<p>So for Dartmouth, if I am applying and so is a friend who asks me to write a recommendation, would it look bad if I said that I didn't think she was a good fit for Dartmouth? I don't want to look vindictive, I'm just being honest. What do you think...I know it might be a little mean, but I don't think she really wants to go there anyways, and she probably wouldn't like it if she went (never visited, totally opposite of the other schools shes applying to)</p>
<p>Thoughts?</p>
<p>As a student who also applied to Dartmouth, I would recommend against doing it. Even if she never finds out, she asked you because she trusts you as a friend and expects that you'll write her a good rec. I know that if I found out the person who wrote my peer rec had said that I was a "poor fit," especially if I ended up rejected/waitlisted, I would be crushed. Not only would my hopes for attending the school be ruined but also my faith in the friendship.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I don't think she really wants to go there anyways, and she probably wouldn't like it if she went
[/quote]
Well, there's obviously some reason why she's applying... this is a gross assumption. I had legitimate reasons for wanting to apply to Brown, my last choice school, even though it wouldn't outwardly seem like a good "fit" for me. (In my case, I wanted to be able to cross-enroll with RISD.)</p>
<p>ok ok i suppose - i just kinda feel like that is my "duty" as a peer recommender. i always said that if i was a teacher i would be extremely honest with my recommendations in order to distinguish the best.</p>
<p>but i'll stick with a "nice" recommendation, discussing more personal qualities rather than academics</p>
<p>I am sorry, but your job in writing a peer recommendation is to bring out the positive qualities of your friend, not to screw them over. Your job is definitely not to determine if they are a good fit for the school they chose. If you do not feel like you can help out this person by writing this letter then don't write it and give it to someone who can. The school will seriously question your friend's judgement in selecting you to write the letter in the first place.</p>
<p>You wrote:
I don't think she really wants to go there anyways, and she probably wouldn't like it if she went"</p>
<p>This statement alone means that you have some kind of bias toward this applicant and shows that you cannot truly be objective. You should just be honest and say that you have reservations about writing the recommendation and you don't feel that your are the best person because of a potential conflict of interest. If you can totally back out of it, you should.</p>
<p>Remember that the peer recs for both you and her are probably going to be read by the same regional admissions person, and with you also being an applicant your dinging her may come back to ding you as your character is also going be evaluated (in this situation twice -how you perceive others and how they perceive you). Your writing something negative about her especially as an applicant may make you appear petty, condescending, insecure and competitive all of the things which are really not part of the Dartmouth culture.</p>
<p>If you are applying to Dartmouth as well you should definitely recuse yourself from writing a recommendation for your friend. Does your friend know that you are also applying?</p>
<p>recuse yourself </p>
<p>Thanks Robyrm, I was having a little brain freeze (or senior moment) and could not find the word.</p>
<p>Ilcapo,</p>
<p>Definitely recuse yourself!!</p>
<p>Ditto Sybbie & Robyrm,</p>
<p>I would tell her that you are very flattered to have been asked, but when you thought it over, given that you were applying to the same school, you wondered about the propriety-- it would be better for her to find someone who is not applying to do the rec (someone who would not be "competing" with her for one of the few slots at Dartmouth from your same school) and thus someone who could be totally effusive in praising her.</p>
<p>No matter what you feel about the girl and her fit or lack thereof with Dartmouth, the fact that you, too, are applying to Dartmouth presents a conflict of interests. You definitely should recuse yourself. You don't have to give any reason beyond the fact, that since you are also an applicant to the same college, it is not appropriate for you to write a peer recommendation and leave it at that.</p>
<p>Yea, guys i think that I was looking for someone to say that. I really don't think its appropriate for me to write her recommendation, and I think it would probably hurt my app as well, because I would look petty - as was said before.</p>
<p>Thanks for the advice, thats what I needed to hear.</p>
<p>Actually, I know of several sets of kids who wrote peer recs for each other for Dartmouth and they both got in a few times! But I don't like the idea because of the strain it can cause when one person gets in, and the other does not. No one needs that kind of extra pressure. </p>
