<p>"I also find people who have a holier than thou attitude distasteful because they pretend to feel sorry for the poor by supporting liberal initiatives that aren't doing a thing to improve anything" </p>
<p>Excellent point principal.</p>
<p>skygirl:</p>
<p>There are different types of "poor people". Poor like middle class is a relative term. Probably a year ago, I posted what I call a distinction between poor people that has a huge impact on what happens to them after high school if they get that far. In a typical metro area there is a central city and suburbs. Both frequently have people on welfare. Usually the percentage is signicantly lower in the suburbs and the 'burbs have a higher median family income. Someone on welfare in the 'burbs' has a very different perspective on education than in a poor central city. While the amount of money they have to live on may be the same, the one living outside of the city is in a school system that frequently has huge advantages over the inner city - no not the teachers, they are highly dedicated wherever they teach. Its the rest of the student population whose parents understand the importance of education and to some level "push" their kids. The students all know about the SAT's, they know about summer camps and while the poor student may not be able to afford to go one of these camps, he may get aid to go to one. He's aware that they exist. Many poor students in a poor city, coming from the projects are clueless and so are they're parents. As far as the schools in these places, its a struggle for the teachers and administrators just to keep some form of order - the issues are way different than worrying about SAT's. The poor student in the more affluent suburbs has way more advantages. If both he and a more affluent student take out loans for college, their responsibilities to repay them or whatever should be the same. Afterall, its the student who is getting an education not the parent.</p>
<p>Short answer, need aid for poor, need merit for our best, need to stop shafting the middle class either way.</p>
<p>hornet: "As to principals post, I do feel you would be better suited to a career in industry, not serving vulnerable, fragile student populations."</p>
<p>You strike me as somebody who doesn't have a clue what fragile is. Fragile is a 9 year old whose mother has been called to pick her up and refuses to bring the child home because she doesn't want her anymore. She only wants her three other children. Fragile is when a father is called because his son (11 years old) has been acting up in class, comes into my office to pick the child up and then proceeds to beat him up. I suspect most people on this site have a very limited dealing with actual poor people - not people who think they're poor because they don't make as much money as somebody else like the posts I see from CA people who make 100k and think they're poor because they can't afford a 700k house.</p>
<p>Couldn't help myself and figure I'd put my two cents into the debate...</p>
<p>The bottom line is that college is getting very expensive and the government is doing nothing to help the situation. Every year, tuition rises for no aparent reason.. Is not as if the professor have one on one sessions with the students as when we were in Grammar school and their salaries should be increase... Is all pure GREED!</p>
<p>So here is the thing, people are getting too personal on the responses even quoting what others have said. Every one is entitled to their own opinions and views on the subject. </p>
<p>The assistance given to the low income students is very unfair. Just because you are "poor", should not entitled you to a free ride... The poor students have it made, they receive the most grants and scholarships.. not to say that they dont deserve to get compensated for their achievements... the rich students, don't really care what the cost of tuition is only because they have the capital and could be selective in choosing the college they would like to attend. But, what happens to the Middle class students? These individuals are doomed... they get the least of assistance and their families are left to find the revenues to pay for the tuitions.... </p>
<p>Is unfair to say that if my child has exceled in school and it's middle class she should not have the same financial aid package as a poor student.... what makes one class better than the other??? aren't they all attending school to become professionals and earn the same salaries?</p>
<p>Stop and think about it for a second....... Im a single mom trying to put her d through school.... barely making enough money to survive and yet considered middle class...... which transalates to me having to pay in full for my d's tuition only because I was told that they gave all the aid to the needed students...... what makes them more needy than my D?????? She worked as hard as any other class....</p>
<p>Like one of the members here said.... Take whatever is given to you and suck it up...... even a dollar.. will be less of what you'll have to pay at the end of your education... and make a wise career choice so that you are able to succeed in the real world!</p>
<p>MIchina I would refer you to justamoms post #15 on this thread.
With your daughters EFC of $3,000 that would get her good aid from 100% need met schools.
That is low enough to qualify for Pell grant- so I would consider that low income.
Was the finaid finished on time?
