Parents of full-pay kids want to end need aid.

Paying for College
41

<p>Which is why the UCs, which are fair, are so lopsided. That is the way it should be in all public universities. Private colleges just do whatever they want. That's why I don't understand when people get so bent out of shape about it. If you don't like it go to a public, at least in CA. Many publics in other states, particularly in the South and the East, are acting like privates in their admissions practices. That's plain wrong.</p>

<p>This is an issue of much more then just fairness and money. The US is just so strange when you look at the rest of the world. Many countries don't even have "private" universities. Practically nowhere else has small liberal arts colleges. There are a few public LACs in the US, but most are privates. Most people have to pay for them. Two of my kids have benefited from the practices at those LACs. They were able to attend for the same price as a public University. In a perfect world, people who choose to attend privates should expect to pay what they can afford and just attend one. </p>

<p>In reality, if you have the money you can go to college very easily. You can take your pick at all but the top ten or so.
If you don't have the money, you better be a darn good student, a superb test taker, a minority or a bassoon player. Better yet, all four! In other words, you need to be BETTER. Then they'll pay you to go there.
This is the biggest game of them all.</p>

42

<p>You are in a small and elite crowd if your kid is expecting to go away to college. The air can get awfully heated in that small,crowded room. There is an inherent unfairness in a system that brags how fair it is. Look at any of the press releases from the top schools. They love to huff and puff that they are open to all with merit being the main qualifier. That they are not even on the list of the vast majority of underprivileged makes them even more eager to point those who do manage to somehow get an app in. </p>

<p>I don't have an answer on how to fix the whole system. I would like to see the very top schools, the ones most desired to be open to all. That would really be more fair. Kids whose parents are spend thrifts, in a nasty divorce fight, who have no idea of college should have an equal crack at these schools. I think that every kid should automatically be entered in a college app to ALL of the colleges, marking off his preferences. This should be done at every school. This way fewer opportunities are missed.</p>

<p>As for loans, I don't see how that makes things fairer. Kids from families who don't have the money or won't invest it in education end up sucking down the loans for a long, long time. I repaid our loans just as our first child started nursery school. </p>

<p>There is also the free enterprise part of all of this. Schools do have the right to pay for whomever they feel they want.</p>

43

<p>
[quote]
whatever happened to the cur I used to know, y'all might remember the kind, gentle soul who dropped off cc for awhile bcos it was too contentious? Anyone heard from him lately?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Hey, bro. The time you remember was different but your point is well taken. I've got the bit between my teeth and I'm heading right into the fire.</p>

<p>This is important to me. The issues are big. And I've got nothing to prove and nothing to lose. ;)</p>

44

<p>From Once</a> again, jocks push aside scholars at UC - Inside Bay Area</p>

<p>
[quote]
... The UC system routinely admits between 250 and 300 student-athletes — and hundreds of nonathletes — per year who did not achieve the grades or test scores required of most students. ... Some campuses use the "admission-by-exception" policy to enroll students from underperforming schools or low-income families. ... UCLA accepted 167 ineligible students last year, or 1.4 percent of admitted freshmen. ... 40 percent of UCLA's athletes are admitted by exception every year ... At some schools, particularly those without NCAA Division I athletics, the policy is used to admit students from disadvantaged backgrounds ... At UC Riverside and UC Merced, admissions officers have started admitting significantly more ineligible applicants in order to reach more low-income and first-generation students. ...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It sounds like the UCs craft for diversity, too. I'm glad they do! :)</p>

45

<p>yes, the UCs dabble, but the demographics speak for themselves. </p>

<p>cptofthehouse, I like you. It all started with Cambridge and Oxford, of course. The baby US wanted to be like that so created these elite schools to pretend to be England. Then England started to admit scholarship kids by a sort of contest and the US followed suit. Why do you think the East coast has so many little privates and the West coast doesn't? Because the west coast is newer, of course, and the West tried to get away from that system It worked famously for a while, but now economics is forcing change even out here. And, my daughter will be going to an East coast LAC. And, guess what? She needed financial aid. <em>gasp</em></p>

