<p>My D is considering four schools for undergrad and what we hoped would be an easy decision at this point doesn't seem to be. She is undecided with a major but is thinking she wants some variation of neuroscience/biology/psychology with a double major in music. We're having a hard time weighing the cost of schools in relation to the strength of their programs. </p>
<p>She is considering Emory, Case Western, University of Denver and Drake University. All are private, smaller universities and all say they encourage undergraduates to get research experience and will allow a double major with music. She anticipates going to graduate school and wants a program that will prepare her well for that. </p>
<p>Here's what we have so far:
Drake-- comfortable school, nice kids, 4 hours from home, in a city that is nice but less exciting than the others. In her field they are undergraduate only and make a point of saying that undergrads get all the focus. On the flip side, maybe this means less research going on without grad students around. (?) Their cost of attendance is the lowest of the four and they have offered a nice combo of academic and music scholarships. We could comfortably afford to send her there.</p>
<p>University of Denver--comfortable school also, though perhaps more outdoorsey kids rather than quirky nerdy ones (how she identifies herself), and in a great city. The cost of attendance is second lowest but much higher than Drake. They have offered reasonable academic and small music scholarships. We could scrimp and manage to send her there with some nail biting. They have offered only loans for financial aid.</p>
<p>Case Western--her favorite of the ones she has visited (she has not visited Emory yet)-- she likes the quirky students and thinks that going to a school known for the sciences will prepare her better for grad school. The cost of attending this school (without scholarship or aid) is half of our combined family income and her first year we will have two students in college. They have offered a modest academic scholarship, no music scholarship and $7500 in need-based grant. We anticipate that the grant will go away next year when our son is no longer in college. With the scholarship and grant, we could scrimp and send her there with some nail biting for the first year. After that, we would need to be creative and consider pulling some money from retirement investments (we are reluctant but could cautiously do that). She has a grandfather that might contribute some money (slightly uncomfy asking) and her dad is in line for a promotion this summer and if we put all of that money toward college, we could probably make it work.</p>
<p>We are waiting to hear on Emory music scholarship so don't have all the data yet there.</p>
<p>She is hugely excited about both Emory and Case but willing to attend any of these four. She understands that college will be what she makes of it. Emory and Case have better name recognition than the other two. I have a hard time knowing if the undergraduate experience there is significantly different than the other two in terms of preparing her for grad school. When we're talking about spending this much money, it's hard to know how much of a financial stretch we should make. Could some of you experienced folks respond with how you might weigh these different options?</p>
<p>I have heard good things about all four schools. Sounds like you have visited 3/4 which is good. I suspect “some variation of neuroscience/biology/psychology with a double major in music” could well hit a reality check since their won’t be much coursework overlap unless you have a lot of AP credits going in. Your mileage may vary.</p>
<p>It is rarely a good idea to tap retirement savings and I personally wouldn’t go in planning to do so. Secondly, a raise may well be offset by higher taxes, healthcare, inflation, etc. Is this the last child for college? Is graduate school a possibility for either child? Part of your discussion with your daughter might might be to weigh future employment prospects/salaries of potential majors against postgraduate debt load i.e. neuroscience might allow for more loan debt than music. I don’t know your family situation, but I’d check with the grandfather now rather than later. It’s also important to keep some contingency savings in case of the dreaded fifth year, job upheaval, mono, accidents, etc.</p>
<p>What makes you suggest that, Zobroward?