<p>Ilcapo, I really am a bit concerned about your post. It is my understanding that when you are asked by someone, or if you ask someone, to provide a recommendation for something, protocol dictates that you demur if you cannot give a positive and honest recommendation. There is a trust there when this request is made, that the person giving the rec is on the side of the person he is recommending. At every school I know, teachers will just graciously bow out of giving a rec if they cannot come up with something nice. If the kid is desperate, they will sit and go over what they have to say, and whether that is acceptable to the student. The counselor's rec which is required does not have this implicit stipulation, though these days it seems that most recs are pretty vanilla and standard.</p>
<p>But I can tell you that I would not ever agree to write a rec for someone who is hoping and assuming that I am giving a positive reference, and turn around and say that I do not believe that the person is a good fit for a program. </p>
<p>I also do not believe that anyone is filling out that Dartmouth app as a lark, regardless of what is being said.</p>
<p>Well that is why I am going to tell her that I "don't have the time right now with all the applications due" - I really just needed to know your philosophy and the basic moral responsiblity of a recommender. Obviously this is the first time I've been put into the situation so...I have learned.</p>
<p>what?? you can ask ur friends to write you recs?? even if they are in high school??</p>
<p>Ilcapo, look at it this way. If the shoe was on the other foot and you were asking this same "friend" to write a recommendation for you, wouldn't you prefer that she politely decline rather than agree and then stab you in the back with a negative recommendation? If the answer is yes, then you know what to do. It's the old Golden Rule - Do unto others...</p>
<p>Ilcapo, others gave you great advice. </p>
<p>I just want to say that your post disturbs me a little. A recommendation is NOT the same as a letter of reference. When you are moving on a with a new job, sometimes the new job asks the former employer for a letter of reference and they must reply whether they think positively or negatively about you. The guidance counselor report to colleges is a bit like this. He/she must write a letter about you. Hopefully he/she will be positive but she/he did not CHOOSE to write on your behalf. Contrast that to a letter of recommendation....such as from a teacher, supplementary rec, or a peer rec. The only people who should be writing those are folks who CHOOSE to write on someone's behalf. That's right ....on someone's BEHALF. It is meant to be recommending the applicant....not a letter of reference of good/bad about them. If you agree to write a rec for someone, it assumes you are offering to write positively on their behalf or you should bow out. So, first off, the fact that you would agree to write for this girl and then propose the letter not be that positive or help her, is inconscientable to me. </p>
<p>Then, you make broad assumptions to say the school is not a good fit for her. Who are you to even say that really? And besides that, she would not be applying if she had no interest at all. If someone applies to any college, they are hoping that they are presenting themselves well and will get admitted. Maybe the school is not a first choice but if they could not give a care, then why bother doing all the work of the app, ya know? This was not for YOU to assume. </p>
<p>Then comes the issue that others brought up. You are both applicants. This makes for what could be a difficult situation. I mean it COULD work as Jamimom mentioned it has for some other pairs of peers. In those cases, I assume both wrote positively for one another. Thankfully both got in. It would not be that pleasant for one to get in and one not and to think either had a "hand" in the other's process. It would raise what could be unnecessary question marks. But in YOUR case, it just goes to show why it is NOT a great idea because honestly my observation in your case is that you are being competitive here because you are applying to the same school and are practically admitting that that is playing a part in your thinking and some vindictiveness is coming out here. You want to go out of your way to be "honest" about her less positive qualities or interests in the college. You are admitting that it could hurt your app to look so petty (and you are right, it would because you are being competitive and petty and not being a true friend...they would wonder why you wrote negatively about her and can only surmise it was due to being in competition with your own app.....because most assume that rec writers write positively about someone and you would be writing negatively and that would raise a question as to your motivations, rightfully so in this case). </p>
