<p>I am an alum of one of those Big 10 schools and I know the only time in my life that I have over-consumed by A LOT was sitting in a dorm room of our ‘dry’ campus. </p>
<p>But I’m not certain it was a knee-jerk reaction in today’s particulary litigious society. The Crimson White reports that several students have already been hospitalized this school year of alcohol poisoning and although not unique to UA or to the Greek system, I’m certain the administration is hearing questions from parents like, “How did <em>you</em> allow this to happen?”, “Who is responsible (because it couldn’t possibly be my child’s fault)?”, “Why weren’t your rules being enforced?” and an implied “Why was there no one babysitting my child who is now a legal adult?” They have to act in whatever manner they deem necessary to protect their interests. How many of those parents are currently contemplating hiring attorneys to hold responsibile the Greek houses or the university for allowing their children to be put at risk?</p>
<p>It almost makes me wish they’d lower the drinkiing age by a few years so kids could get some of the experimentation out of their systems before transitioning to a new environment with new freedoms…</p>
<p>First off, I abhor hazing. Listening to people attempt to defend it hurts my soul a little bit. There is literally no reason that you have to “teach” individuals in this manner, because that is not how we learn in a classroom or at a business or at church and so on. Individuals who pledge a fraternity sign up for an experience, not for hazing, or anything else. And anyone who goes through hazing and then perpetuates it himself is guilty tenfold.</p>
<p>Second, I am very optimistic about the changes this will make at UA. It is my hope that national organizations and local alumni groups wake up to the issues here and make appropriate alterations. It is significantly more difficult to plan a meaningful development program (trust me, I know about that one) than to beat the living snot out of your newest, vulnerable members. And yet in many fraternities, those pledges turn around and resent their actives, and the potential from that human capital is simply wasted.</p>
<p>I love being a SigEp and I am proud that we do not have a pledge model program here at Bama and that we treat our new members with love and respect. I try to explain to our new members that our chapter functions as an upside-down pyramid, with the Executive Board supporting the older members in planning events, the older members supporting the new members with mentoring, designated driving, and other things, and the new members trying to work their way down the pyramid by taking on responsibility and gaining respect not because of age but because of what they accomplish inside and outside our chapter. SEA_Tide mentioned ropes courses that we do, and we have other (positive) brotherhood activities we try to include frequently to explain how Virtue, Diligence, and Brotherly Love work in progress.</p>
<p>That means no dress code, equal rights and responsibilities, and a good time for all, and the moment any member steps out of line they get sent to our Standards Board, not hazed. It’s absolutely amazing what you can accomplish when you hold yourself to a higher standard. I hope the Greek system stops flaunting their values and starts acting them.</p>
<p>jrcsmom - DH and I attended the number one party school in the Big 10 back in our day and I can count on two fingers the number of times I over-consumed. The drinking age was 18 back then so pre-gaming didn’t exist. We went to DHs fraternity or to the bars and drank cheap beer because it was all we could afford. Neither one of us recall hearing about our peers going to the hospital because of alcohol poisoning. I’m sure it happened but I don’t believe to the extent that it does today. Like you, I think that drinking age should be lowered.</p>
<p>In regards to alleged hazing incidents it’s hard to imagine that this year is worse than previous years. Perhaps it’s a liability issue and in that case I’d agree that the university needs to protect itself. My problem with the situation is that three out of 27(?) fraternities have been sanctioned, one is under investigation, and six of seven others who were investigated were cleared. What where the claims against the houses? My son called me after Family Weekend and asked if I had complained to his fraternities national headquarters because he didn’t get to spend enough time with me. I was shocked to learn that some of the parents of his pledge brothers had done something like that. They clearly didn’t understand the pledge process. I told my son that I was actually impressed that we were able to spend the amount of time that we did with him because of pledgeship. </p>
<p>My stance on this situation is this. If dangerous hazing took place then those houses should be punished. The university should submit a list of what is not acceptable during pledgeship, maybe they have, I don’t know. If the rules are broken then there should be serious consequences. At this point I don’t believe that suspending pledgeship for all of the houses was necessary. If I find out that I am wrong then I’ll have no problem admitting it.</p>
<p>pretzeldude - No one is defending hazing. Like I wrote in the above, my husband told my son to walk away from any house that would ask him to submit to hazing activities. </p>
<p>I’m happy to learn that the SigEp house holds there pledges in such high regard. That’s how it’s supposed to be. Unfortunately, that isn’t how it is in some houses and it varies by campus. My husband’s fraternity (one of the largest nationally) has had some major problems in the last ten years on certain campuses. They just revoked the charters of two in the past year. It hurts my husband’s and his brother’s souls to see the youngsters doing things that go against the fraternities standards. The good news is that when national heard about the problems they worked with the universities and did what was best for the school, it didn’t trickle down to innocent houses. </p>
<p>I don’t know what the big deal is about the dress code. You and SEA_tide seem to have a problem with it. Personally I loved seeing the fraternity men dressed in pressed khakis, polo shirts or oxford shirts, and navy blazers on game day. I would have loved it if my DH had dressed that well in college ;)</p>
<p>so…I have sat on my hands for the past two days. I know can’t do it any longer. As many of you know I am actively involved in helping young women go through the recruitment process at UA. My DD is VP of her sorority and Property manager. Her sorority is one of the ones building a new house. She has been actively involved in the process since she was allowed to turn the first shovel full of dirt over. This experience is invaluable and will be a stand out on her resume.<br>
Sorority pledgeship starts the day the young women open their bids in the football stadium and ends with initiation. Initiation is determined by each of their National GLO’s and happen during a variety of weekends (usually an away game weekend) in the Fall with one house not initiating until January. During the time they are pledges the young women attend New Member meetings once a week (usually on Mondays) where they learn the history, traditions and rituals of their sorority. These meetings also help to bond the pledge class. Bonding is very important as one day these girls will be the leaders of their respective houses. If this bonding doesn’t occur then it can affect recruitment and viability of that particular house. In addition the new members are also required to attend Panhellenic Speakers. These speakers offer a variety of important information about making good choices as well as careers and personal development. During DD’s freshmen year Beth Holloway spoke. DD said she will remember her words for a very long time.
