just saying, if your son's or daughters really wanted this, shouldn't they be asking some of these questions themselves? (Medical, admissions, chances, etc...)"</p>

<p>"Research clearly demonstrates that students whose families are involved in their education generally excel in school"</p>

<p>Very true, but again, I believe there is a line to be drawn for that involvement. Is a parent who is finding out all their kids HW assignments in their Calculus class by calling the teacher ahead of time so the kid doesn't have to worry about it and can focus on "the things that matter" like completing the HW, proper support? I think once you hit graduating high school, and applying to a service academy, parental involvement should not include some of the questions asked FOR the candidates by the parents on this website.</p>

<p>"Candidates in locations without access to the unpublished "rules of the road" lose out."</p>

<p>I don't think I've talked to my MALO once about any "rules of the road" during the entire process. The person who called every once in awhile to interview me (I guess was my MALO?) kept rescheduling the interview, and I never understood anything the guy said. Somehow my local JROTC instructor is now the MALO for this region, and conducted my interview. Point is, just because you don't have a MALO (or another adult who is always able to be contacted) during the process doesn't mean there isn't access to the "rules of the road". There is the internet, the admissions technicians, your admissions officer. All can be reached by a simple phone line. </p>

<p>Whew ... so I guess we've wasted enough breath on this topic so far. Just saying, I'm not here to insult anyone, I just believe the admissions process is not that complicated that a kid needs, along with a MALO, admissions tech, admissions officer, and the internet ... a parent who knows more about it then their child. Your kids did a lot to get to this point, I think they can handle finding out the best way to complete the APP. Good luck to them!</p>

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<p>I do not see anything wrong if a parent with time on his/her hands helps find out information to assist his child in the admissions process. The parent should not pressure the student to go to a school that does not suit him or interest him. The selection should be left to the student.</p>

<p>Don't forget that parents often have to pay for college and wealthier students pay a fortune to hire tutors and counsellors to get into good schools, or they have political pull or fancy prep school diplomas that give them a leg up in the process. Not every West Point admissions person is equally helpful and informative as another either.</p>

<p>I helped two of my kids apply to and get into West Point and Harvard. We are working class people and I could not pay for tutors, counsellors, prep schools, etc. They graduated and are successful and independent people today.</p>

13

<p>Here's a couple of thoughts from an "over-indulgent" parent:</p>

<p>I commend those of you who have taken on the entire application/nomination process on your own without parental assistance. You have a level of maturity, self-reliance and discipline that is rare, even among the elite academy candidates.</p>

<p>I concur that a spoon-feed candidate has a high chance of failing at the academy.</p>

<p>As you probably have discovered by now, you have been both blessed and cursed by your self-reliance and discipline. People expect more from you and less from others who do not have the same level of self control. Extra time, effort and "second chances" will continue to be given to those who, in many cases, are putting forth less effort than they are capable of. </p>

<p>It's not fair and will frustrate you to no end. Get use to it. It's part of the price for being a leader.</p>

<p>To help you cope, try reading the parables of the Prodigal Son and the Workers in the Vineyard.</p>

<p>Got to go, my son's science project is due tomorrow(just kidding).</p>

14

<p>If you read carefully through the threads, many are written by candidates who are asking for information. They want to take advantage of another's experiences, or are looking for reassurance regarding this incredibly stressful process. </p>

<p>The parents who participate here either have already gone through this, or are willing to share the factual information that they have uncovered, with those who are seeking it. This is nothing more than information sharing, not an "invasion".</p>

<p>The more prepared each candidate can be, the better their chances of achieving their goal. I have seen much mis-information (as in "oh yeah, for sure, you're in") being bandied about by candidates, which fortunately was tempered by the facts uncovered and shared by more objective (and better informed) parents.</p>

<p>Read the threads carefully. </p>

<p>The parents are not doing their child's work; they have their own questions to which they seek answers, or are sharing their own experiences with others who have asked for help.
When people seek information, it should not matter what the source is, only the accuracy.</p>

<p>Good Luck in your quest,
CM</p>

15

<p>Wow, to be honest, I never thought this question would amount to all that much. "Parental Invasion" was likely a misleading title. It was not intended to imply an unexpected and mass arrival of parents, nor was it intended to say that parents are "doing it all." I personally just found it very interesting that some many parents were asking what were often simple questions or questions a candidate SHOULD have been asking. I saw on the Air Force forum the other day a post by a mom asking about her child's sinusitus and whether a rebuttal or waiver was likely. I just couldn't help but think that if I had a disqualifying medical condition, which I did, that I would take care of my OWN medical rebuttal. Leaving one of the most important factors of admission to my mom or dad to ask about and take care of was not even a possibility in my mind. I made some calls, got an eye appointment, went, wrote a rebuttal, and sent it off. For the record, I was mistakenly diagnosed with diplopia, I have no clue why.</p>

