<p>Roscoe, 87, what is the equivalent gpa on a 4.0 scale?</p>
<p>We plan on visiting U. Delaware with my daughter (1320 SAT, 720 Chem Subject, 95 GPA with a fair number of APs at well regarded suburban NJ public HS). My concern is freshman class size at a large univ. My other D just started at Muhlenberg and loves it. I know she would not feel the same if in lecture halls with 150+ students.</p>
<p>I would appreciate any insight into its Honors program, chance of entry with her stats, possibility of merit $, class size.</p>
<p>Thanks.
rablaw</p>
<p>
[quote]
Roscoe, my daughter was not in the top 10% of her class and she got into Michigan.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's all well and good. But, the fact remains that 89% of the students at UMich were in the top 10% of their high school class. And 98% were in the top quarter of their high school class.</p>
<p>Thus, it is reasonable to assume that the 11% who were not top 10%, and certainly the 2% who were not top 25%, probably brought something special to the party -- in-state, URM, recruited athlete, legacy, extraordinary ECs, uber-selective prep school, or whatever.</p>
<p>I know that when I ran the UMich admissions calculator for my daughter (northeastern public school, higher SATs, ranked 2nd in her class, outstanding EC), she was borderline auto-admit numerically at Michigan if you awarded her extra points for her EC. </p>
<p>BTW, the issue is not whether or not Michigan is better than Emory. The issue is that, IMO, the two schools are roughly comparable as far as admissions odds. However, statistically speaking (SATs, etc), Emory has a stronger student body. That reflects the out-of-state premium at Michigan from an admissions value standpoint. Generally speaking, a school with higher median SATs should be harder to get into. That is not the case once you factor the out-of-state premium at the top publics.</p>
<p>I'm not saying that the OP should or should not apply to Michigan. Just that I think it should be viewed as a long shot given the mid-pack class rank.</p>
<p>I'm not going to argue about which school has a stronger student body; although, I could argue either way.</p>
<p>For me, both Emory and Michigan, out-of-state, are overpriced. I would pay for Michigan over Emory, so for me, Michigan is the better value. </p>
<p>The stats about percentage of students that are in the top 10% of a class... I don't believe the numbers the schools put out. I don't know how the schools measure boarding school kids, kids from small private schools, athletes, artists, legacies, etc.</p>
<p>I'm trying to understand the importance of this admissions value computation as a parameter in the admissions decision. </p>
<p>My d is one of those oos kids at UNC-CH and yes, the out of state kids have pretty impressive stats. But I also know the best of the best of North Carolina kids are there as well. I believe one bit of info thrown out at parent orientation was the majority of the in-state kids were in the top 5% of their class, and many come from highly competitive private and public magnet schools. Most of NC college applicants actually end up at one of the other UNC campuses or NC State. That being said, my daughter chose to attend UNC-CH because of the many top ranked programs (Kenan Flagler, Journalism, Health Sciences) and because the school is well-respected by potential grad schools. And out of state tuition, fees, room and board is still less than $30,000 per year...materially less than Cornell or Duke.</p>
<p>I get that the argument being made is the statistics of the in-state kids somehow drag down the 'value' of UNC-CH. But I don't necessarily buy it, given that these in-state kids are no slouches and because there is also instrinsic value in their faculty, programs, facility and other attributes not easily measured.</p>
<p>Last year UMich was a crap shoot, so to speak. Kids that would have been accepted in years past, were not. My S's school sends enough to UMich that you could predict who would be accepted, that was not the case last year. The GC told me that there were 800 fewer accepted last year than the year before. What this year holds is anyone guess.</p>
<p>Schools that have a UMich feel but are easier to get in: Indiana (very good B-school), Ohio State (harder to get into, but looking for OOS students, good B-school), Kentucky.</p>
<p>I would apply to UMich, you never know. But I would look at Indiana. For someone who liked Wisconsin and Michigan, Indiana, seems a slam dunk (that's a pun! Ha!) Besides, it's easier to get a seat for a football game!</p>
<p>I would think that flying into Indy would be pretty easy, Columbus also should be accessible.</p>