If she wasn't offered any aid, but qualifies for Pell- something is amiss.</p>
<p>"They hold diversity weekends (Dartmouth) and who shows up: minorities driving mercedes - real diverse!"</p>
<p>Principal, economic diversity is NOT the only diversity that they are looking for. My D was at a LAC diversity weekend with alot of potential full-pay minorities as well as low income ones. How pompous of you to assume those driving mercedes at the Dartmouth diversity weekend were not "paying" parents.</p>
<p>GA:</p>
<p>With due respect, I think that you are misunderstanding that part of principal's point, which is only tangentially related to the main thrust of this thread. I think that that part of his point was that self-styled elite schools proudly announce that they are advancing social justice by having a more racially-diverse student body, when in reality what they really want are people of color who are as much like affluent white people as possible. A fertile topic for a very complicated discussion in its own right.</p>
<p>What I think is more fundamental to the current discussion is principal's implicit point to another part of the FA policy currently promoted by HYP--the idea of giving large amounts of "need-based" aid to families earning up to $180,000. Now, HYP can use their money however they want, but please don't brag about the contribution that you are making to social justice/mobility by making it easier for students who are very affluent by any reasonable to attend our most selective schools. If you really want to promote social justice, let in more full tuition students and use the savings to set up the fund to help pay for truly poor people to attend community college. I'm not suggesting that that policy would even make a dent in the problems that principal is highlighting, but at least it would give a few kids a chance they might not otherwise have.</p>
<p>I think that that part of his point was that self-styled elite schools proudly announce that they are advancing social justice by having a more racially-diverse student body, when in reality what they really want are people of color who are as much like affluent white people as possible. </p>
<p>I guess I haven't been paying attention because I haven't noticed many schools ( any) announcing that they are racially diverse and have social equality, but I have noticed attempts at molding the student body to reflect a more diverse representation of minorities including racial minorites than in the cities or suburbs that many of the students are coming from.</p>
<p>EMM1, sorry, I combined Pincipals posts #46 and #59 together. In #46 he makes statements regarding people on public assistance buying $125 tennis shoes. I took his post #59 to mean those "same people" were driving the mercedes. My apologies to Principal if I took that wrong, but that is how I read it.</p>
<p>Principal, the top schools are interested in those students who are able to perform well in spite of the environment and challenges you describe. In terms of admissions to their institutes, they have no interest in the other kids, the vast majority of the kids and their problems. Heck, it's rare they even come to schools like yours to recruit. So not only do kids from your environment have to surmount all of those issues, they have to somehow figure out the college admissions system unless they are lucky enough to have someone assist them. I don't think too many people feel that such kids do not deserve a full ride, and, correct me if I am wrong, nor do you. </p>
<p>In addition to those very few kids in that category, colleges also actively seek other types of students. They want diversity in race, ethnicity, geographics, so they seek it. If they are trying to build up a program, they seek kids that can fill it. They look for top academic kids. They want athletes to fill those facilities that they spent so much money building. They want to keep alums happy, so they do give preference in that area. </p>
<p>FOr kids who are not top students who get full rides from schools, it's a tough row to hoe, as you know, if they come from a school like yours. Such kids would probably do much better away from home and its problems, but going away to school is often not an option. THe aid that a truly needy kid needs to go away to school is rarely given. Those packages that HPY et al give are truly a drop in the bucket in the scheme of things. Those kids who do give college a whirl, are often hard pressed to pay the cost, make the commute, do the work.</p>
<p>I am not sure who the object of your rant is. I don't see large numbers of people making money off of financial aid. The biggest benefactors that I see, are those who have family members helping them out so that they live a better lifestyle than their own work efforts would render, so they get financial aid for their kids even though they live among peers who do not qualify for such money.</p>
<p>"How pompous of you to assume those driving mercedes at the Dartmouth diversity weekend were not "paying" parents."</p>
<p>I don't believe principal was assuming any such thing. Principal is trying to point out several things. First there isn't any need to hold such weekends for these students because they are totally aware of these schools. There isn't any need for wealthy minorities to be feted in this way whether it's at HYP or Dartmouth. Secondly, these schools are trying to make off that by helping minorities they are helping the poor ( some equate minorities with poor). These schools pretty much don't really give a hoot about the poor.</p>
<p>It's interesting that the other posters were assuming Principal is a man- I was assuming the opposite.but that's beside the point.</p>
<p>I think there is still need- awareness isn't the point
My daughters urban school in Seattle is pretty aware of colleges- but colleges are apparently looking to do more than just get their name out there.
All of the Ivies send representatives to visit her high school every year, some of the Ivies send them more than once a year.
That isn't to instill awareness but to connect with the students and get them interested enough to apply/attend.
Same with recruited students - they want them to attend, not just be familiar with the name.</p>
<p>I would agree that there is a difference between economic and racial diversity.
My oldest attended a school with not much racial diversity- possibly because of the non-PC curriculum ( heavy on the dead white guys), but they offered good need based aid.
They are happy to get racial minorities with or without need.
My 2nd daughter has racial diversity as a priority re: colleges- which is making it very difficult .