46

<p>I posted this on another thread:</p>

<p>Free breakfast, free lunch, subsidized housing $75 monthly incl all utilities for a family of 6, food stamps and oh yes,, ,let's not forget the sneakers they buy all their children at a cost of approx. $125 a pair... sounds fair to me... so my husband and I bust our butts working 2 jobs.. and oh yes. we are both well educated.. Phd and MA both.... do we get all this??? no.. nothing.. we work. This is a choice we all make.. our parents were uneducated yet they instilled in us the importance of an education and much more than that.. a strong work ethic. Nothing in life is free. Poor people who don't try, and don't value education or instill in their children a work ethic of some kind shouldn't get a penny for college. And those poor kids who get their college paid for.. most often don't finish anyway.. and those that do.. don't know where to go from there.</p>

47

<p>
[quote]
most often don't finish anyway

[/quote]
principal, welcome, and can you post your source for this? Is the family you describe an "average" in a study you found?</p>

48

<p>Notice my screen name - I'm the source</p>

49

<p>Some of the posts I read make me sad and regret coming to CC . Why? Because I lost the naivety I had taken for granted at least lately after what I seen inside some people's minds down here. Yeah I do have some relatives who had talked this same talk but looking into many CCers minds is truly scary.
( btw I am not on food stamps and I didn't need parents to instill work ethics in me, I found it by myself. And my father left his own house bought with his work)
And in all seriousness how does all how hard working parents are relate to college education of their kiddies. I consider myself highly independent and probably 3/4 of the college bounds kids do too. This should be about them. Parents already had their time to shine in college aeons ago. I truly believe what college education a student deserves is based on the student's merit, he/she alone. If u want to talk about hard work talk about the student's hard work not the parent's. I am sure you do want your kid writing a college essay on how much struggles the parent went in the 1970s instead of talking about her/himself.</p>

<p>If a student has proved her academic qualifications, she/her deserves her college education regardless of all the bs. There are college dropouts among the rich if they don't make the grade in the first place. If a poor kid dropped out, it reflects that her academic is not on par not her financial background.</p>

50

<p>principal, with your attitude you need to find a new job. You shouldn't be dealing with disadvantaged children.


</p>

<p>SkyGirl, most of your post could be written by me and look at my post count. Not all parents feel that way. Obviously more than I knew, but still - not all of us by far.</p>

51

<p>


</p>

<p>How eloquently well put!!!! Not much anyone else can add</p>

52

<p>Kids who are in a family like you describe, Principal, have a lot of disadvantages. College is a way out for those who despite the odds manage to do well enough to get into that institution rather than others where their peers may be doing time (subsidized even more fully and more expensively by us taxpayers, I might odd). I think it is a cheap way to give such kids an opportunity out of their family situation. It's not even enough money really for the vast majority of them, and sure, many fail. Many kids are not completing college in 4 years, or even 6, and many are from homes that are not of your description.</p>

53

<p>Prospective students who come from a family of lower income have a much harder time getting the same education as a family of greater wealth. The student who earns a lesser amount usually has to work an additional job (I work 30 hours a week in addition to schoolwork; I haven’t had a weekend off in 3 years), they have to go to less prestigious high school, public ones. That means that they have access to a worse education as well as less ECs. </p>

<p>Prospective students should not be held accountable to their parents’ financial status. </p>

<p>For poorer families that receive government assistance and squander it on Ipods, expensive shoes, whatever, their financial history should be looked at and questioned to as if they truly need the assistance. </p>

<p>Personally, I have never had an Ipod or MP3 player, my schools are the Payless $20 ones, and they have lasted me for over 9 months so far. All of my job earnings go into my college fund, I’ve never had a car because it would be too much of a strain on my (and parents’) budget. </p>

<p>Is it fair that I should not be given the same opportunity when I have worked much harder than people with a greater income?</p>

<p>How many prospective students with families with high earnings can say they had to forgo a car or have never had an Ipod because of their financial status and need to save that money for college?</p>

