I don’t believe she would need anything but reading level for a Math PhD but I would rather she learn to speak a foreign language. It’s literally been the biggest struggle of the kids’ education for me.
I did not know there were any schools with no distribution requirements although I might have guessed that about St. John’s and Antioch (are they completely closed yet?).
Who runs the math study abroad program in Hungary?
Look into https://www.budapestsemesters.com/.
Math PhD programs may require reading knowledge of French, German, and/or Russian, tested by having the student read a math paper written in the language and explaining it.
Regarding no distribution requirements, Brown and Amherst are the usual examples that may be suitable for math majors (Evergreen State has a completely open curriculum, but probably not enough math offerings). St. John’s College is the opposite – it has a core curriculum that is the entire curriculum.
@CCtoAlaska, I was tagged by @ucbalumnus as someone who knows about MIT, but before I respond, a question for you.
What is your daughter’s classification now? Is she considered a college student (in which case, she cannot apply as a freshman) or is she considered a full-time high school/dual-enrolled student?
For the sake of the discussion, I’ll assume the student is a freshman applicant this fall and is dual-enrolled at a community college.
My eldest son graduated from MIT 2 1/2 years ago. He was homeschooled and dual-enrolled at the local community college from 7th-12th grade (part-time by choice).
He amassed 55 credits from the CC including all lower division math and physics courses except Discrete Math. MIT actually took his Calculus III, Linear Algebra and Differential Equations (along with his AP Calc BC score of 5), as well as two semesters of Arabic, for transfer credit, even though the Arabic, in particular, was used to meet high school requirements.
We submitted all the proper documentation and for whatever reason, they gave him transfer credit, and he was able to start in upper division math as a freshman and finished his math requirements in two years. They did not accept any physics courses because their physics department (at least back then) only allows for placement out of, or into, certain levels rather than actual transfer credit. Even for both Physics C exams, a student had to have scored 5’s on both of them to place out of freshman Mechanics.
Now, MIT does allow students to take exams to place out of various classes including physics, I do believe, but my son was too lazy for that, ha-ha.
Don’t know how useful any of that information was, but there it is anyway!
@sbjdorlo thanks for that helpful information. MIT says explicitly on their website they do not transfer in dual enrollment credits but I also think there may be a distinction for some colleges between credits earned on campus as a normal college student and credits earned at a HS with a teacher trained to teach the college-level class (but lacking the ordinary academic background of a college professor). So that might be a distinction they are drawing, too. My daughter is in her college freshman year/high school junior year but isn’t doing anything for HS anymore, just majoring in math full time. To graduate HS for the homeschool diploma, she just needs two semesters of English. She went to public high school for 2 years and then left. MIT is the dream, naturally, but totally out of reach both financially and, for her, academically probably, too. They are very clear As are required in all math and science courses. She’s more of a B student and hasn’t had an A in math since 6th grade. Her SAT scores have been a lot lower in math than reading. Maybe she will be a late bloomer :).
So, in response to your question about her classification, she is equally a college freshman and high school junior. Her status at community college is as a math major. They don’t make a distinction at except in terms of sports eligibility and cost of tuition. The only reason she is enrolled as a homeschooling high schooler was because she was too young to drop out (only 15 instead of the required 16). And, in our state, she’s too young for the GED.
So is she applying to colleges this fall? If so, is she applying as a freshman?
And yes, you’re right; grades matter, but MIT is hardly the only game in town. Furthermore, it matters little where one goes to school for u/g; she can focus on schools like MIT for grad school.
We were very fortunate to be in the “sweet spot” for financial aid, and we spent less than 10K total for four years due to MIT’s very generous aid and my son’s yearly Corporate National Merit Scholarship. We know how incredibly fortunate he was.
Though my son started at the CC in 7th grade, he was not interested in either earning a degree from the CC or ultimately graduating early from high school, though he considered it in 9th and 11th grade. He just wanted to take lots of college math and physics courses. For him, attending MIT for 4 full years was life-changing and very valuable.
For my middle son, who withdrew from an Ivy League after 10 weeks and is trying again as a transfer student 2 years later, he won’t get that experience, and he doesn’t care.
I wish your DD the best.
Thanks @sbjdorlo! I actually started this thread to ask which of the dual admissions transfer schools that her community college has transfer agreements with had the best physics departments and people decided my daughter should be trying for elite schools instead :). Mainly I was trying to figure out which open houses to sign up for first.
She is looking at transferring after she completes her AS, so applying next Fall, I guess. I had her unschool for 8th grade and it was the best thing ever. She really discovered what she loves during that year. I don’t blame your son for taking his time to figure out what he wanted to do and doing it all on his terms and on his own timeline.
The best school for physics (or Math) from your list is Temple. Temple Honors will be better (if she doesn’t want competition, an added benefit is there Temple Honors doesn’t have competition - all the students are in already, there’s no weedout; in addition, Honors students who like investigating the material and interacting with each other tend to enjoy honors classes more and do better in them.) Basically Temple Honors would provide her the atmosphere and support for learning that sounds very important to her.