What ever the colleges do to make that more visible- we will welcome.</p>
<p>my son received big $$ from NYU part of his scholarship came from the Carroll and Milton Petrie Foundation (which I had never heard of before seeing they were giving my son 15K. This is what it says about it. Thank Goodness there are people like this in the world</p>
<p><<Petrie Foundation grants support students who have overcome adversity</p>
<p>Reflecting the goals and deeds of the late New York University trustee and philanthropist Milton Petrie, the Carroll and Milton Petrie Foundation has made a generous gift to NYU to establish grants to supplement University scholarships for students who have had to overcome a variety of hardships.</p>
<p>The Carroll and Milton Petrie Grants are intended for students at the School of Law and throughout the University who demonstrate exceptional academic merit, good moral and civic character, and whose lives have been marked by family poverty, long-term illness or disability, political and social upheaval, the necessity to provide for their families, or other factors that would make obtaining a university education a distant dream.</p>
<p>HYP aren't coming to the city where I'm located.</p>
<p>Regarding the Petrie family, they have been very generous to many Sue. Glad for your son. I think that it is hard to understand principal if you do not have real experience in the environment described. Years ago I worked in an office in a very poor city. It was very hard to get good clerical help, and I turned to the local high school where work-study jobs were given to honor students (really.) I had two interns who were personally lovely, bright, etc. They both went to college after graduation, working their way through and I presume with some grants, and living at home. The background of the girls was average for the area, but the outcome was special. Neither went to HYPSM or any other name college. One is a teacher now. The other I don't hear from anymore. I consider it my privilege to have met these girls. Even though I have seen the people who buy the ipod or cell phone with their last dollar, I prefer to focus on those who are smarter than that. Some people will never be helped by your advice to save etc....I have other stories of the latter type, but why bother. The help to those who work their way up is really priceless.</p>
<p>Principal, I am sensing a frustration in your posts. Your first post really threw me, because I disagree with your statements in that post. However, your subsequent posts gave me a better sense of your situation. I substitute teach in a very socially diverse suburban school district. The kids I have gotten to know come from families with many difficulties, both social & financial. The schools in the district with the poorest kids are a real eye opener. The kids are SO far behind!! I cannot even imagine what it must be like in a school with kids who come from homes like Principal describes. Even though I have met kids with parents in jail, who are on free lunch, who wear dirty clothes & don't take baths, who bounce from home to home, ... nothing I have seen is even close to what Principal describes. I have some sense of it, though. Many years ago, I went into a high school in Hartford to talk to the counselors about an engineering college that hoped to recruit disadvantaged minority students. I was stunned by the condition of the school, and I was disappointed to find that the counselor couldn't think of a student who would be able to succeed at the college. You are correct, Principal ... your students are NOT on CC. Perhaps if some of the folks on CC who truly do not understand what poor and disadvantaged is, could spend a few weeks in your school, they might have some idea what you are feeling.</p>
<p>I joked way back in one of the first few posts about the subject of need based aid. I do want to state that I absolutely believe in providing need based aid. As a moral person, I see the value in assisting those who need assistance.</p>
<p>Ohh.. I just can't leave this one alone, principal. For what it is worth, my background is in clinical psychology. My clinical internship was for a year on a state sponsered inpatient facility (long term locked-they had these back in the early eighties) for severely disturbed, mostly poor adolescents. I later was the director of a partial hospitalization program (five years) for emotionally/behaviorally disturbed teenagers who had been removed from the public schools due to emotional or behavioral difficulties. </p>
<p>I've spent a lot of time with poor kids (not inner city but troubled nonetheless). My kids were fragile underneath a lot of bluster and bravado. The inappropriate purchases (shoes, clothes) weren't due to rampant hedonism or selfishness. The poor financial decisions were emotion-based. These people have told me that they feel looked down upon by the rest of us and the shoes or clothes are a way to "disguise" themselves and hopefully avoid judgement. </p>
<p>I know you have no way of knowing my background not I yours and the shots that we took at each other are borne of ignorance (aren't discussion boards great for misunderstanding). Your later posts reveal a much more complex individual who obviously has tried to make a difference. You do have a tough job with inner city youth and I have not worked with your population.</p>
<p>Hornet:</p>
<p>Until a few months ago, I was a teaching vice principal in a middle school where greater than 80% of the students are on free lunch. I thought these kids were tough and had it very difficult until I became a principal at an elementary school next to the projects. Virtually 100% of the students are on free breakfast and lunch. They made the middle school students seem rich. I've driven students back to their "homes". I'm not sure fully what's going on but I will relate one story. Since the population in the school is transient, a father had to come in last week and demonstrate residence in our district. He brought us his lease which stated that the rent was $1400 a month for which he was paying $75 a month - good deal! The catch is that there is absolutely no way the rent can possibly be $1400 in this city. Decent housing is around 700 - 800 a month and the address is a dump. I'm not certain who is paying this fee to the landlord - whether its coming from city, state or federal funds payed by the taxpayer - but its a ripoff. Its difficult getting through to parents, many of whom don't care. At our school, instead of educating students, some drama happens everyday - from parents arrested, calls to DCF, to illegal **** fights (being investigated), to cases of lice and ringworm and significant gang issues (even in elementary school). Many of the students have learning or behavioral issues. My main goal is to get parents more involved.</p>
<p>Principal, I think your idea is a great start. You are doing a job that is amazingly difficult, but so very necessary. Thank you.</p>