And thanks, MariettaDad. This is our second and last child. We don’t want to take out loans. And the music major is just for enjoyment and hopefully scholarship potential. Most of her free time is spent with music already. </p>
<p>I’m sure there are quirky kids in Colorado maybe more at Colorado College than University of Denver…but it is a get out and play outside kind of state. If you are narrowing choices that would be the one I would drop.</p>
<p>I would say you can’t afford Case, unless your cost of living is low enough that you really can live on half your income. Things like taking money out of retirement and approaching the grandfather are things you should reserve for a disaster-strikes kind of situation, IMHO, not part of the basic strategy for paying for college. I would never count on increased income. You never know what will happen: cutbacks, layoffs, illness, big unexpected expenses, you name it. On the other hand, in a year you would probably lose the small grant, but then again you would no longer be paying the college costs of your other child. Would that balance out the cost of Case? If so, then maybe you CAN afford it…but you say that you would still be required to resort to the emergency measures above. So no.</p>
<p>I have no opinion of Drake vs Denver as academic institutions, so if your D doesn’t think she would enjoy Denver and doesn’t want to go there is no reason to stretch to pay for it. Loans are not financial aid, IMHO. Sounds like Drake is your choice.</p>
<p>I say parent retirement trumps child college expenses. In the worst case scenario, your daughter can borrow for her college education, you cannot borrow for your retirement. So unless there is another source of college funds, sadly Case is off the table. </p>
<p>Are the loans at U of Denver student loans or parent loans? If they are student loans, then the choice (right now) would be between Drake and Denver. But Emory is the wildcard, isn’t it?</p>
<p>Des Moines vs Cleveland, vs Atlanta vs Denver is a pretty good variety. I’d have you and your daughter make and talk through a worksheet of pluses and minuses. Things to potentially discuss in no particular order 1) Net cost/future debt/budget; 2) academic programs/fit; 3) campus location/setting; 4) distance/ease-cost of travel from home; 5) campus visit impressions and “fit”; 6) how much she wants them/how much they seem to want her; 7) school/program reputation; 8) any scholarship requirements; 9) any special needs/accommodations; 10) campus life, housing options for 4 years; 11) local support, friends, or acquaintances (for homesickness or emergency support); 12) research or summer options; 13) 4 year graduation rate. </p>
<p>Denver is a nice school and the music program is really nice, but look into the other (bio) stuff and make sure it has what she wants. Denver is more known for theology, business, and international studies. I’m not saying DU doesn’t offer it, just not as well known for it. The school itself is fun and Colorado as a whole is more outdoor oriented than most schools. However, it is a short light rail ride to the art galleries, theaters, sports venues, shopping, etc. Easy to take a bus to Boulder if you want quirky. </p>
<p>I have friends who went to Drake and loved it.</p>
<p>I don’t think the ‘name’ of any of those 4 schools will be a golden ticket. Nice schools all, but don’t go into debt over them.</p>
<p>My middle son went to University of Denver. it might be a very good choice for her if the other schools put stress on your family financially. The music facilities at Lamont are unmatched–the views from the practice rooms are beautiful. The science facilities are impressive as well. </p>
<p>There are a lot of outdoorsy students, but outdoorsy does not rule out quirky or nerdy. Obviously fewer nerdy students than Case or Emory (disclaimer: my oldest son, definitely a nerd, went to Emory and loved it; and a very close friend’s daughters both went to Case, and loved it as well).</p>
<p>I think that University of Denver lacks in reputation, and would be a lot more popular, if it were not located in fly-over country. Outside of the eastern half of the US, it has a very good reputation. </p>
<p>Is your daughter pre-med? Like Case and Emory, there is good pre-med advising, and a lot of opportunity for the pre-med extracurriculars available nearby</p>
<p>You can borrow to finance college, but not retirement. Under no circumstances should you jeopardize your retirement by using the money to pay for college. Start with that and then pick a school.</p>
<p>If your daughter plans on pursuing a Ph.D. in any of the biological sciences (including neuroscience), then her graduate education shouldn’t be figured into the cost equation. Her graduate program should be fully funded. This means that she will receive a living stipend ($15-25K) in addition to having her academic fees covered by the university in exchange for working in her thesis lab and serving as a teaching assistant. She should also compete for various predoctoral fellowships that provide nice perks, such as funding for travel, research, computers, etc.</p>