<p>How many students out there have worked a job in order to specifically fund their college education, they have not spent ANY of their earnings over 3 years on luxuries?</p>

54

<p>
[quote]
I consider myself highly independent and probably 3/4 of the college bounds kids do too. This should be about them. Parents already had their time to shine in college aeons ago. I truly believe what college education a student deserves is based on the student's merit, he/she alone.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I takes a whole villiage to raise one child. No man is an island.</p>

<p>While I appreciate your independence, you weren't raised, learned, or taught in a vacuum. Many factors and individuals came into play in your development. While I agree that your primary college experience is about you developing your human potential, I think that it is shortsighted not to acknowledge the other individuals that supported you to this point in whatever capacity. There is no such thing as a "self made" person. I detect a little angst in your post. Hopefully, I haven't misunderstood your point. If I have, my apologies.</p>

55

<p>
[quote]
And those poor kids who get their college paid for.. most often don't finish anyway.. and those that do.. don't know where to go from there.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If you are actually your namesake, then maybe you need to evaluate what more you could do to not have that be the reality in your situation. Apparently you are frustrated and a bit judgemental, but no so much as to wean yourself from the nipple of the school system that you administrate.</p>

56

<p>I have been reading these posts for several days and I am greatly saddened by the attitude that many of the posters have taken about financial aid. My D is receiving a modest grant along with a MERIT scholarship to attend a top LAC. Without the grant, she would need to attend an instate college (the LAC is still going to cost about 8K a year more than state u). </p>

<p>H and I both work fulltime; I am an ABD (all but dissertation-many years ago), H has a BSEE. We both have public service jobs-he chose to leave industry and works for the state in rehabilitation services (he wanted to help others) and I teach in a community college. We live modestly and have no debt. I do resent the implication that need based recipients are the products of poor parenting or bad economic choices on the part of the parent. </p>

<p>We are economically "poor" compared to the majority of individuals in our community (high tech/university area). D has held her own academically in a community that provides every opportunity to children. The parents that had the resources for all of the enrichment are the ones I hear complaining the most vigorously about financial aid. Each time I hear this talk, I quietly listen and hold close to my chest the fact that my D is one of THEM (aid recipient).</p>

<p>D was National Merit with NO preparation and took the SAT one time, again with no preparation. The majority of her high performing peers began prepping for the PSAT and SAT in 10th grade and paid for Kaplan or Princeton review. I consider her to have been at a big disadvantage compared to her peers having had no prep. The LACs that offered her the aid saw her as “fresh out of the box smart” (as one admissions person called D-referring to the fact she had no prep other than a great public HS). Why not invest in her? I imagine D will give back to the planet 10X over, and, I imagine, as an alumnus, will give back to this LAC as well.</p>

<p>D was one of three students from her HS to be admitted to a very competitive LAC. All 3 got merit scholarships; with the grant D got considerably more $$$. Our family income and wealth is at least half that of the other girls. Both of the other girls have educated at-home moms (I admire the decision to stay home, just couldn’t afford it), one of the girls plays on a $40,000.00 instrument (10X the value of D’s). I fail to understand why giving D a grant is unfair. These girls were born with a huge advantage over D. I feel the grant from this LAC is the first time during the 18 years of D’s educational journey that things have been fair.</p>

<p>Yes, my husband and I could have chosen other occupations and made much more money. We are foolish idealists, I guess. Both of us committed our lives early on to service to others. Public service jobs are not a road to wealth.</p>

<p>As to principal’s post, I do feel you would be better suited to a career in industry, not serving vulnerable, fragile student populations. It is nice your parents “instilled” a work ethic. How rich you are in emotional resources! Why not share it then? Most of my community college students did not have such fine roll models and come from struggling circumstances. My students are injured Iraq vets from poor families, recent immigrants from war torn countries, hopeful young people who spent their childhoods bouncing about in foster care, victims of child sexual abuse and domestic violence, the children of displaced millworkers and, the displaced millworkers themselves. Nothing excites me more than to see these folks realize that they are intelligent, they simply haven’t had the opportunities (emotional and economic) that most of the CC posters have. I spend hours teaching these students how to study, counseling them on the intricacies of loans and transfer applications and holding them when they are overwhelmed by the mountains of obstacles they face. All of my students want the best for their children and have hopes and dreams as big as yours or mine.</p>

