Parents -- Stop Obsessing, Start Encouraging

<p>I wouldn’t say there’s no reason to go to Harvard College, but you have to have certain industries or at least career plans in mind to justify the price premium (if it exists). And yes, if you plan on going to grad school, the premium you’re willing to pay for Harvard College should go down considerably.</p>

<p>I would agree that parents need to encourage their children to find the right fit when it comes to a college.</p>

<p>I also agree that some parents and high school students get caught up in unrealistic prestige searches and place an unrealistic value on certain colleges.</p>

<p>However, I disagree with your assumption that most ivy league students are all about seeking financial gain. I have worked with a lot of college students from a range of different types of colleges, and I have seen both arrogant and humble students from an array of schools. The ivy league schools offer an amazing education, as do many other schools. And many if not most students who pursue an education there are exceptionally bright and are seeking a broad, enriching education.</p>

<p>I also would have to disagree that the quality of the education at an ivy league or top tier school is similar to one at a small state school. The quality of instruction, on average, the pace, intensity and focus, and even the level of student interaction are at a much higher level. There really is no comparison.</p>

<p>This started out great. Then it turned to Ivy-bashing. I chuckled a bit when you confused “surmised” and “summarized.” And I laughed when you complained about “liberalized” Ivy education. It got even funnier when someone said that there’s no reason to choose HYPMS since public schools are more affordable… which is ironic, because HYPMS have ridiculous financial aid that often beats public schools.</p>

<p>That said, between the laughter, I agree. My parents were initially of the “get into Harvard or you’re going to community college” mentality; I didn’t get in, of course, although I unknowingly ended up getting into one of the best schools out there for my major. They were still harsh and I had to spend four hours discussing my options with them (state flagship school was $25k/yr cheaper than my other choices- a top 20 private school that I consider top-tier since its small student body makes its endowment/student pretty high and the aforementioned top school for my major). In hindsight, it turns out that was a good idea- I got to explore my options in depth for four hours and in the end they did agree with me (in favor of the expensive school) and I found myself even more satisfied with my decision.</p>

<p>Parents shouldn’t obsess and push- because, not being the applicants themselves, they’re probably missing some information. Parents shouldn’t just instantly support all decisions either, though- it’s valuable for them to guide students, to ask questions and make sure they understand the choices they’re making.</p>

<p>Honestly, until college tuition came into view, I hadn’t really dealt much with numbers above $10k. I’m making decisions that probably require experience I don’t have- and I can’t overstate the value of my parents spending the time contextualizing these numbers and making sure I knew what I’m getting into. In the end, we’re all pretty satisfied.</p>

<p>^Are you in-state for CA?</p>

<p>If that was directed at me: I wish. Texas.</p>

<p>In my reading of CC, it’s the kids, not the parents, who are mostly obsessed with prestige, and the “dream school” mentality flourishes among the applicant set, not the parents who are paying for it all. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>@dividerofzero has hit on the importance of something that has been the backbone of our experience as a family of a student going through the college search process—kids and parents need to discuss the issues and really listen to each other’s concerns and opinions. </p>

<p>I’ve learned a lot about the American educational system in the past year or so. But, even better, I’ve learned a lot about my daughter through our discussions of her concerns, her goals, and her choices in the process. She’s only 17, but she’s becoming a young woman who I like and respect. I trust her decisions, and I trust that she will take my input into consideration when making those decisions. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>The state flagship school in Texas isn’t too shabby! :)</p>

<p>@BadgerState‌ Among other things in your post, the fact that you think law school is prestigious in 2014 really captures your naivety. Literally anyone can go to law school. You hear prestige, but those who know better, know that unless it’s a T14 school, the kid is going to come out with $150k in debt and a $50k job, if they’re lucky.</p>

<p>In elite circles, nobody considers Madison elite. It’s a tier 2 public school. The only publics that are peer are UVa, Berkeley and UCLA. Majority of the kids at Milwaukee aren’t even college ready. If you were my family, I’d encourage you to transfer to Madison at your earliest convenience.</p>