Some elite schools were recommended because 1) math PHDs recruit there because they know math is taught as ‘pure math’, with proofs, and not as an applied subject for Economics or as a Team subject. [At some universities, the only section of calculus that includes proofs is the honors section. At others, it’s not even available]. It is NOT related to the quality of teaching at other colleges but to the goal of math, since there are specific schools you go to if you want to study pure math, feeding the loop. 2) the schools with open curriculum such as Amherst, Hamilton, or Grinnell (or Brown) are all elite but there’s a lot for learning for its own sake going on, especially at Grinnell. 3) study abroad options matter.
I would add that she should look into Bryn Mawr, Smith, and Mount Holyoke, perhaps Agnes Scott (not Barnard or Wellesley because the vibe is competitive rather than supportive and she doesn’t want that). Women’s colleges will offer lots of support to women who want to study physics or math - support that cannot be assumed elsewhere.
Since you’ve mentioned colleges abroad, I assume she’ll be applying to Oxford or Cambridge, Imperial, Warwick, Durham, Edinburgh or St Andrews, plus the Polytechnique BA?
Then, her subject tests would matter more. The best date for her to take these would likely be May, right after she completed this year’s classes.
In terms of open houses, Temple (+Honors), Bryn Mawr (even if it doesn’t have an agreement with the CC).
The Princeton Review offers a sampling, “Great Schools for Mathematics Majors.” If financial support of some type can be arranged, your daughter may have top choices to consider beyond (the excellent) MIT:
Harvey Mudd
MIT
UChicago
Caltech
Haverford
Harvard
Hamilton
Bowdoin
Reed
Rice
Carleton
Grinnell
Macalester
Bryn Mawr
URochester
St. Olaf
@MYOS1634 she’s interested in continental universities. She knows about ETH but hasn’t done much research beyond that one university. I would not send her to England. I would love to send her to Germany for a year so she can pass the language test to enroll there or in Switzerland. It’s not her thing to learn languages, though, so I don’t know how successful she would be.
I’m amazed that anyone would think she would have a chance of getting into a top college in the US unless she gets in through the back door. Her profile is pretty hohum (3.2 UW GPA and possibly a 1450, maybe a 1500 if she gets really lucky, on the SAT). You have to remember this is a kid who did not test into a single AP class in HS, would not have made it into their IB program and was a pretty average student. I would not say she’s weak academically, per se, but she’s not strong like Carleton or Harvard. There are probably 200 kids just at her HS that have better admissions profiles than her (and will be applying to the same pool of colleges). She has a much better chance at schools that reward standardized test scores and don’t expect a litany of leadership positions and fancy experience.
Not England because of Brexit?
Would you consider Scotland (St Andrews and UEdinburgh don’t care about GPA and only want to see test scores, both are very good in stem, and would accomodate math+physics)?
There’s ETH and EPFL but these are sink/swim. I’d be more hesitznt about them than St Andrews and UEdinburgh (which are demanding but quite supportive.)
Colleges will primarily look at her college GPA and whether she took core classes. (That’s why I listed what she should take, optimally).
Emphasize to her that French or German WILL matter for math.
You could also ask if she’d be willing to spend a year in a stem secondary school - France will soon have an option for final year students to take 9hours of math+6 hours of physics a week. A German Gymnasium has high level math and physics, too. Obviously she might not be amenable if she wants to run through math classes.
If she’s into proofs, she needs to show that - ask her professors what she can do, formally. She needs to channel her interest, corral her intellectual energy.
We’re not talking Carleton nor Harvard. But Bryn Mawr, yes possibly - depending how she does at the cc.
Temple Honors, perhaps even Pitt honors or even Schreyer (Schreyer would be the toughest because they don’t send test scores, they look at course rigor and professors evaluate the essays to see if that’s a kid they’d want in their class… But proof based math all throughout if that’s what she wants. So, Schreyer would be a hail Mary pass. But Pitt mostly looks at test scores so if he scored 1480-1500 she’d have a good shot. )
But, yes, kids who like proofs are a rare breed which make some reaches more possible than they’d be otherwise. Doesn’t mean the reaches have magically turned into safeties. But she can think broadly, visit broadly.
Brexit and other reasons. I would want her closer to family/friends and that is the continent. Also for financial reasons and second-language acquisition. I don’t think there are longterm job prospects for an American in the British Isles although I have look at the visa situations.
She’s driving me crazy with the language. It’s the only thing where I feel like I need to pressure her a LOT. You HAVE to have some semesters of the language as a prerequisite for the kinds of study abroad she would like to do. She got into a German class and then got pulled out because the professor hadn’t bothered to get their clearances (I don’t understand how a college wouldn’t have at least some 17 year old freshman, but whatever). Finding college German that will not cost $2400/class is the bane of my existence.
My personal ideal would be 2 years AS here, then a year at gymnasium in either Switzerland or Germany, then transfer into whatever university here has accepted her (with a year’s deferral). I don’t know if that really makes sense but I like the idea of gymnasium just being extra to learn the language and not being high stakes in terms of replacing a year of HS here where you don’t really learn the subject matter because of the language barriers. She would already know the subjects so she could concentrate on the language acquisition.