Although the process of Fraternity and sorority pledgeship is different, the purpose is the same…to bond and unite this particular group of individuals so that they will step up into leadership roles and keep the GLO viable and successful. It isn’t meant to be easy. I do not agree with hazing, mental or physical harm to an individual in way shape or manner. But I do think that individuals that join a GLO whether it be a fraternity or a sorority need to understand that this is a personal investment…not just 4 years of a social life. I think that’s hard for young people. They see Greek Life as an avenue to a ready made group of friends…and it is but it is so much more. In addition sometime parents don’t understand this concept as well.
So when it comes to pledge gear…dressing the same, the point is that this group of young men are pledged to be brothers…no one better than the other but a cohesive group (think of it like when our children wear uniforms to school). Different fraternities have different pledge gear because it shows that they are joined as one group…like when different schools have different uniforms.
The same goes for the “expectations” of the pledges. Different fraternities have different expectations. Many of those expectations are outlined in manual that come from their National GLOs and have evolved through years of history and tradition. How those expectations are taught is interpreted but the leadership within the fraternity and sometimes alums also help. It’s sometimes in these interpretations that things can become a little hazy (oh my… pardon the pun).<br>
My point is that parents who call and complain because they didn’t get to spend enough time on Parents Weekend with DS don’t understand the process and in fact if they are complaining they are making it much more difficult on their son. Please be informed parents, ask questions…understand that you and your son are not being punished by the process.
When DD’s boyfriend was a pledge I lived the process through phone calls with DD, her sweet boy and his family. Sleepless nights, having to be at the house at odd hours, cleaning, yard work, driving actives around, wall sits, guarding the fire alarm, being a DD, supplying food at games ect were all part of the process. He knew that , we knew that and through many different conversations with his parents, they understood as well. It was a process…he knew there was going to be an end and he persevered. He chose to do this. He understood and wanted this brotherhood.
After he was initiated he went for a job interview. The man who interviewed him was an alum of his fraternity. When he was here last weekend for the Mizzou game two Alabama fans stopped by our tailgate. One was an alum of his fraternity…there were secret handshakes and then the exchanging of information and I just found out today that the alum maybe securing DD’s boyfriend an internship this summer…all because they were fraternity brothers…connections.
I would agree with the statement that perhaps the administration has had a knee jerk reaction to all of this. When Gentry left last year it was made known through the Greek Life Office that there would be changes for both fraternities and sororities. We have seen those changes take place in several areas and I think that there is a message being sent here. Just as ABC sat out side fraternities and cracked down on underage drinking for a while last Fall I think that you will see fraternities comply and hopefully by Spring the situation will be re-evaluated.
What I would suggest to any incoming students and their parents is to do some research on Greek Life, what to expect and how the process works. There are many of us who post here frequently that have ties to the GLOs at Alabama. I speak not for myself but I am sure for others that we would be very happy to chat with anyone about the process of pledgeship and if we can’t answer your questions that we are more than willing to help you find the answers you are looking for.
One final thing on drinking. It happens…it happens at colleges across the US. Both my husband and I were Greek at our respective universities and yes…we drank…sometimes too much and irresponsibly. Underage drinking occurred then and it occurs now. With our 4 children we have always adopted the policy of honesty and I am pleased to say minus a few small blips it has worked well. We shared out respective college drinking experiences with our children, sighting them as learning experiences.
