Parents Advice to Me_Is this right? (12th Grader!)

Parents Forum
1

<p>Hello,</p>

<p>I am a Senior in high school.
I am having trouble digesting what my parents have been telling me for the past two months. I have to apply to college on October 1st. They are very, extremely upset with my decision and suggest to follow their idea for a major. Please help me decide in an objective manner which is worth it. They do not like me going on this certain path, although it is not a horrible, wrecking path.</p>

<p>Their Idea: Their idea to to go into a UC (Davis, Riverside, or Berkeley) for 4 years PRE-MED, and then go to 4 years med school in that same UC. This is because they feel that they have come a long way from their rural town of India to US and want me to earn more than them. Their main point is that I should be (my dad actually gave me this example) able to drive the Benz car or Ferrari instead of driving around the 98 horsepower car I have now. I should be able to start with a salary from $300,000 to $700,000 and buy a big house. They mentioned nothing about the innate nature of one human to help another or curing the sick. It's more that I should be able to become "successful" and not count my money on an excel sheet and restrict spending severely. The total loan on this venture is $376,000. Please don't argue about this number, I have done hours of research and calculations on this. This number assumes I go to UCs. I will incur a total of $70,000 loan. My dad can fund the remainder.</p>

<p>This is where my conflict comes in. It takes 8 years + MCAT + research just for the medical study. No. It takes 11-17 years total to become a doctor because of fellowship, internship, residency, on call, specialization(this should be done during fellowship and internship), and medical license. I spoke to my doctor. He tells me that I should search my soul and see if it is right for me and I should do it NOT based on pure financial motive. I searched it, and found a 404 error. My million dollar question is: Is all that work and effort worth it in the end? At what age will I earn that money, start paying off the loan, and having a secure life? Is it socially worth it? My dad has to liquidate ALL his savings for this. He will have to sell the house, his gold, and a lot more securities. Then, he will have to buy a new house and incur another huge loan. I will be riding the train instead of the airplane. I tried for hospital volunteering and did not receive it. I did not take AP Biology, although I asked my parents to do it. They refused because they felt physics was better. Now they want me to go to medical. I HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING medicine related to my life other than volunteering to help people at museums, and teach children my mother tongue at an academy. I think I oppose my dad's plan because he always mentions money. I was not raised up by my parents telling my do to social services, but get into the best profession (which is medicine in their angle). However, I did all my volunteer work by my own choice. They opposed many, including yearbook writer.
I don't know if its all worth it and college life and time will be HIGHLY restricted. </p>

<p>My idea: I have been on this soil since I was age 3. I am an excellent English speaker and writer according to the observations of my teaches. I am interested in business. In fact, I took an intense course for in a community college in Introduction to Business and Intermediate Business. I have taken all the business classes my school provides. My dad has 30 years of experience. He tells me that only the top managers are the ones who speak and participate well. However, he claims that I have never won a Speech and Debate competition (this was only freshman year at high school.). I am not in leadership team. My professors and classmates think the latter, that I am outspoken and eager.I choose instead to work for my school's yearbook as a writer and producer. Anyway, he does not believe I can do it because I will be out-competed by those who are smarter in any engineering. I intend to do my MBA after engineering (aerospace, computer, or electrical). It will be a shady life, but if I succeed, I will self-actualize and be more successful at life. Is this a wise choice given the current economic condition? My total debt will be $80k-ish for the first 4 years of UC. MY dad agreed to pay the $20k per a year. I will have to pay my own MBA. The business world is littered with politics. I realize the hardship. I have the belief that I can excel in this exciting business world, but I am not sure how I will do compared to others.
If I take this path, according to my dad, I will hit my head figuratively a steel wall (not brick). I will suffer and will have to drive around a that 98 horsepower car. </p>

<p>There is uncertainty in both. He has 30+ years of business experience. He knows the hurdles and so do I, but I am little more inclined to business side of life. </p>