<p>

DS was once a technician in a research group of such a school. Before Christmas, the PI of that research group would take all of his members out to some fancy restaurant and then to a drinking place. Many of them got quite drunk. DS was not a drinker so he was not drunk. At the drinking place, another group who are local people tried to pick on them once they had learned that they came from THAT school. It does not help that many in that research group are internationals who lack the “drinking place etiquette” needed to survive in such a drinking place. (In some STEM research field, it is often the case that there are a lot of international research members/postdocs/PhD candidates, even though the PI is usually not – actually this is about the same at many large companies in silicon valley. Extremely few executives or CEOs are internationals but likely almost 80% of residents in the heart of silicon valley, Sunnyvale, were born outside of this country!.)</p>

<p>At one point, DS was very worried that a hostile confrontation and even alternation between the groups might happen. Those people were originally hostile toward him also. When they learned that he was just a “lowest ranked” technician there, they became not hostile toward him. He therefore could become the person in that evening who helped to diffuse the tension between these two groups. (By writing this, it reminds me of the tragedy about Annie Le, the PhD Candidate/researcher, and Her murderer was a technician, a high school graduate. It is not easy for them to work nicely together in their daily work life because of their different background.)</p>

<p>When a person becomes an Ivy Leaguer for whatever the reason it may be, he or she runs the risk of having a hard time to befriend those who did not attend a similar school for whatever the reason it may be.</p>

<p>Since there are fewer people who go to an elite school, by choosing to attend such a school, it is likely that a person who attends such an elite school also automatically choose to have a “not so cozy relationship” with a lot of people who he may run into in his life. This is a very practical concern in some career (e.g., low level politician.)</p>

<p>Actually, sometimes I feel that there is a similar “divide” in this CC community, even though most CCers here tend to be “more educated” (thus could be viewed as “not one of them” by those who do not have a college degree) than the general population in US.</p>

<p>I think many of us here have heard that Ivy leaguer’s car would very likely be egged by random strangers, a high-end car could be keyed, etc.</p>

<p>For the most part I disagree with your observations. More often it is the kid that is wrapped up in the prestige and the parent desperately trying to divert their attention due to the high cost and lack of merit aid at top ranked schools.</p>

<p>And good for you, you picked a school and a major that are making you happy, and your parents proud. If you are so content though I have to wonder why you need to judge others for their choice of college or major? Why does it rankle you so that someone else may want to attend a “prestigious” college, or why would you possibly care about what makes some other parent “proud?” </p>

<p>I believe your story, mcat, but it sounds more like an issue of drunken male bravado and town/gown tensions than anything specifically related to the particular school. “Townies” in many communities resent those whom they perceive as uppity, superior and often spoiled, rich college kids.</p>

<p>^ Most of the research members are “starving” (well, I exaggerate it) graduate students living in graduate student ghetto! And they are usually not young college students. Actually, they may be more like those nerdy three engineering major roommates who were murdered at UCSB except that they might be 5 year older and even more lacking in social skill at a night club.</p>

<p>Doesn’t matter. They were, or at least seemed, “other” to the people they had the interaction with in the bar. And it sounds like the behavior of a lot of them (apart from your son) left something to be desired.</p>

<p>People of different backgrounds get along in all sorts of environments, except for when they don’t. I just wouldn’t read into isolated incidents and then conclude that students at prestigious universities must suffer through life with a target on their back.</p>

<p>I do not know how large the group was in that evening event. But I heard only two in that group were not either drunk and partly-drunk. Those two were very busy in sending others home that evening. According to DS, some of the more drunk ones might be hit by a car while they were walking to their home (one staying in a hotel) if they were not helped by others.</p>

<p>The funny thing was: the non-drunk ones were the youngest (but all had passed the college age.) I would think the more experienced one were supposed to “take care of” the younger, inexperienced ones in that situation.</p>

<p>The other who was not drunk is very level headed in terms of finance and the selection of schools to attend. In less than a year after that evening event, he chose a school whose rank is likely 20-30 places lower than the other school in NYC. What is even more surprising was that his GF was in NYC at that time. The only reason was that he could haggle the price to with that school in RI, but not so much with the school in NYC. (I mentioned this because this is more related to the topic on this thread. The point is that everybody’s priority may be different, and also some schools may be more willing to lower the price tag than other schools - for a selected student rather than all students, of course.)</p>