<p>I think you should not have agreed to write for someone unless you wanted to write positively. It is not like a required reference by you. The poor girl assumed you would write well for her when you said "yes". But ya know, you now have the perfect out. You can explain that you don't want to write for her because you are also applying and it is awkward and a conflict of interest and you don't want her to have to question if she did not get in, how you may have played any part in that. As an interviewer myself, I do not interview applicants I know. I want to be objective. As well, I don't want to be blamed for not "getting them in". You do need to recuse yourself. </p>
<p>However, I am glad you shared this here because any actions you would have taken if you had proceeded as planned, shows poor character. It's ok in that you are young. But you do need to realize that these kinds of things do reflect on someone's character so think twice next time. </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>Thanks for the post Susan. I actually have already written one for another student, so I can also just say that I don't want to write another because it might be too similar. I'm sure she will understand. Either way, the other recommendation was exceptional, so I hope I did my part in some way.</p>
<p>It was actually quite fun to be on the other side!</p>
<p>Yikes, when I read the original post I thought Ilcapo meant he would verbally tell the other student that he didin't think she was a good fit- NOT that he would tell Dartmouth! It's kind of shocking ot think that a friend would do that to another friend.</p>
<p>I should not be surprised. My kids do all kinds of things that really get me upset, and many times they just did not know the etiquette that seems like common sense to me. The old "do unto others" rule really applies here. How would Ilcapo feel if someone he asks to write a rec for him took his tack on the matter?</p>
<p>Not all of the kids who wrote for each other got in, but they all had fun doing it. I don't think Dartmouth had a collaborative project in mind when they put in the peer review, but I don't think it hurt either. My son did not get into Dartmouth, but he had a great peer review; the kid just gave it to my son to mail and to read before mailing. It can be a really fun thing and show a whole new side to a kid if it is done in a light hearted way. But the way this admissions situation seems to be heading (or have headed) these days, every little thing starts carrying just too much weight!</p>
<p>Ahh this has been a kind of traumatic post. I swear I have morals...I just didn't know what the purpose of a rec form was!</p>
<p>It doesn't make me feel very good to see all these people saying I disturb them....I think thats why I ASKED and didnt just ACT.</p>
<p>My daughter turned in peer recs for Dartmouth (required) and Williams (optional).
She and the writer had been in school together since 6th grade. </p>
<p>My daughter was her friend's peer editor for AP writing their junior year and they were also peer leaders together as seniors teaching a 7th grade advisory class. When the friend gave her the recommendation and the daughter read it she was moved to tears. The friend felt really honored to be chosen to write it and thought that it was a true testament to their friendship to be trusted with something so important.</p>
<p>Will a stellar recommendation get you in- who's to say. But I believe that a less than stelllar peer recommendation will keep you out. Dartmouth knows that they are going to have a ton of smart people applying to school but the character of the person is also important as they seem to take real pride in the classes that they build. Since I can only talk about to some extent of the class of 08, I think that the person's character does come across in the class, because they are some of the nicest people that you want ot meet and there is a grent sense of cohesiveness in the class.</p>
<p>I remember going to an information session and the adcom told a story about an applicant who looked great on paper but the writer of his peer rec said that he was a jerk and a grade grubber- he did not get in. </p>
<p>Since you are also applying, how would you feel if your recommender wrote "Well he is just settling because he really wanted to go to Princeton, he thinks that his teacher was giving him a hard time because she dinged him for leaving her class early, we thought about taking the GED to get out of H.S. because he felt that taking Gym and Psych was a monumental waste of his time". Not very flattering. </p>
<p>The golden rule is to treat people that way you want to be treated. The platinum rule says to treat others the way they want to be treated. This person has placed a lot of confidence in you but it seems sadly that the confidence has been misplaced.</p>
<p>Remember, character is who you are when no one is watching.</p>