<p>3togo~my comment wasn’t about OSS parents calling to report hazing, but in reference to the comment about parents calling and complaining about the time commitment of the pledges.</p>
<p>robotbldmom - Mowing the lawn is one example of forcing pledges to do what they may not like to do. I don’t think it’s a stretch to think that some young men might whine about having to mow, clean, and stay up late to their parents and then the parents call and complain and call it hazing. </p>
<p>Also, I agree that the Greek system isn’t being condemned by most of the posters. I also agree that hazing that puts a student’s well being at risk is wrong. </p>
<p>Here is an interesting article that was published in the Crimson White on October 9, 2012. I find it suspicious that a group of parents got together to write an anonymous letter to the university. It’s also interesting that nine days after it was published pledgeship was suspended. </p>
<p>[Anonymous</a> letter calls for overhaul of greek life | The Crimson White](<a href=“Documenting Justice (Video) - The Crimson White”>Documenting Justice (Video) - The Crimson White)</p>
<p>I don’t know the specifics of any of the complaints as the email was very vague and I can’t say that a single incident of hazing occurred, but I think there is a problem when dangerous situations exist whether it is hazing or simply poor choices made by students.</p>
<p>The Crimson White reported that 4 Greek members have been hospitalized so far this year for alcohol poisoning (that’s A LOT of alcohol and although they would have exihibited noticable symptoms, no one stepped in to ‘cut them off’ before it got to that point). Even pledges being served alcohol at parties since they are almost, if not all, under age, is illegal and a huge liability for the school. What if a single tragedy occurred involving one of those students. Here in the midwest I remember the student that was electrocuted for presumably taking a short cut through a high voltage area after a night of drinking, I have recently heard about people who have been hit by trains and fallen into rivers after consuming too much, I know just down the road from me there is a young female student who has been missing for over a year who’d been walking home after a night out drinking. It’s definitely not exclusive to Greek orgs, but the combination of immaturity and alcohol leads to problems more often than not.</p>
<p>I would like to think that the pledge process was not stopped because of ‘whining parents’ who didn’t want their sons forced to mow lawns, and believe that perhaps these parents are complaining because they are being ‘drunk dialed’ by their dear children in the middle of the night.</p>
<p>While that does not indicate any evidence of hazing, it still provides evidence of a potentially dangerous situation that the university has an obligation to investigate and attempt to improve.</p>
<p>Our second daughter was in a sorority at a flagship college in our home state. During her senior year a similar incident occurred. As an executive in Panhellenic she was asked to do an in depth study into Hazing.We had a very interesting conversation last night concerning the yesterdays events at Alabama. The university where she was a student actually took the definition to the extreme. Sororities couldn’t even tell pledges or members that they were “required” to attend certain events as that was considered “hazing”. I think the point is, that for some students who perhaps aren’t used to being away from home and the protectiveness of mom and dad they might find some of the things asked of them excessive when in fact they are not.
Robotbldmom…have you seen the specific list besides what has been shared publicly? I have heard “through the grapevine” a few of the allegations but not specifics and frankly I believe that is between the person who has reported the incident (I would hope that was the student and not his parents) and the fraternity involved.</p>
<p>^^^lovemykids:
That letter had absolutely zero bearing at all,” Hebson said. “That letter doesn’t mention any specific high-risk behavior that would make us say that we have to suspend pledgeship because of behavior issues.”</p>
<p>Seriously…let’s put the blame where it belongs…not on the parents?</p>
<p>jrcsmom wrote “I would like to think that the pledge process was not stopped because of ‘whining parents’ who didn’t want their son’s forced to mow lawns, and believe that perhaps these parents are complaining because they are being ‘drunk dialed’ by their dear children in the middle of the night.”</p>
<p>I suppose we can all fixate on the lawn mowing because it distracts us from the point that many parents complained about time constraints that are placed on their sons during pledgeship, and, the fact that we don’t have any specifics on what was involved in the hazing incidents. </p>
<p>As far as getting '“drunk-dialed” by their dear children in the middle of the night," that also happens to parents of college aged kids who are not Greek. </p>
<p>Clearly those who have no experience with Greek life are going to have a different perspective than those who do. I’m not sure why those who are not Greek care about this so much since joining a fraternity or sorority is a choice, as is dropping out of one if it turns out to be something that isn’t for you. </p>