<p>Two suggestions. One, your 3 hour flight requirement is a hinderance as it puts him too close to his NY competition. Let go of that. My sons fly 16+ hours. It's not a biggie.</p>
<p>Second, an 87 average for a boy in a tough curriculum might be better than you think. I don't know how the schools compute their averages, but I know lots of boys who got into tough schools with 87 and below. To improve his chances at his reaches, he should retake the SAT to try to get those scores over 1450. My boys did very well memorizing 200 SAT vocab words with flashcards. Boys are good at cramming IMO.</p>
<p>Retake the US History to try to get a score over 700 and take another SATII to get a score over 700. </p>
<p>What about UMiami and U Arizona?</p>
<p>This data is a little stale and the SAT scores are clearly higher today. But, here are the median SATs for out-of-state accepted students at a top public (UVa) in 1999:</p>
<p>Verbal:</p>
<p>White students:
25th percentile: 660
50th percentile: 710
75th percentile: 750</p>
<p>Asian students:
25th percentile: 660
50th percentile: 710
75th percentile: 750</p>
<p>Math:</p>
<p>White students:
25th percentile: 680
50th percentile: 720
75th percentile: 760</p>
<p>Asian students:
25th percentile: 710
50th percentile: 750
75th percentile: 790</p>
<p>Those are very high numbers, right up there with the most selective schools in the country. Especially when you figure that the overall SATs have increased signficantly with the glut of applications over the last seven years.</p>
<p>Using the ratio method 87/100 = [3.48]/4</p>
<p>I don't think it's the average that hurts him. It's the class rank. That's the stat that would stick out like a sore thumb.</p>
<p>although it doesn't meet the 3 hours plane ride home requirement -- have him take a look at the University of Colorado in Boulder. The school has excellent academics, lots of fun stuff to do (like hiking, skiing and more) and a great environment. He would love it!</p>
<p>Have him take the ACT. Michigan prefers it and a high score will only help his chances. </p>
<p>He needn't worry about getting a seat at a football game in the Big House. Students can get season tickets for a very low price. Ann Arbor is amazing!</p>
<p>I would forget OSU, Columbus is not a nice place. I don't like E. Lansing much either but that may be because we're Wolverines in our house. :D There is a lot of school spirit at MSU, probably a little too much as most consider it a party school.</p>
<p>You could take a look at LSU. They have a very good sports program and their football team is very highly regarded. Being from the NE may be an advantage for admissions there. U of Missouri Columbia has a good atmosphere also. Columbia is a decent college town.</p>
<p>Wait a minute -- This kid has an 87 unweighted. If he took honors and AP classes, this will probably translate to higher than a 4.0 for most colleges. Not to mention, if class rankings at his school are determined using unweighted GPA's, the fact that he is not in the top 10% means something different than if percentiles are determined with weighted scores. Ask the GC whether the student's stats make him competitive for Michigan, given his HS's applicant pool. Also, does the high school reveal the rankings on transcripts or in the GC's letters to colleges? If not, OP's son is in far better shape. My kid's school does not rank. Some of our kids who go to Michigan are bright and solid students, but come from below the top 20%. Because the school does not reveal this info in an explicit way, for the purposes of US News etc., their class rank goes unmentioned and unrecorded. But again, I think that if the OP had come on stating that her son's GPA was, say, 4.2 weighted, with a 2100 SAT, but below top 10% at a school where unhooked kids below the top 10% get into Michigan, the responses would have been at least a bit more optimistic. And although some of the schools on the list may be far reaches, I don't think that any of them have to be crossed off as totally unrealistic.</p>
<p>Regarding putting 87 on a 4.0 scale, the simple ratio method, yielding 3.48, is probably somewhere in the ballpark. I don't think there's a definitive answer. </p>
<p>The way I was taught to do it is that, since 2.0 can be treated as 65 and 4.0 can be treated as 95, the proper conversion is:</p>
<p>100-based average minus 65, times .0666, plus 2.0 [.0666 representing the 2.0 difference between 2.0 and 4.0 divided by the 30-point difference between 65 and 95],</p>
<p>which in this case equals 3.465.</p>
<p>Regarding weighting and ranking, he will have taken 8 APs and several Honors, which is a ton since in his HS you can only take APs in the junior and senior year. But he gets no adjustment for this since the school does no weighting of any kind.</p>