<p>My Ability:
GPA: 3.85. AP Score for Ap Language and composition: 5
SAT: This does not solely determine college admission nor does it contribute to 90% of admission influence. Score: 1990
I will hit a wall either way.</p>

<p>Thanks in advance!</p>

2

<ol>
<li><p>You can do pre-med in any major, although your schedule would be very crowded if you try to do it in a major with a lot of requirements like engineering (other than chemical or biomedical) or business.</p></li>
<li><p>Most pre-meds do not get into any medical school.</p></li>
<li><p>Biology is a popular major with pre-meds, but has poor job and career prospects at the bachelor’s level.</p></li>
<li><p>UC is more like $30,000 per year for in-state. A $20,000 per year budget is more in the in-state CSU range.</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>I’m a health care attorney. My clients are physicians and hospitals. My wife is a physician, as is my sister. I have a daughter that is pre-med. In my opinion, you should not go into medicine unless it is something you really and personally want to do. The sacrifices related to training are many as you have already noted. There will be additional sacrifices once you go into practice. Patients come before family time. It is not a short work week.</p>

<p>In addition, you will not be going into practice for at least another 12 years (finish this year, 4 years college, 4 years med school and 3 years of residency), perhaps longer if you do a fellowship or a specialty with a longer residency. I anticipate that the economics of medicine will change significantly in that period of time. Health care costs are the major driver of federal and state budgets and current deficits. The demographic imperative will only make things worse. Managing health care costs in order to control government deficits will result in decreased reimbursement for all health care providers including physicians. The private payors tag along. Some of this is already happening. For example, Medicare reimbursement for abdomen/pelvis CT is now paid as a single procedure instead of separately. While this might make sense for technical reimbursement (payment for the technical image), it does not make sense for professional services reimbursement (payment for reading the image). Some private payors have also adopted this fee schedule. For some of my radiologist clients, that is an @7% reduction in their income stream. Other procedure related specialties are also likely to see reductions in reimbursement as government and private payors seek to reduce their costs. In addition, compensation in the range you cite is currently only available to certain specialties. You may or may not want to practice in one of those specialties. Many physicians currently make far less than $300K per year.</p>

<p>The bottom line is that while medicine is likely to still provide certain employment, I do not believe that it will be as financially remunerative in the future. High income procedure related specialties like cardiology, radiology and surgery are more likely to be affected than lower income specialties like internal medicine and family practice. So, if the goal is to go into medicine to make a lot of money – the goal may in fact be illusory. I believe you need to go into medicine because you want to help people and/or you are intellectually enamored with medicine. You run the risk of being very disappointed otherwise.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the suggestion senior member, but it seems like that my parents gave up on giving me advice. He refuses to talk to me about it anymore, saying that its my life and he achieved what he wants in his life.
On the positive side, he has given me total control (in a sad mood) over what I should do for a major.
Your advice will help me guide my way, however, I have one question.
Is there such thing as a direct 7 or 8 year med?</p>

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<p>It is not clear from your posts what you really want to do:</p>

<p>Medicine?
Business?
Engineering?
Something else?</p>

<p>If you want to do pre-med, be sure to have a backup plan in case you do not get into any medical school (the most likely outcome) or you decide that it is too expensive.</p>

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<p>Thank you pohaku. Thanks for the overview of the industry now. My professor always told me to review the industry or company before choosing a job in it, which is why I find your suggestion helpful.</p>

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<p>Hi. I am a parent and a former English Instructor at UC Berkeley and UC Davis. I lived in both of those cities before moving to Honolulu in 2007 where I live now.
First, let me say that you are planning way too far ahead. Life isn’t like that.So many things happen during the process of living day by day. After you enter university you can learn new things and change your plan. It may be difficult but it can happen. Also finances aren’t always predictable. (I was in debt but, mysteriously, met a wonderful man a year after graduate school, got married and he paid off all my debts so, in fact, it was never really a problem. I went to university and majored in what I really loved. I rarely dated and was a very serious student. But, in the end, everything worked out. </p>