<p>Again, parental involvement is a good thing, but sometimes I can't help but ask why a candidate isn't asking the same exact question.</p>

<p>Whatever, to each his own. Thanks for the great discussion though.</p>

16

<p>I didn't apply to West Point, but I couldn't help expressing my thoughts...and quickly I might add. The parents that have responded to my questions and concerns have undoubtedly been extremely helpful throughout this process. Although I have parents who very much support a service academy (USNA in my case), they haven't been able to answer questions regarding the details of the process, and for that, I am grateful to those parents (you know who you are) that have taken the time to help me. Other candidates have been very helpful too, but I welcome any parent who is willing to provide their time and advice. I don't believe they're just posting on their own son and daughter's behalf. They want to give AND receive any information they can to understand this very lengthy and difficult process.</p>

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<p>Last time i checked, the parents forum was that-a-way<< (just Kidding)</p>

<p>Parental involvement is necessary but to a certain degree. </p>

<p>Admiral Thomas (Go Navy hehe)</p>

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<p>This is actually a great topic and I believe there has been a similar one in the Parents Forum. I'd like to add my 2 cents. As the mother of a very busy high school girl who came to me out of the blue and said that she thought the idea of going to West Point would be interesting, I have to admit that I was in a bit of shock. Having "come of age" during the Vietnam era the idea of military college, let alone a military career was completely foreign - and possibly even a negative idea - to me. There was no way my daughter was going to really be interested in that lifestyle. I suggested that if she thought it was interesting, she should do her research and find out if it would be worth pursuing. I expected the idea to go away quickly.</p>

<p>Not only did she do her research, but because she thought I was a bit apprehensive (gosh, did it show?) she kept me informed. As time went on and this interest turned out to be more than a passing fancy, I thought that I better know more about what she was trying to get into. The more I read, the more I became overwhelmingly impressed with West Point. I finally "got it". It could be great option and really fit her.</p>

<p>Having no real support for information from our high school combined with my own budding interest in this fascinating institution, I decided to actively find out as much as I could. Also, as she became more committed to the idea of going through the application process, I truly wanted to understand something that was so very different from my own experiences. In case she was accepted I had a strong need to know what her life would be like.</p>

<p>While she was writing essays, filling out apps, making phone calls, and working on all the many steps in this process, I was there to take messages, make suggestions, pay for IAW, make the telephone calls that could only be made during business hours, and provide support in the same way as if she was applying to any other school in which she developed such a passion. And, yes, occasionally I "reminded" her about deadlines. She interviewed with our MOC's panel. She interviewed with the Liaison Officer. She is writing the thank you notes. </p>

<p>So what am I doing on CC? I'm still learning more about service academy life and the application process. When I had questions it was great to get an answer right away. When the anxiety surrounding interviews or mailboxes trickled down to me, it was nice to share with another parent going through the same thing. A lot of the students have provided the same kind of support and plain, old friendliness. </p>

<p>Now that she has accepted the appointment, I am wondering about the next step in the process. As she does the paperwork and goes to all of the doctors - by herself - I have many of the same questions that I would have if she were going to a civilian school. How are roommates selected? Do the kids order pizzas to be delivered to the barracks? Is she academically prepared? But because this is West Point I know that I will have a whole lot of other questions that will not be an issue for her twin sister. I wouldn't bother an Admissions officer with these kinds of questions. I don't know any parents of current cadets. However I'm finding some answers here from all of the helpful people. This is for my curiousity rather than her process.</p>

<p>So if any current cadets can answer the pizza question, I'd love to know.</p>

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<p>Heavens, this is turning into a therapy session. Momoftwins, I could have written the exact same first three paragraphs. Not as well, though. Thanks. It's nice to know I'm not the only Vietnam-era mom with the same reaction.</p>

<p>Admiral Thomas - the parents in the parents forum....just wouldn't understand what it's like to be the parent of a kid applying to a service academy. It's really a very special group of parents....and kids.</p>

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<p>Momoftwins and KateLewis~well said...I agree completley. I also have wanted to understand the motivation behind a service academy career being from the same era as most here. It has helped me to hear from students why they are interested. Sometimes it's interesting to hear that from another student other than your own son or daughter. It has all helped me understand!</p>