When DD announced that she was going to Alabama and would be going through recruitment we knew she would drink. She wasn’t a huge party girl in high school but she went to few now and then. The parents in our community all banded together and if you had kids at your house and you suspected alcohol you simply took the car keys, locked them in the freezer…no one left, phone calls to parents were made and the kids spent the night.
So…before she went to school we practiced. I knew from past experience with the other 3 that if she knew what to expect when she drank, her limits and how alcohol affected her then our chances of having a negative experience were going to be less…plus I would be there to help her is she needed help. We are 4 for 4 on this method…and my daughter thanked me for this. Did she drink at fraternity parties when she was a pledge…yes…but for the most part she was in control and understood the consequences. I think she was prepared.
This is a tough situation all the way around. I applaud UA for keeping on top of the situation, I am sad that pledgeship was suspended and that the bonding process was incomplete. I hope that parents will understand that just because these young men will be initiated, that the process of initiation itself has components that they might take issue with. The process is a rite of passage.
I know many of us are anxious to see where this leads.</p>
<p>So, all the fraternities that were listed as having a hazing problem were cleared except one? And they decide to suspend pledge activities after clearing all of the fraternities except one? This doesn’t make sense and does a disservice to all other pledges. Maybe I’m missing something here. If so, please clarify this for me.</p>
<p>UA2009, 2 fraternities were given sanctions and referred to judicial affairs, 2 different ones are also being investigated by their local chapters with cease and desist letters issues, and another is undergoing university investigation. So it is more than one fraternity. At least according to the press release.</p>
<p>Those are just the ones that were caught. </p>
<p>And they are not suspeming all fraternity activities, just additional pledge activities. They are still allowing their induction ceremonies and rituals with sponsor attendance. </p>
<p>This may seem to be over kill to some. And maybe it is. But it definitely sends a strong message and will hopefully alter future behaviors.</p>
<p>Hazing is illegal, demoralizing and oftentimes dangerous. So would you want your student attending a university that condones that behavior, or do you want your student attending a university that takes a hardline stance against hazing? In my opinion the answer is clear. </p>
<p>The UA is taking a strong stance against hazing and bad practices in the fraternities. I support their position, apparently so does Dr. Witt.</p>
<p>The following is a quote from The Tuscaloosa News yesterday:
Witt, now the UA System chancellor, said he fully supports the action the University of Alabama has taken in suspending the pledge program. This is necessary in order to fully investigate the allegations that have come in this week.</p>
<p>Let me say I don’t condone hazing. Just wanted to get that out there.</p>
<p>I wonder if the amount of OOS students particularly from the north is having an affect on this. I can say this as we are both. If you told many of the parents from S’s school that their S had to clean something or couldn’t spend quality time when they came down for parents weekend they wouldn’t stand for it.</p>
<p>It would take something pretty serious for me to intervene at college. This isn’t high school anymore. The fraternities are getting parent calls regularly now on a wide range of issues. It is supposed to be a fraternity of men, well at least brothers.</p>
<p>I think many parents are widely misinformed about pledging. I know I was. I was disappointed about parents weekend, but never considered calling the fraternity or Administration.</p>
<p>I shouldn’t have generalized, but anyway it is too bad that the rest of the fraternities were penalized. Hopefully they can get some stricter guidelines in place so they can go forward. Maybe they could start a week early like the sororities do, that would give them some more time to bond and offer bids.</p>
<p>I was very unsure of the process last year. Casino had to talk me off the ledge at least once, but I trusted in my son and agreed to let him honor the commitment he made.
I think S has gained maturity from his participation.</p>
<p>There are already strict guidelines as it is. There are more rules applied every year too. There are so many rules that it is hard to have time with the pledges and getting to know them. A lot of these guys have class all day and the only time you see them is at dinner and then they can’t be at the house after a certain time which I believe is 7 or 8 in the evening. I’m all for punishing those that hit and abuse pledges, but at the same time it is hard to plan activities for the pledge class so they can gel together without having someone raid the house and write you up for breaking the rules.</p>
<p>Idinct…I think you hit on something concerning OOS students and the perhaps misunderstanding of the fraternity process. Again I too will say I don’t condone hazing and I agree with you…theses young men are in college now and I believe it’s time for these young men to be just that men. Does that mean that they should put up with behavior that is against their beliefs…no but they should be men enough to say “this isn’t for me and walk away” or orchestrate the change from within the organization
The Crimson White is known for “stirring the pot”…they have been doing it for years…that’s print media. I am not saying that some instances of hazing did not occur but I think that in reality it was not more or less than in previous years and this year it got the focus (just like last year they started with the alcohol, block seating and then moved onto The Machine).<br>
I truly feel sorry for the young men whose pledgeship was cut short…I hope that the bonding still occurred and that these particular pledge classes will strong.