<p>Don’t go to medical school if your heart isn’t in it. It’s really hard! My best friend is a doctor. My husband is a doctor. I edit manuscripts for doctors, so you could sort of say that I know their lifestyle. They see patients all day then come home and work on the computer, typing in their notes on who they saw that day and what conspired. In addition, they have to do some research and publish papers. (I edit their papers for a living. It is my profession now.) They also attend professional conferences, give presentations and talk constantly about new medications, pharma companies, medical conditions and the poor lifestyle choices of their patients. (I could go on and on but I won’t.) The point is: they love it, practicing medicine, and that is why their energy never seems to end. However, if you don’t love it you’ll never be able to do it.
If you like business then study business! I think that’s a great idea. My grandfather had a successful business and made a lot of money. I have met a few quite successful business people. I think it would be much better than medicine.
Good luck.
Kim</p>

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<p>UC Berkeley does not have a medical school, so to begin with, your parents are on the wrong foot :)</p>

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<p>Kimfuji and others are right on the mark in my opinion. College is a time to pursue passions. You are clearly multi-talented, and have many interests that could take you far. You have a strong work ethic, great role models, a wonderfully supportive family, and a vision for your future. That said, you have indicated interests in business, writing, possibly teaching English, etc. I would suggest that you find a UC or CSU (or with the current CA economic climate, one of the partner schools in other states who have agreed to similar tuition but may not be so incredibly strapped economically) and go in as “multi-interested.” Take courses in all your favorite subjects. See what lights your fire. Go from there!!! I completely agree that charting out a 10 year plan with the info you have is not reasonable, and it appears that as a smart businessman your father has realized this. He trusts you - he believes in you - he is just looking for you to be happy. But really, what is happy? I would rather drive a 98 cylinder car to a job I loved than a Ferrari to a job I hate. I am one of the wierd ones that chose my profession at 11, and am still passionate about it at 54. Even I dabbled in other things, if only to realize that what I am doing is perfect for me. Conservatively, I have now spent seven million, eight hundred thousand hours doing my chosen profession. Just yesterday, an incident occurred that really really upset me. Why? Because I absolutely still am PASSIONATE in my belief that what I and my team does MATTERS, and someone who is jaded behaved as if was “a stupid job.” I certainly would not want to spend what will be 10 million hours by the time I retire doing something I didn’t want to do with my heart and soul. And yes, I am blessed. And yes, many many people do switch careers midway through their lives, majors within school, and modify their jobs as time goes by. You don’t need to look for a forever job, but an area you are passionate about NOW, with an eye toward continued learning and exploration, is critical.</p>

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<p>I think your parents want the best for you, but I think they’re all wrong in their reasoning. You need to pursue what interests you. I know a lot of wealthy businessmen, so if that’s your passion, you should go for it. Doctors should be caring individuals who love what they do - there are already enough doctors who are full of themselves and are in it for the money.</p>

<p>I’m not sure why your parents feel that money buys happiness because it doesn’t. And I’m with shoot4moon who says I’d rather drive the cheap car to a job I love. Maybe it’s a cultural thing that they’re pushing so hard for this - I don’t know. It’s wonderful that they want so much for you, but in the end, you have to be happy with your decision and your life.</p>

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<p>I know several people my age who are children of immigrants and were “encouraged” to become doctors but were miserable on that track and rebelled. They went on to be happy, productive people who make a fine living. Eventually, their parents got over their disappointment. Yours will too.</p>

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<p>Honestly, there is little in your description of yourself that suggests you should major in engineering or be a pre-med. Your interests seem to be in other areas–why not go somewhere that has a good undergraduate business program?</p>

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<p>I’m sorry, I understand your parents likely sacrificed a lot to come here, but if their values are simply about you earning the most amount of money possible, then their values aren’t very good ones and you should feel just fine rejecting them.</p>

<p>They are also completely mistaken about the money to be made in medicine. You are by no means guaranteed any kind of salary between $300,000 - $700,000. They don’t have a clue about the impact of malpractice insurance – which in some specialties can be six figures a year – on physician salaries. </p>

