@nosyllaste Thanks! So I received admission to it last week but I’m still trying to understand what grad schools it would open up to me (i’m pre-law) and how it compares to schools like umich and georgetown (my top choices)? I have heard from all my schools except my reaches and while the others are ranked higher, this program appeals to me the most but I would be paying OOS. I’m v. confused on whether I should attend or not.
@renwa Admission into any law school will depend primarily on how you do in undergrad (grades) and your LSAT score, and you can study almost any major and still get accepted to a law school. I don’t think which undergrad college you attended will matter much, but I am sure Plan II has a good reputation. So you should look at other considerations, cost, et cet and determine what is the best fit for you.
Hi, UT’s website has a lot of info on Plan II. So does www.publicuniversityhonors.com - this is an up to date resource. Plan II produces Fulbrights, Rhodes Scholars (Plan II had winners in 15 & 17), etc., so I’m sure U.S. law schools are familiar with the degree plan.
OK, something I’m qualified to comment on! 
For those of you who were rejected from Plan II, and may be considering attending UT anyway, perhaps swayed by the encouraging words in the “go away” letter - don’t believe them.
Absolutely, positively, do NOT attend UT - it will be a terrible experience for anyone who was smart enough to be competitive for Plan II, yet rejected.
I applied to Plan II last year (with whoop-di-doo stats) and was rejected. I foolishly chose to attend UT (with a COLA major) anyway.
Don’t. Just don’t.
Here’s the deal - there’s a clear hierarchy at UT, with Cockrell at the top, McCombs and CNS close behind, etc. COLA is pretty much at the bottom, barely above UGS.
So if you’re in COLA, but not in Plan II, the default assumption will be that you couldn’t get into a “good major”, and are in the bottom half of smarts w/r/t the student body.
If that sounds like something you want to subject yourself to - have at it.
@AndyDufresne I’m sorry to hear about your experience. Can you be more specific about what you don’t like? Thanks
@AndyDufresne This is a big fear I have for DD who was accepted to College of Communication. She was invited to Best of Texas!in March (I think this is just a visit–not a program) but rejected for Plan II. Any additional info you want to post is appreciated. UT is huge without a smaller subgroup like the honors programs…
My dissatisfaction stems from two main areas:
- Course difficulty/quality
- Difficulty finding a peer group
The first one is pretty obvious. Plan II students, right out of the chute, start their freshman year with TWO discussion-style courses with 20-30 students and an actual professor. On top of that, they have access to honors sections in other disciplines. Finally, they also have access to the Plan II counselors, who can pull strings for Plan II kids to get prerequisites waived, get them into closed sections, etc. Of course, I got none of that.
What I did get was a dog’s breakfast of whatever was available on the morning I registered. (Keep in mind, I brought in something like 40 credits’ worth of AP, so I needed very few of the typical freshman courses.) I ended up with two courses that got me absolutely nothing towards graduation, another two courses that yielded 2-3 flags and a UGS fulfillment, and ONE upperclass course in my minor. (I was only able to enroll in that because that particular dept. doesn’t enforce prerequisites.) Nothing in my major at all.
The courses were laughably easy, with the lone exception of the upperclass course (which I still got an A- in). I ended up with a 3.9-something. Setting aside the junior-level class, for the other four courses, I put in 2-3 hours a week of studying, max. I was hoping for college to be a worthy challenge, not a flippin’ joke.
As for the teaching/learning environment (again setting aside my upperclass course), it was just flat-out miserable. Each class had between 200-500 students. I’m quite sure none of the professors (aka lecturers or grad students) ever knew my name or would recognize me on the sidewalk. That, in spite of being one of the top students (in two of the courses, actually THE top student, according to Canvas).
Spring semester is going a little better, mostly because my AP credits moved me way up on the registration priority list, and because I actively sought out upper-division seminar-style classes, but I still have a couple of the massive anonymous courses with bonehead classmates.
The peer group issue is a bit harder to discuss, at least without coming off as an arrogant jerk.