<p>Why should LACs give poor people money? Infusing capable poor students with children of privilege in the intimate setting of a LAC is the only way we can begin to eradicate the ignorance about struggling families that prevails among some of the posters on this board.</p>

57

<p>FYI: Poor people will spend money on the expensive shoes or purse because it serves as a "taste" of wealth. Is it a good investment? No, but the emotional contribution to the poor economic decision to purchase the shoes comes from the poor shoe purchaser looking about and seeing the homes, cars, jobs and opportunities he/she will never have. He can have the shoes and for a brief while, can fantasize about being "rich".</p>

58

<p>Notice my screen name - I'm the source</p>

<p>so are you saying you have studies to document these findings?
It's helpful to other posters when remarks are backed up, do you have a link?
If you are in a school district, what is your district doing to address this problem?
WHat have you tried?</p>

59

<p>Although we are relatively well off financially, we have never bought our children cars, never bought IPODS or anything else that anybody thinks is a luxury. My good car has 220,000 miles on it. Our kids went to public schools and have busted their butts while in high school, summers and college. My daughter works 3 jobs in college and my son has been financially independent since 18. Because people are well off financially doesn't mean they blow their money on garbage and if they are poor they certainly shouldn't.</p>

<p>As far as my career goes, perhaps my definition of poor is different than most of yours. I'm a principal in an inner city in CT. Most of you should know that while CT is a wealthy state, it has some of the poorest cities in the US. My students aren't on this website because they don't have computers. If they know who their fathers are - they're in jail. Their mothers are in gangs. I've had mothers coming in here attacking students and I've had a mother come in with a knife wanting to fight another mother in my office. They don't know about LACs, Harvard or anything that you're talking about here. They're lost before they enter school. Its the parents that need educating - the sole focus on the students is misplaced. What have you done to help anybody????? I've gotten grants to educate parents. I've started new initiatives to get parents more involved in their children's education including helping parents attend community colleges. Of course this isn't enough. It's only a start.</p>

<p>What I find particularly distasteful and disgraceful are the following:</p>

<p>Schools such as HYP that pat themselves on the back because they're increasing diversity and helping poor students. They hold diversity weekends (Dartmouth) and who shows up: minorities driving mercedes - real diverse!</p>

<p>I also find people who have a holier than thou attitude distasteful because they pretend to feel sorry for the poor by supporting liberal initiatives that aren't doing a thing to improve anything.</p>

60

<p>Madville,
In response to your post (I haven't mastered the quote thing), no angst. I was referring to the way some folks have been evaluating whether a kid deserves a certain type of quality higher education -in terms of getting aid to reach that education- by saying your parents didn't work hard/saved like we did, so you don't deserve that education. In all this talk, they have forgotten those students themselves. I am saying a student's qualification/worth to receive an education should be based on his own achievements and if there hard work to take account to - it should be of the student not the parent. Why? Because if you have seen many of these threads, they totally discredit the student's achievement and insult their family's background when the kid is poor. So I say student first, always.
Did I get it right? Or not?</p>

<p>Principal, yes I know what group you are referring to. But there are lower income students who actually study, overcome all that crap to achieve in their education, work part-time in HS, support their family, etc. I do hope you will get to meet that group one day. I have access to a laptop because I worked and saved to get a used one for my education. Uhm actually if u look around even here in CC there are the silent many who are low income high achieving kids who deserve to go decent schools they got into with that aid to help them. They worked liked hell to get here. And they are going to work through college too. And sadly most of the threads are targeting those group of kids not the ones from your HS. </p>

<p>Geez, I posted to much. Guess this topic is close to my heart. Curmedegeon, I totally agree there are so many decent parents out here like Northstarmom, 2blue, and many more. I have been lucky to at least to know them online :)
I shouldn't be posting anymore today.</p>