She is going to talk to people this week and she’s been invited by the cc to apply for some opportunities so she’ll be doing that over winter break.
I think once she’s 16 she could probably work as a tutor at the college, maybe even as a lab assistant. So she’s looking into that, too. To tutor you need an A in the class (not a lot of people qualify from the classes she’s taking now!). If she doesn’t qualify, she’s hoping to still be able to tutor the foundational classes and the classes she tested out of.
After reading through this thread and the one on the homeschool forum, I think you are underselling your Dd and that unfortunately multiple missteps have been made. Her SAt scores as a 10th grader could definitely be competitive scores as a sr. But, the biggest mistake I see bc of her desired goals of math and physics is the rush to calculus. https://artofproblemsolving.com/articles/calculus-trap
Skipping algebra 2 and racing forward to precal and cal could end up undermining her overall strength and mathematical understanding. Since she is now homeschooling, she has a world of options outside of just continued rapid progression. If she really wants pure math, I would apply the breaks and take a new path. I would not enroll in math at the CC next semester. Since you say she loves theory and proofs, let her spend the next 1 1/2 yrs doing precisely that. She can study math through AoPS and really take her math understanding to a new level.
Fwiw, I think you are confused about what admissions is telling you. She will only be a freshman for FA if she applies as a freshman, not a transfer student. She can earn her associates and still be a freshman if she earned her associates while in high school. If she graduates from high school and then completes her associates, she will not be a freshman for FA, she will be a transfer student.
Another fwiw, I know students do not need to attend a top UG school to be accepted to fully funded grad prorgrams. Our physics ds attended Alabama. I don’t think you have to jump from A to Z when she is only 15 yrs old. Right now, if she really wants to pursue research later, she needs to focus on being a high school student. The best way to succeed in her long term goals is to succeed at each stage in the process. First, complete a strong high school base that will prepare her for 4 yr college success. Then she needs to spend 4 yrs in college taking all the courses she can and participating in 3+ yrs of UG research. Then, she applies to grad school. If she rushes through CC right now to rush to the U as a Jr with the goal of graduating in 2 yrs, she will only be harming, not enhancing, her chances at grad school. She needs a high GPA, strong coursework, research, and LOR for grad school apps. Her coursework will be bare bones minimum if her trajectory is to graduate from college in 3 yrs from now.
It may seem completely counterintuitive, but slowing down and backing up will be more likely to help her achieve her long term objectives than pursuing her current racing forward trajectory.
I strongly second the above.
If she loves proofs, she’d probably love Art of Problem Solving courses.
Rushing is counter productive. But finding the proper balance between depth and speed is tough.
A caveat:
for Physics, check what support is granted young women, if there are female tenured/tenure track faculty.
for math, the standing of the department matters a lot, its orientation (teaching? Support for other subjects? Etc), Advanced courses offered every year, when proof based classes start.
@MYOS1634 there is no one to teach her. She is not really homeschooling in that sense. At her high school, if she had stayed, she would have been shut out of any more physics classes, probably other science electives, too. So she would have had to go heavy on humanities and social science instead senior year as electives. The only classes available would have been the normal math/science sequence - chem and Alg II and then precalc senior year and maybe she would have been accepted to Biology II for senior year? I’m not sure if she would have been accepted for a science elective senior year. Everything was very competitive. Honestly, that didn’t leave her with a lot of choices and I don’t blame her for leaving to try doing something else. In two years at that school (a top feeder school to Ivies) she did not write one research paper! She really wasn’t getting a good general education. She had choices and CC to a transfer school is what she chose. I think she has a good sense of her “lane”, KWIM?
I absolutely do not mean that she should return to her high school!
I mean she should try taking Art of Problem Solving classes and doing them thoroughly (doing them as quickly as possible without trying to think the problems through is kinnof a waste. They’re totally different from typical HS classes. ) They focus on…math thinking and problem solving. Not this alteration of ‘problem’ for “operation/equation” but rather an actual problem with several steps that require thinking to figure out and solve.
@CCtoAlaska AoPS has an online school and forums where students can ask questions.
I feel like that is what she is doing in her CC classes, though - really thinking through problems not at an operational level but at a high level of problem-solving. HS was all cramming formulas.
Can she take online AOPS classes? Somewhere I have some of the books…
She is very happy in her classes, though, and she has zero interest in leaving. The math classes have a reputation of being superior to the local 4 year schools’ classes (including the Ivy) so I’m not worried about rigor. One of her core professors is very well-known in his field of research and she has a good rapport with him. There are a large number of math majors so I’m not worried about her not finding her niche. This is good for her. I mean, she can always go to a 4 year school after if they give her enough money. She can choose.
AoPS is different. Have her give a look and see if she likes it. She wouldn’t necessarily be taking a calculus class - she may get a kick out of having two different math classes in two different areas of mathematics.