<p>Talking about the drinking, DS once said that if he drank a little bit more in UG years, he might have more dating opportunity back then. He might not be totally proud of his “non-drinking” status. (I think one reason why he did not drink much was he thinks the drink is expensive and he would rather use his money for something else.)</p>

<p>Another funny story is that at a drinking party (already at a grad school), one pretty drunk female student semi-jokingly told other students to go to a corner (to pray or do anything) so that she could make out with another student. She would never say something like that in her normal life. You could never under-estimate the influence of alcohol. But I have side-tracked.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Lacking respect for 8 different colleges because of a stereotype is really…(what’s the right word?)…odd.</p>

<p>As usual, we are mixing up several distinct groups of people and their “prestige obsessions”.</p>

<ol>
<li>High schoolers who post on CC</li>
<li>Parents who post on CC</li>
<li>High schoolers we know in real life</li>
<li>Parents we know in real life</li>
</ol>

<p>The differences between these groups, and even between individuals within these groups are large. </p>

<p>In my personal experience, the individuals with the least amount of life experience and ability to see the big picture are the ones most likely to believe in the power of the prestigious name or ranking. </p>

<p>CC is a world unto itself, not really an accurate slice of America. In real life, I don’t know anyone who obsesses about colleges, applications, and nuances of rankings in the way it happens everywhere on this site.</p>

<p>In real life, my third child is now a rising HS senior, and the college games are well under way. Here’s how it goes around here: kids in the top 25% of the class have been talking to each other for years about colleges they have heard are “good” and all the others that “I wouldn’t touch that place with a ten foot pole, and I don’t even want to visit. It is beneath me to even discuss that hole.” “Good” colleges are all out of state, expensive, and hot (at the moment). The ones that are beneath contempt are instate, and mostly public. They really have no idea what they are talking about.</p>

<p>Right now, as the rising seniors are making lists, the instate public schools are only there because parents demand it. Later in their senior year, reality begins to set in as kids are denied by their reaches, and as the financial aid packets arrive. Next year at this time most of our graduates will have a much more realistic viewpoint of just how hard it is to get into the “elite” universities and just how difficult it actually is to get into our state flagship. A healthy number of the top 25% will be heading to our instate publics, and a healthy number will be heading to lovely colleges and universities throughout the country. A couple will be heading to one of the Ivies.</p>

<p>Below the top 25%, the process is a lot less frenzied. The vast majority of our graduates will go on to college, but with much less drama.</p>

<p>And two years from now, a healthy handful of the kids who can’t bring themselves to even begin to consider our state flagship right now will be bouncing back to it or another of our instate schools. </p>

<p>Planner03 is right. Many times, it is the student who wants the prestigious school, and the parent who must be the bad guy and say that you need to have lots of options in case things just do not work out. That was me five years ago. My son wanted the Ivies, MIT or Duke. It did not happen. So he took a National Merit offer from an OOS public and had an awesome college experience. Recently, he wanted Harvard or Stanford for law school. Again, waitlisted. He took an incredible offer from UVA Law and cannot wait for classes to start in August.</p>

<p>His advice to his kid brother: Take a great financial offer from a school that offers opportunities to you. </p>

<p>His kid brother did just that. He got a full tuition scholarship to an OOS public, and he will run track/cross country at the D2 level. The school has what he wants academically, too. </p>

<p>Know what his fellow grads said? You settled for a less prestigious school. </p>

<p>Know what he said? He got what he wanted … and he will not be graduating with huge amounts of debt.</p>

<p>We are proud of his decision. So is the college counselor at his high school. Each kid with whom she talks, she points out the problems of student debt. She told me at the start of the school year that she had three former students drop out of school after three years. They could not afford to finish. They needed to get jobs to save some money before returning to school. </p>

<p>The last two posts essentially sum it all up. What I find ironic is that it is often the non-superstar kids who are the most grounded about all of this and know they will do well in life even with a degree from only a (gasp!) so-so state school. It’s often kids who are considered the “smartest” in school who come across as the most naive and uninformed about what in many cases is the first adult decision of their lives. </p>