<p>I am the wife of a physician, saw him through med school, and for him medicine is a calling. If medicine is not a calling for you – and it doesn’t appear to be at all --you shouldn’t be a doctor. Period, end of subject.</p>

<p>This is not India. They came here to give you a better life. Part of the better life in the US is that young adults pick their own careers and their parents don’t dictate to them what to do. </p>

<p>Best of luck to you.</p>

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<p>Many people leave medical school owing >150,000 in loans to pay back. You can not pay these back easily when you are an intern or resident. I know many physicians who make a little over 100,000 and have been in practice for years. In our med center docotrs’ parking lot there are mostly family vans and priuses, few mercedes.
If you do not love science and helping the poor and sickest of patients during your training then you will be miserable.</p>

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<p>As a follow up to this thread, here’s the kind of approach to future physician Medicare reimbursement that is currently being proposed:</p>

<p>The Medicare Payment Advisory Commission (MedPAC) has recommended that in order to fix the broken sustainable growth rate (SGR) formula, reimbursement to most physicians should be cut each of the next three years, while reimbursement for primary care services should be frozen at its current levels. After the initial three-year period, all physician reimbursement would be frozen for an additional seven years. The commission made its recommendations at a meeting held on September 15 in Washington, DC.</p>

<p>While this won’t necessarily be adopted, it does convey the potential scope of changes to future physician reimbursement.</p>

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<p>Guys - it doesn’t MATTER if physicians make $100,000 or $1,000,000. The kid doesn’t want to be a physician. Therefore, he shouldn’t be. End of topic.</p>

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<p>I agree: if your heart isn’t in becoming a physician, it is wise not to pursue it. There are way too many people pursuing med degrees for the money, and we really need people who want to do it because they have the heart and passion to do it. (Loan repayment isn’t really an issue if you are willing to care for the low income and underserved, so that shouldn’t hold you back.) (Yes, there are lots of people pursuing med degrees because they care, but there are also lots pursuing specialty med degrees because of the $$.)</p>

<p>Can you sit down with your guidance counselor and your parents and have a discussion about your gifts and talents and what you would like to pursue in life? Maybe they need to hear from the counselor and some of your teachers what you are really good at.</p>

<p>I agree, it is hard to plan out the rest of your life as a high school senior. At the same time, if you do want to go to med school, you need to be very diligent and stay on the right path. </p>

<p>But, it doesn’t look like that is what you want. I hope that you can persuade your parents that doing a job you love is more important in life.</p>

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<p>I know the OP doesn’t want to go to med school and in that case, he clearly shouldn’t pursue that avenue. The info is more for bolstering his interaction with his parents. It may improve the relationship if they understand the issues inherent in their plan. They may resent it less if he doesn’t seek go to medical school if they understand that it isn’t the financial holy grail they apparently believe it to be.</p>

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<p>That doesn’t solve the problem, though. So if the parents decide medicine isn’t the financial holy grail they thought, but maybe law is, now they push the kid to become a lawyer which he doesn’t want to be, and nothing’s changed. The argument needs to be framed differently, because framing the argument as “medicine’s not all that lucrative” doesn’t stop the parents from then pushing the kid in a different direction that isn’t any more to his liking. It still assumes that the parents have a “right” to push the kid into a profession / career. </p>

<p>OP, are there “elders” in your parents’ community that they would respect and listen to?</p>

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<p>I used to be a mortgage loan officer at a bank. The top earners I saw were not doctors, and certainly not lawyers. The people with the highest income levels were people who owned their own businesses. I don’t even remember what businesses they were in, but if they had a really big income they were a business OWNER.</p>

<p>Actually, now that I think about it, the highest income I saw, over a million dollars a year, was a guy who owned a very large chain of sandwich shops. (No, it was not Subway, but it was a big chain in that area of the country).</p>

<p>If this kid’s parents want him to make big money, he needs to find something he’s passionate about and open a business doing it. A major or minor in business or entrepreneurial studies would be the way to go.</p>