<p>One of my dearest friend’s daughter attends a top 20 LAC that doesn’t have a Greek system. Her daughter complains every Sunday about the number of ambulances that are in front of her dorm on the weekends because of alcohol poisoning. Should the RAs be held responsible for not babysitting those kids? Over consumption of alcohol is a college problem, not a Greek problem. Unfortunately for Greek organizations they have a target on their backs. Why is that?</p>
<p>I feel that the target is held over them because they as a group are supposed to be held to a higher standard.</p>
<p>Greek organizations tout the leadership and ethics they attempt to instill in their students. So people from the outside might target them because greek students should know better and be more responsible since they are representing their organization when they are participating in activities organized by their group of peers.</p>
<p>I’m just speculating though.</p>
<p>I don’t think we are blaming the parents for the incidents. Hazing is wrong, end of story. Requirements to participate in a fraternity are another story. The fraternities that were found to have hazed should have been suspended.</p>
<p>I believe that parental pressure pushed the admin to cancel pledge during fall break after what parents saw/heard parents weekend. And I believe that parent pressure got pledge cancelled for the entire semester. IMHO an extreme reaction to events. I reserve the right to change my opinion if the facts change.</p>
<p>I believe that</p>
<p>Idinct, do you really think that UA would end fall pledge because of unsubstantiated claims that parents made? </p>
<p>I can see the parents weekend and fall break being influenced if enough parents complained. But that is influenced, I would think there were other considerations as well. </p>
<p>But do you really think that UA would cancel pledge for parent complaints? I don’t know what that would prove or accomplish. It might just feed into the parent intervention piece, and I prefer to believe that the admin is smarter than that. </p>
<p>The biggest concern I had with DS going to UA was the greek system, and whether or not he may want to participate. So I read back through a lot of CW articles and op ed’s. And asked about it on here, and read what I could in the CC archives. Truthfully, there has been a lot of complaining about hazing for YEARS. Including talking about the admin turning a blind eye to it. And that was from the students. </p>
<p>I am not saying that there is truth to everything I read. I know that editorials/blogs/newspapers can over state things. </p>
<p>But I am wondering if with the other things happening around the country at other colleges, the UA ER visits, and the history at UA (real or perceived), if the new pres felt the need to flex his muscles in a very public way to assure the students/parents/alums that they do not plan on allowing their students to be put at risk. </p>
<p>I would hope that admin at a school as large as UA, and as old as UA would be able to determine the appropriatness of parent complaints and deal with them accordingly. So no, I do not think that they cancelled pledge week because a student was made to mow a lawn, guard a fire alarm (unless it was in a way that endangered the student), or clean up after a party and parents complained about it. If those things were what caused people to be concerned about the pledges, then they would have called child protective services on me years ago. Well, except for the guarding the fire alarm thingy. </p>
<p>And I do not think that they cancelled pledge week for one single incident from one single fraternity. I do not think that would have proven anything either. </p>
<p>And, GASP, I am from the east coast. So stop knocking on us. We have some tough kids. And we are some tough people too.</p>
<p>One last comment and I’m done. My NE comment was uncalled for but the NY Times reference got me going. Plus not my first run in with parent complaints at UA.</p>
<p>I had serious doubts about S continuing with pledge, but my thoughts were to tell him to drop out and not send in the first check. Not to email the Fraternity, Administration & the NY Times. </p>
<p>Hopefully this will help to make the Greek system stronger(not more powerful) and continue to uphold the tradition.</p>
<p>I don’t think that parents had much, if anything, to do with the current investigations, but can see how they influenced the decision to suspend pledgeship over fall break, which has strong merits to be an official UA policy.</p>
<p>Similarly, I don’t think the influx of OOS students is causing the pledge process to change. In my experience, the students who are striving the most for changes at UA are those from Alabama or nearby states. Even then, ones state of birth and/or legal residence should have no bearing on the validity of their claims. </p>
<p>I don’t see the restrictions on pledge activities being onerous; many organizations gladly follow the same rules with no adverse effects. To me, it’s like complaining that the safety announcement on flights is too long without realizing that many of the lines were added as a result of real injuries or even deaths. You’d be surprised to know how many people never think to look behind them for an exit.</p>