Here’s the deal - in HS, I didn’t enjoy classes with a bunch of unmotivated classmates with limited curiosity. I bet y’all didn’t either. I purposely took as many AP classes as possible in order to boost the average intelligence level of my peers. By senior year, most of my HS classes would have, say, 3-4 NMSF kids, and a bunch more Commended-level types.
I had an expectation that college would be even better - that I’d get to know and hang out with a LOT of really intelligent people, rather than just a few. That hasn’t happened, to say the least.
Plan II, of course, produces an instant peer group, where almost everyone is smart and hard-working. Building something like that on my own at UT has, so far, been proven not feasible.
Part of that is the segregation created by the Honors Quad. I’m not living there, since I’m not eligible. But almost all of the brainiac freshmen are there. They’ve formed their peer group, while I’m dealing with the drunk fool in the next room in San Jac. What am I supposed to do - hang out in the front foyer of Andrews? Not likely.
Another source of the difficulty is the overall quality of the COLA student body. Like I said upthread, most of the smartest people are found in Cockrell, McCombs, and CNS, not in COLA. (The Plan II folks are segregated by their special classes and their own private clubhouse in the CLA building.) In essence, COLA attracts fewer top-notch students than, say, CNS. Then, they “shave off” the top tier of those into Plan II. What’s left is your peer group. Read it and weep.
Edit: Re: OakTree444 - College of Communication is another one of the colleges that will make students/instructors assume your daughter is a bozo. Sorry - just telling the truth.
For example, consider my FIG. This was offered up as a viable alternative for Plan II. I did make a few social friends in my FIG. However, of the 15 or so people in the FIG, 10 of them are going to be taking RHE 306 in the spring. That means they weren’t able to make a 26 on the ACT writing or a 600 on the SAT writing. You think there are any NMSF kids in there? For a guy who got (no joke) a 36 composite on the ACT - ya know, it’s just not the same level.
It’s awkward to say, but my classmates, by and large, are actually at a lower level than what I had in HS. Strange but true.
It’s not all bad - I am in a couple of interesting clubs with fun, intelligent fellow members. (Even in there, I’ve had to battle the “COLA = idiot or goof-off” assumption.) So that’s an hour or two in the evening. Meanwhile, my days in the classroom and my nights in the dorm, I’m shaking my head at what passes for my “peers”.
That’s my story. Call me full of myself. But UT for a smart student frozen out of Honors? You should forget it. Take it from Shawshank Andy.
@AndyDufresne This seems to be geared towards prospective COLA students. What about someone who got into McCombs but not BHP? Cockrell without engineering honors? What do you think about that?
@AndyDufresne If I may ask, what is your exact major? Do you think you will stay at UT Austin?
@AndyDufresne just out of curiousity what is your long range goal with a cola major? I get the sense that you are a little unhappy with your major choice also possibly or am i just reading between the lines? Also did you apply to any colleges that would have been more exclusive such as Rice? I have heard the huge weedout classes at UT are as you described. DD is accepted into neuroscience there which is hopefully an interesting major.
For those who are not accepted into Plan II there are still some departmental honors programs in COLA that you can apply to after you are already a student at UT. For instance, the English Honors program requires a 3.5 GPA and you can apply once you have taken a writing flag course. You can apply as early as the spring of your freshman year. This will give you access to small honors courses even if you did not get into Plan II. My daughter did both Plan II and English honors - she was Plan II as a freshman (and remained in Plan II through her four years). I think she was English Honors by sophomore or junior year. She had to apply to the English Honors program - it was not automatic. She found her English Honors courses to be good, they were not a joke. You do not have to be in Plan II to get into English Honors, it is a separate program.
@AndyDufresne thanks for the detail, and I’m genuinely sorry to hear that. I hear where you’re coming from, and I don’t think you’re full of yourself. I was a UT liberal arts major, non-plan II, eons ago. I kind of felt the same way at the beginning, but found my upper division classes more challenging and interesting. I hope that you will, too. I suggest that you find some sympatico profs to talk to - they would welcome hearing that you want to be challenged more - maybe they would involve you in one of their projects.