<p>I’m not sure what the value of a “double major” is. If she is serious about music training, then perhaps she should look into schools which have a dual program with a nearby conservatory. On the other hand, if music is an avocational pursuit, perhaps she would be better served simply taking music classes as elective coursework. If music is important to her, she should make sure that her undergrad has the music theory/instruction classes that she wants and the facilities for practice. She could certainly do all of this and still major in a biological science of her choice. FWIW, neuroscience grad schools are perfectly OK with a student getting training in a different subfield of the biological sciences. It’s the academic rigor and quality of research training that is paramount. Getting her name on a publication or two would go a long way in the admission process.</p>
<p>Wherever she matriculates, your daughter should seek out and apply for summer research training in a lab (if she plans to apply to graduate programs in science). There are summer programs at numerous other colleges and NIH (Bethesda, MD). Continuity in research experience is desirable, so finding a research mentor on her undergrad campus, where she could continue to work on the project during the school year, would be the ideal situation.</p>
<p>Have you contacted Case’s financial aid office to explain your concerns (especially about the potential loss of the grant in subsequent years)? I’m wondering if there’s a chance that it could be replaced, at least partially, by federal student loans. I know that you want to avoid loans, but I think that $20 - $25K of total undergrad debt is a relatively manageable amount for most students (though I realize that personal situations and tolerance for debt vary widely). One thing I would definitely NOT do is utilize my retirement.savings. In addition, if my D is any indication, students often tend to change majors, so I wouldn’t choose a school based solely on the strength of any one field of study. I think if I was in your current situation, and nothing changed, I would probably opt for Drake and save Case and Emory for grad school (where name recognition is more important anyways).</p>
<p>P.S. I hope that Emory comes through with a huge music scholarship for your D and makes this thread moot!</p>
<p>I would consider borrowing from retirement savings only if you are relatively young, already have large & diversified retirement savings, are well-insured for disability and LTC, and do not plan to retire early. And your D is comfortable with the idea of being your caretaker should you outlive your retirement savings. I say this as someone who is dealing with a FIL with dementia and a MIL with cognitive impairment, both of whom are no longer able to live independently, neither of whom had adequately planned for this situation. After this experience, we have sworn we will never put our D into the position of having to support us in our old age.</p>
<p>second Lonestar. I’ve taken continuing ed classes from Emory prof in NS. I cannot speak to the other colleges, but I like Emory campus and all the kids I know who have gone there have enjoyed it too. </p>
<p>That said, I would never borrow from retirement account nor stretch too much to pay. I have been frugal all my life, but I wouldn’t want to be up at night unable to sleep, worrying about finances.</p>
<p>My D is at the end of the process of applying to music schools and our experience is that being a music major is going to be incredibly time and credit consuming - most schools have told us that either a double major isn’t possible or else D will need at least a fifth year to complete it. If your D is really only thinking of being a music major for the fun and “flavor” on grad school apps, then I strongly suggest you drop the double major idea and have her look into what music opportunities there are for non-majors at each school so that she can continue the music, but in a way that is low-stress and low-time commitment enough that it actually <em>is</em> fun rather than a burden.</p>
<p>I will also second all of the advice that says do NOT withdraw from your retirement and try to build up as little debt as possible. As was stated, graduate school in the biological sciences is usually fully funded (via tuition waver and stipend for living expenses), but when I graduated with my Ph.D. in molecular biology, my post-doc job at a major research university only paid $30 K a year - or slightly <em>less</em> than the research associate (i.e. lab tech) job I left to go off to grad school. I could only afford that because I was not carrying any college debt with me from my undergrad years.</p>
<p>A minor point, but in my experience Colorado is considered a desirable destination in the east, not as part of “flyover country.” Case, in contrast, is in flyover country. I have found that U Denver and Colorado College are well regarded here as attractive schools. (Denver often for kids who are middling students with lots of money, especially if they like to ski, frankly.) The same cannot be said for the other Rocky Mountain State schools.</p>
<p>Consolation, I think you might be thinking about the U of Colorado at Boulder, which is in a gorgeous setting that lends itself to skiing / outdoors activities (and attracts a lot of students who are indeed decent but not outstanding students and like to ski). U of Denver isn’t the same thing at all. </p>
<p>No, I’m thinking of U Denver, where several kids I know have gone. (I also know a kid who went to Mines.) U Colorado Boulder fits the profile also for the reasons you cite, but I don’t happen to know any kids who went there.</p>