<p>Team building need not sacrifice individuality in the process. One is the same person regardless of the color or type of shirt, if they’re wearing one at all. Referencing another thread, a diehard Tennessee fan is still a diehard Tennessee fan even if they decide to wear crimson because it’s more flattering on them than orange.</p>
<p>I agree that the drinking age being 21 causes a lot of issues and know and expect that a lot of college students drink underage. I know for a fact that some consider the availability of [usually very cheap] alcohol to be an additional benefit of fraternities and who consider dry rushes to be a negative of some fraternities. As for the coolers, that is just an interesting “tradition” with some fraternities at some schools.</p>
<p>Being 21+, I appreciate the ability to walk into a store and buy the alcohol of my choice as it allows me to try different brands and varieties and see which ones I like best. Getting drunk is not a requirement when drinking, despite popular culture often glamorizing excessive consumption, especially among college students. </p>
<p>One of my major mistakes in college was not considering social fraternities as more of a viable option. Knowing the often odd, eccentric 18 year-old I was back then, I don’t know if I would have chosen the right organization, especially since I don’t fit the mold of many of the fraternities (or sororities for that matter; at least one chapter of Delta Gamma has pledged men,) but who knows if I could have been a valued brother who is much the like my current self. My wish for all students, Greek or not, is that they have a life full of love and happiness and treat others with dignity and respect. UA is a family/community of scholars in which are all siblings no matter which Greek letters, if any, we wear.</p>
<p>*robotbldmom - Mowing the lawn is one example of forcing pledges to do what they may not like to do. I don’t think it’s a stretch to think that some young men might whine about having to mow, clean, and stay up late to their parents and then the parents call and complain and call it hazing. *</p>
<p>Still, such calls would not be given credence because it’s not hazing. If the definition of hazing is going to be stretched to include students not liking to do chores, then hazing would include absolutely everything.</p>
<p>I think the frats should have to submit a list of things that they will require of their pledges and a master list should be created of acceptable things, such as:</p>
<p>Mowing lawns
Painting rooms
cleaning the grout with old toothbrushes
trimming the yard landscaping
planting flowers
cleaning the baseboards
weeding the yard
cleaning the lawn furniture
etc
etc</p>
<p>And, no, I don’t think the ending of pledging was the result of parents complaining about lawn mowing or not seeing them at Parents Weekend. If there were concerns from those complaints then Bama would make some guidelines for next year about PW, etc. </p>
<p>And, the bottom line is that the police would not have a role about complaints about lawn mowing nor time spent during PW.</p>
<p>lovemykids: I am quoting you from one of your posts above: “I suppose we can all fixate on the lawn mowing because it distracts us from the point that many parents complained about time constraints that are placed on their sons during pledgeship, and, the fact that we don’t have any specifics on what was involved in the hazing incidents.”</p>
<p>Well, first off, we do know what the allegations are:
UA has been investigating the allegations based on calls received on the school’s confidential hazing hotline, which can be reached at 205-348-HALT (4258).</p>
<p>Hazing that resulted in the three interim suspensions of UA fraternities involved several pledges being asked to do “exercises,” known as “Bows and Toes.” Pledges are asked to rest the weight of their body on their elbows and their toes. Nelson said that they are sometimes asked to put their elbows on bottle tops or broken light bulb glass. THis quote is from the vice provost. You are right, I don’t know…but he does!</p>
<p>This is a far cry from “mowing the lawn”, which by the way was not first mentioned by me.</p>
<p>So here is a question: What would you do about the allegations if you were the university president?
a) ignore the allegations
b) blame the parents
c) be proactive and make sure that students’ safety is a priority.</p>
<p>If there are sororities and other organizations that manage to create bonds of loyalty without hazing, why can’t all the fraternities be held to the same standard? I do realize that there are some frats that do not condone or participate in hazing and I applaud those leaders and their members for this.</p>
<p>I see the logic in, and understand about stressful or difficult activites being a bonding experience, but to me much of the concern comes from having to trust a bunch of 19-20 or so year olds to determine how much is too much, or what is appropriate, especially in an environment ripe with ‘group think’.<br>
In trying out for a sports team of some sort, there is some assumption that the coach has had some training, perhaps even years of experience, and will take precautions to keep kids from harm, or would certainly lose their job. Also, in trying out for sports, many teams or schools require a physical, and any special health concerns are at least noted and on file, and, of course, none of the things done in training for sports are done in secret.