Having spoken with several young me we know in several Old Row and New Row fraternities I would echo what Idinct said…they have received and extraordinary amount of parent calls this year. Perhaps IFC need to address this at their Recruitment Weekend in March. Some sort of parent education on this process and the purpose of pledge gear ect could be addressed.</p>
<p>Idinct and ahpimommy~ I bet the cost of travel and lodging for the OOS parents that attended Parents Weekend contributed to the complaints to the Frats. If the parents weren’t made aware by their sons that their time to visit would be limited, they were probably mad to have spent the money and then not see much of their son. Think of how excited so many on this board were at the prospect of seeing their student. This probably wasn’t as much of an issue when the OOS numbers were lower. Most of us that are in state can drive over/down for the day.</p>
<p>I don’t know why their time is limited (what the commitments are that keep them busy on that weekend), but would it be possible for the Frats to have an exception for that weekend? Would it hurt the “process”? Just a thought for the future, especially with the growth in OOS students. </p>
<p>Thank you also for clarifying the whole sorority/fraternity bidding and pledging process.</p>
<p>I don’t care if it was “more” hazing that occurred this year than in previous years that brought this to the forefront. There should be NO hazing. If you don’t condone hazing than you don’t, you can’t condone a “little” hazing.</p>
<p>I am not saying that anyone on this thread is condoning it but hazing can’t be justified in terms of quantity. If in previous years, hazing was allowed to happen that is a disgrace, but UA needs to go forward from here.</p>
<p>Bamamomof3…great point and I am sure that was part of the problem. The first year DD was at Alabama we went to Parents Weekend. She had an event on the Friday night we arrived…she had a date to the game. We had breakfast together, met her at her sorority for Game Day meal, walked around the Quad and visited a few tailgates but then she went into the game with her date (now her boyfriend of two years…he had to go in early as fraternity pledges are expected to save seats for all of the active members and their dates…that’s part of the Game Day process). We too were disappointed. I totally understand and I think a little communication and education about “the process and expectations” is a good thing. If we know what’s coming then we aren’t as shocked and surprised. We have been lucky in that DD has always been great at communicating and so even though we knew we would have limited time with her some time was better than no time at all.
I will tell y’all again if you are OOS GO TO PREVIEW WEEKEND!!! Both sorority and fraternity. I know that for many OOS dads…they were shocked to find that most of the bids had been given out before school had begun and that Formal Recruitment wasn’t really that (I think they were thinking it might be like the girls) but rather several fraternities had a few bids left to give. Lesson…if you are interested in Greek Life at Alabama…do your homework, ask questions, get informed. The Greek Life will be more than happy to answer all questions…they are very nice and as I said before if you want to ask here one of us will answer.</p>
As someone wary about my kids joining a frat this really rubbed me the wrong way. It reads like … the new pledges should tough it out because the older brothers did and it works this way because this is the way it has always worked. </p>
<p>Could the increase of OOS families have caused more calls … is it because they are wimps or because they won’t tolerate what should not be tolerated even if it has been going on forever. Finally, Alabama has a long a rich Greek tradition and the admission of the school came down hard on the frats … I have a hard time believing that overly sensitive OOS parents are the cause … it sure seems like the behavior of the frats is the cause.</p>
<p>ahpimommy - as usual, we are on the same page. Thank you for confirming what I wrote earlier today. </p>
<p>ldinct - It’s possible that the number of OOS parents contributed to this but in all honesty I don’t think that UA’s process is that different from other schools. They recruit earlier but the process is very much the same. Maybe the problem is with helicopter parenting and feeling the need to intervene about every little thing that junior is having a problem with. Hazing, physical or emotional abusive hazing, is when a parent should step in and help if their adult child asks for it, but anything other than that should be left up to said adult child. </p>
<p>In regards to Family Weekend and not seeing your kids, when my DD was a freshman she was not Greek and we didn’t get to spend much time with her. She went to a tailgate party with her brother, boyfriend, and friends and we saw her for dinner after the game. We took her shopping the next day and that was it. We saw our son for about the same amount of time even though he was going through pledgeship. Like I wrote above, my DH and I were thankful that his fraternity gave him a little bit of a break so that we could have dinner on Friday and Saturday evening. </p>
<p>As I said before, Hazing is wrong and I don’t know of any school or fraternity that doesn’t forbid it. The problem is that some fraternities are not monitored as they should be by their national chapter and the local Greek Affairs office and too many people think that cleaning a chapter house, mowing the lawn, or being out late on a school night is a form of hazing, which it is not. Unfortunately, the young men who didn’t get to finish their pledgeship are being punished because of a combination of the two.</p>
<p>^^^do you really think that anyone is confusing " mowing the lawn" with hazing? These reports which came into the hotline were about specific incidents and were from pledges. I don’t think that anyone here is condemning the fraternities as a whole -just the hazing.</p>