<p>The school does not officially rank but I believe the School Report sent to colleges reveals that top 10% would translate to 93 and midpoint in the class would be 87.</p>
<p>For what it's worth, the HS is in the top 30 of Newsweek's top 100 public HSs.</p>
<p>Finally, believe me, I recognize Michigan (and Cornell and UNC) as a huge reach. The issue, really, is whether applying there is a total waste of time for him, and the sense I'm getting from this very good input is that it's not.</p>
<p>Indiana seems like a good suggestion, btw. Can he consider that a safety, do you think?</p>
<p>Indiana is a safety with a personal essay optional. You can fill out the application in under 10 minutes. Then hand it over to the school counselor.</p>
<p>interesteddad is right about the reach definition for these OOS publics for a "non-diverse" candidate & without stellar grades, since these & other publics are so formula-driven, & the known good-quality publics are heavily impacted even for in-staters. (Recall the "reverse discimination" lawsuit recently by the UVA in-state non-admit with an excellent transcript, passed over -- supposedly -- for ethnic reasons.) But I also like what Marian said, & I see plenty of people with well-paying, prominent jobs who have gone to quality publics one rung down from the flagship & accessible to all. Penn State does come to mind; I know there are others. For example, I believe Penn State has some great poli sci program that some people believe is better preparation than UPenn. I always look at programs, possibly more than the U or college itself. I've encouraged my own daughters to do that. They did not & will not apply to any college whose course lists & descriptions do not align with their academic passions. There's no point. (Perhaps the OP & son have already considered that.)</p>
<p>Roscoe,
I know a female candidate with practically your son's profile. (3.4 UW, same scores as your S, extremely academically demanding school, same level of e.c.'s.) She did not get into any of her reaches (but did not apply to any OOS publics; also her AP/Honors list was small, unlike your S.) She is starting at St. John's Annapolis now.
Perhaps that is neither here nor there, as my own younger D has several super-reaches on her list. My attitude? Never undercut their dreams. It is always "worth the effort" if they have the interest & time & are emotioanlly prepared for the results & are fully informed. For my own, I'm suggesting a limitation on the # of super-reaches, due mainly to the need to work on perfecting match/target apps and researching truly acceptable safeties. (Sometimes it actually takes more work & time to come to terms with safeties that one is honestly willing to settle for.) I'm suggesting to my own that she limit those super-reaches to 2 -- and not necessarily to the 2 Ivies that she unbelievably has on her list -- with scores not predicted to come close to any 2100.:)</p>
<p>Roscoe, it's a very good list. As a resident of Illinois who knows a lot of kids who want to attend U of I, it will be very difficult to get into the business/management program OOS--that would be a reach. Indiana has a terrific business school (Kelly), and he's a virtual gimme not only to be admitted but to receive significant merit aid (my niece, who was a legacy, but had significantly lower tests curriculum strength, and ECs from a cream of the crop public, was offered $6000). If he's interested in wrestling (maybe not good enough to wrestle in college, but wants a top flight program at the school, as seems possible from the inclusion of Lehigh on his list), Iowa and Missouri-Columbia are additional big schools with pretty good business programs, Top 15 wrestling programs, and lots of school spirit.</p>
<p>Good luck.</p>
<p>It sounds as if the OP's son's class ranking system favors kids who take easier courses. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at this school, couldn't a child who got straigt A's without taking a single honors/AP course be valedictorian while the OP's son, who took 8 honors/AP's is in the middle! While OP's son may be under 3.5 unweighted, where is he weighted? You might take a look at how the UC's weight GPA's, taking honors/AP's into consideration, to get a somewhat more realistic sense of how colleges will look at his grades. At high schools that weight GPA's, taking the difficulty of classes into consideration, the kid with the A's in easier classes would be closer to the middle ranking-wise and the kid with some B's in AP's/honors would probably be a lot closer to the top. I hope that the letter OP's high school sends to colleges makes it clear how they calculate GPA's and class ranks.</p>
<p>Second Cheers suggestion of U of Arizona. About 30% OOS, good biz school and overall good value with potential for merit $ with your sons stats.</p>