Also, look into Junior Fellows - for liberal arts juniors & seniors. I participated in JF and loved it - you get to design your own project, can apply for grant money, and get to be a part of a student community that I think you would really like - a small group of students who are talented, motivated, and working on all kinds of interesting things. Bottom line: plan II is great, but it’s a big school and there are many other great opportunities - you just have to work harder to find them. And btw, having to work stuff out yourself, rather than having it handed to you on a silver platter, is really better training for life after college, anyway. Whatever you decide, good luck and don’t get discouraged!
Wow, I certainly didn’t expect to generate that kind of response!
To address the topics brought up, in order:
–
Cockrell/No Eng Honors; McCombs/No BHP: I can only give you my second-hand impressions on those situations.
I think Cockrell w/o Eng Honors would be a different situation, as simply being in Cockrell, particularly in a competitive major (i.e. EE vs. Civil E) is a big thing in itself. Also, Eng Honors isn’t as big a deal as Plan II. It’s unlikely you’d get people loooking down on you for not jumping through the Honors hoops.
As for McCombs/No BHP: Yeah, there I think it would make a difference, for reasons similar to why not being in Plan II is such a buzzkill. The introductory BHP courses are head-and-shoulders above the regular McCombs, in both content and delivery. On top of that, there’s a clear two-tier system in place there, with firms that come looking for ONLY kids from BHP, not regular McCombs students. It would depend on what your other options are, but if you’re a BHP-level student and get the thin envelope, I’d think you’d be happier elsewhere. (The situations aren’t 100% comparable, since it’s possible to re-apply to BHP and get in as a sophomore. So there’d still be hope as a freshman.)
–
My major - I’m purposely not explicitly stating my major, to try to avoid completely outing myself to those who only know me casually. (Clearly, anyone who knows me well can read this and know for sure that it’s the IRL me.)
–
Staying at UT-Austin:
Yeah, I’m going to stick it out, for two reasons:
-
I’m stuck. I don’t see a viable transfer path. Sure, I have the grades. but the course selection was garbage, and won’t impress anyone. Beyond that, to transfer to a “good school”, you need at least one (often two) LORs from professors. Uh oh. (Review the post above where I note that all my classes had 200-500 students.) The only “content providers” who even know my name are my FIG facilitator (a sophomore), and a couple of my TAs (one an undergrad, one a new grad student with extremely limited English skills). I didn’t even take a course in my major in the fall. So, I’m SOL as far as getting any recommendations to get out of this place.
-
Time to degree. One positive of getting bonged from Plan II is that I can apply pretty much all of my AP credit towards my degree plan. Even with spinning my wheels my first semester, I can be done with UT in a total of 5 semesters, as long as I double up/triple up on my major courses. If I’m not enjoying myself, I can at least get the pain over with quickly.
–
Long-range goal: I intend to get a PhD in my major field. Since my major here at UT is just an assembly line, my best path forward is to plow out of here as quickly as possible, travel for a semester, pick up a “pay to play” 1-year master’s degree elsewhere (during what would have been my senior year at UT), and use THAT degree/research experience to land a paid PhD spot.
–
Happiness with major: There are schools where my major is a well-respected field. Then there’s UT, where it’s largely a second choice or fallback for those who weren’t able to get into their chosen college at UT, or who are flunking out of their original major.
Most of the students don’t have a sincere interest in the subject. In return, most of the professors don’t have a sincere interest in teaching the undergraduates.
That’s on me for not having discovered that ahead of time. Had I known what low regard my major is held in at UT, or how most of the undergrad classes are taught in gymnasium-sized rooms by adjuncts and fixed-term lecturers, I never would have attended here.
–
Other schools: I came down to the Plan II dog-and-pony show, and drank the Flavor Aid. Given the admissions stats posted, I was (wrongly) confident that I’d get in, and incorrectly treated it as my safety. As a result, I only applied to 3 or 4 “brass ring” schools, and didn’t do a full-court-press on those apps. I didn’t get in at any of those (unsurprisingly), so my options came down to plain vanilla UT or a gap year.