The atmosphere of secrecy combined with the history of hazing can create a sense of fear, making the pledge uncertain that they aren’t going to be harmed. I don’t know of any way for someone to know that the organization they are joining is one that doesn’t allow hazing. I wouldn’t expect an organization that hazes to be honest about it up front. The general reputation of these organizations as places where hazing occurs negatively affects all of the organizations by association. It’s a shame that the culture of hazing remains. I think many of us would love for our kids to be a part of a group that would provide support and perhaps lifelong friends, but because of this reputation many would be hesitant to recommend it (let alone volunteer to help pay for it) and many students may be hesitant to join. I suspect this plays a role in students narrowing college search parameters to schools that don’t have a large Greek population.</p>
<p>Lovemykids2 wrote: “Clearly those who have no experience with Greek life are going to have a different perspective than those who do. I’m not sure why those who are not Greek care about this so much since joining a fraternity or sorority is a choice…”</p>
<p>It’s simple. My children and my family are a part of the UA community. None of my children have an interest in the Greek community, but I support those who do. I also don’t have a child on the football team, the gymnastics team, or in the MDB although I support those organizations. I would be equally concerned if they faced allegations of hazing that were being investigated by Judicial Affairs and/or the UAPD as this reflects poorly on the UA and is clearly not a result of parents complaining about time commitments or mowing the lawn. I support the UA and Dr. Witt and hope that justice prevails regardless of the outcome. Now is the time to prevent a tragic outcome similar to FAMU.</p>
<p>^^^bamagirls…Well said…</p>
<p>I truly feel sorry for the young men whose pledgeship was cut short…I hope that the bonding still occurred.</p>
<p>I’m sorry to make light of this serious situation, but seriously? Do you think a bit more time resting their elbows and toes on bottle caps and broken glass while being kicked in the ribs would help them “bond” better? </p>
<p>Nothing like a bit of public humiliation and abuse to build lifetime friendships. Quite honestly this is absurd and should not be condoned in any way.</p>
<p>Before this turns into Lawn Mower Gate let the record show that my previous comment - As I said before, Hazing is wrong and I don’t know of any school or fraternity that doesn’t forbid it. The problem is that some fraternities are not monitored as they should be by their national chapter and the local Greek Affairs office and too many people think that cleaning a chapter house, mowing the lawn, or being out late on a school night is a form of hazing, which it is not. Unfortunately, the young men who didn’t get to finish their pledgeship are being punished because of a combination of the two. it does NOT state that I believe that UA officials cancelled pledgeship because parents complained about their sons having to mow the lawn. It was meant to convey that the possible lack of monitoring by those in charge, in combination with the anonymous phone calls and the email written by parents of freshman students sent to the Crimson White, and, a significant number of individual complaints to the university, some because of serious problems (alcohol and physical abuse) and others trivial (too much time spent on pledgeship, push-ups, chores), caused an overzealous response. </p>
<p>I know for a fact that parents have complained about their sons spending too much time at the house and having to do chores, such as mowing the law. Its ridiculous that some on this thread have cherry picked the lawn mowing part of my comments. That one chore was used as an EXAMPLE people! I do think that the increase in parental complaints about serious and trivial issues combined with the letter sent to the CW threatening to take this to the NYT and other media outlets brought about the suspension of pledgeship. </p>
<p>The fraternities that forced their pledges to do exercises on bottle caps and/or broken glass should have their charters revoked. That type of behavior is inexcusable and does nothing but break down trust; it does not form positive relationships. The fraternities that followed the moral codes of their organizations should not be punished along with the few who didnt. Its sad that anonymous phone calls and an anonymous letter that threatened to bring down the UA Greek system and the university itself had so much power. Honestly, that letter could have been written by anyone.</p>
<p>In summary, I do not condone hazing that is harmful to the body or spirit, I do not and have never stated that mowing the lawn was the cause of the suspension, I do support the chapters that are innocent but are being treated like theyre guilty, and I wish the young men who are being initiated this weekend the best.</p>
<p>A train full of fraternities was on its way to a great destination. A few miscreants forced their way into the locomotive, bound and gagged the engineer, then opened up the throttle full bore, sending the train on a dangerous out-of-control “joy ride.” The conductor, fearing he had a runaway train on his hands, pulled the emergency brake and stopped the train.</p>
<p>Most of the perps were apprehended (some may be still at large) and the remaining passengers will ultimately reach their destination via the road less travelled. They’ve been inconvenienced, they’re angry, and they’re frustrated, but, thankfully, they’re none the worse for the wear.</p>
<p>Kudos to Conductor Bailey. He was caught between a rock and a hard place. As my son, a fraternity member, said, “We just have to keep our perspective and move on.”</p>
<p>Again, I wil try to be clear…hazing is illegal, and yes their charters should be revoked if these allegations are true. The parent anonymous letter had nothing to do with the response. Parents may have complained about time constraints and that should be addressed by educating the parents and future pledges beforehand. These are two separate issues., one issue may be annoying to the parents, the other issue is a matter of paramount concern.</p>
<p>I know that not one of us here would possibly condone hazing, but we can not ignore this situation. If anyone feels that the reaction was too harsh, there are ways to voice your opinion to the administrators.</p>
<p>Some info for those interested:
[StopHazing.org</a> – “Educating to Eliminate Hazing”](<a href=“http://www.stophazing.org/laws/al_law.htm]StopHazing.org”>http://www.stophazing.org/laws/al_law.htm)</p>