–
Weedout classes: Well, they were painful and pointless, but they didn’t weed me out. Wait, one of them DID. I took one class because I had some notion of adding a minor (possibly even a major) in the subject. Well, after a semester of suffering though a class when neither the students nor the instructor gave two hoots about the material, I won’t be pursuing that further. (That was one of the classes where I was the top student out of, I dunno, 400 or so. Glad the department showed some interest in retaining me. Not. They have their honors section to recruit potential majors.)
–
Finally, thanks for the suggestions. I particularly appreciate the sentiment behind them.
So there is absolutely nothing positive about UT to you? @AndyDufresne
@TheAvidSeeker I like the fast food selections all along the Drag. Verts, Chipotle, Whataburger, Potbelly, Taco Bell, Raising Cane’s, Torchy’s, In-n-Out Burger, Halal Bros., it’s all good.
But from where I’m standing, UT could have offered me a challenging, well-rounded education via Plan II. They decided I wasn’t worthy of that, and that I should instead let my intellect atrophy through time-wasting garbage.
I posted to hopefully prevent someone else from suffering that fate.
Are you maintaining an external locus of control or are you actively trying to engage yourself and find opportunities.
Perhaps in there lies your dissatisfaction. . . and pessimism.
You see not getting into Plan ii as the end of the world? @AndyDufresne
@AndyDufresne thank you for taking the time to post and give this level of detail. It answered so many questions I have as a parent. When I ask parents of current students who are non-Plan II (and non-LAH/non-BHP–students who were good students in HS and are quite smart (I know them and their parents) and are down at UT not in an honors program), I get very little detail and have been told there over 500 student organizations (so don’t worry, my DD will connect with others); I appreciate your candor and want more for daughter (who is overwhelmed w/ tons of APs and merit scholarship apps/interviews right now) than life in a giant dorm that has its own zip code or rushing/stressful Greek experience, not her thing at all. She is highly motivated academically and is accustomed to small classes led by teachers who truly care about academics and about students. She would be lost there and has been worried but was thinking she should just try to make it work. The other piece of this is the sense of NOT having been chosen (for Plan II). I have read on previous threads that the Plan II spots often go to people for whom UT is only a safety and then those students don’t come to UT anyway. It was NOT the case for daughter. She really wanted this. Her school is small and her scores, rank/grades and essays and recs were very strong, but her ECs and community service were weaker than peers in her class. Another student from same small school (slightly lower scores/grades, but she is in all the same clubs and activities, is active in more of them and has a lot more dedicated community service activities) applied to Plan II and was given a spot in Plan II last week – the only one (so far) from this small school to get Plan II. So it makes sense to me. But this student won’t be going, as she just got her first choice acceptance elsewhere w/ $$. Life is not always fair, but it’s an important lesson. Your post has really helped our family, so thank you for contributing to this thread.
@OakTree444 lol That’s kinda how the Plan II admissions played out at my HS. They offered slots to three of our top students - but none of them had any serious interest in UT or in Plan II, and all of them are instead attending top-tier privates. (Heck, one was a recruited athlete for an Ivy school! No idea why he wasted his time and theirs with a Plan II app.)
Glad I was able to help - even if that help is just warning you off from UT. I hope your daughter ends up with some good options for the fall.
@AndyDufresne Curious did you apply to LAH?
What do you think of that honors program compared to other honors programs at UT?
As a parent of a UT student, I can say I have met many many of my child’s friends who are NOT in an Honors Progam and are having great, rewarding, challenging experiences at UT and wouldn’t wish to go to school anyplace else. Though the experience of @andydufresne is real and we all benefit from hearing about it, I believe this experience could happen on any campus regardless of class size (yes, a student can feel lost and unattached in a class size of 20). Students have very unique college experiences even while at the same school. Regarding classes that are not challenging, I suppose this has a lot to do with a student’s major and whether a student placed out of the more remedial courses. Enrolling in classes can get tricky, as in any school, but I have not heard of a student not getting classes they need for their major (this is when advisors step in) I went to a small school and I now realize how many opportunities and experiences I missed out on that a large university offers. @andydufrese, thank you for sharing and I hope this semester proves rewarding both personally and academically - you deserve it!