<p>I'm pretty sure JHU has more than biological sciences/medicine! Doesn't it have a pretty good Writing Sems, IR, economics, etc? </p>
<p>Also I've heard from the students who are actually there, that they really like the Engineering school....</p>
<p>I would say academically, JHU and Berkeley offer a similar quality education with respect to faculty quality etc.. But here is the main difference:</p>
<p>Freshman Class @ Berkeley: 6,100
Freshman Class @ Hopkins: 1,200</p>
<p>Meaning the ENTIRE undergraduate student population @ JHU (4yrs) is still smaller than just the incoming class @ Cal (1 yr).</p>
<p>In terms of academic excellence across all fields, Berkeley is in a league of its own.</p>
<p>Number of rated programs:
Berkeley-36
Johns Hopkins-33
Virginia-32
Maryland-28
(no info on Virginia Tech and Carnegie Mellon)</p>
<p>Rank based on average of nonzero scores:
2-Berkeley
20-Johns Hopkins
22-Carnegie Mellon
28-Virginia
44-Maryland</p>
<p>Rank based on average of all 41 scores:
2-Berkeley
18-Johns Hopkins
25-Virginia
40-Maryland</p>
<p>Percent of T10 programs among those rated:
Berkeley-35/36 (97%)
Johns Hopkins-9/33 (27%)
Virginia-4/32 (13%)
Maryland-1/28 (4%)</p>
<p>Percent of T20 programs among those rated:
Berkeley-36/36 (100%)
Johns Hopkins-17/33 (52%)
Virginia-11/32 (34%)
Maryland-8/28 (29%) (all in math, science, or engineering fields + economics)</p>
<p>Source: NRC</a> Rankings</p>
<p>Edit: cross-posted with Techie1988--seems like we were saying the same thing. ;)</p>
<p>For quality of graduate programs (not just the "faculty productivity"), JHU can't hold its own against Berkeley. Let's just look at some more credible rankings--the oft-touted NRC rankings (you saw it coming, I know it):</p>
<h1>programs in the top 10:</h1>
<p>Berkeley: 35
JHU: 9</p>
<h1>of programs ranked #1:</h1>
<p>Berkeley: 10
JHU: 0 (though you might argue that it's #1 for BME)</p>
<p>NRC</a> Rankings in Each of 41 Areas</p>
<p>Rank in arts/humanities:
Berkeley: #1
JHU: #13</p>
<p>Rank in biological sciences:
Berkeley: #5
JHU: #15</p>
<p>Rank for engineering:
Berkeley: #2
JHU: #25</p>
<p>Physical sciences/math:
Berkeley: #1
JHU: #20</p>
<p>Social/behavioral:
Berkeley: #1
JHU: #23</p>
<p>NRC</a> Rankings</p>
<p>The new NRC rankings are out soon (September), but you get the general idea. The THES rankings in similar areas reflect this (Berkeley's typically ranked #2, only behind Harvard, in the areas listed above). The same can be found in other rankings like the Gourman Report.</p>
<p>JHU is great, and for undergraduate, I'd say they're peers; for overall school strength, I'd say they're peers. But at the graduate level (especially in departmental breakdowns), Berkeley blows JHU out of the water.</p>
<p>To answer the OP:</p>
<p>For prestige + quality programs in all fields:</p>
<p>Berkeley: 10 (the only other school that can touch that is Stanford; Harvard is weak in engineering, which brings it down to #3)</p>
<p>JHU: 7-8</p>
<p>CMU: 6-7</p>
<p>UVA: 5</p>
<p>UMD & Virginia Tech: sub-5</p>
<p>This isn't to say that any of these schools are "inferior" to one another on the whole; I'd consider many of them peers. However, for prestige (IMO) and quality in all fields, that's what I think.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Freshman Class @ Berkeley: 6,100
Freshman Class @ Hopkins: 1,200
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't know where you got your numbers, but Berkeley's largest freshman class was this year, peaking at about 4,400.</p>
<p>Yes, refer an 11 year old data. (Dude, are you saying the NRC is more credible than The Chronicle of Higher Education?? Chronicle is the most respected source of news, data, and information in higher education. "Its the No. 1 source of news, information, and jobs for college and university faculty members and administrators.")</p>
<p>Techie1988 and kyledavid80, Can you provide some updated data?</p>
<p>UC Berkeley has its own page for 2007</p>
<p>JHU 2007 - Chronicle</a> Facts & Figures: Faculty Scholarly Productivity Index
JHU 2006 - Chronicle</a> Facts & Figures: Faculty Scholarly Productivity Index</p>
<p>UC Berkeley 2007 - Chronicle</a> Facts & Figures: Faculty Scholarly Productivity Index
UC Berkeley 2006 - Chronicle</a> Facts & Figures: Faculty Scholarly Productivity Index</p>
<p>Hopkins has respectable graduate level programs that can hold its own and can stand on its own two feet against UC Berkeley. UC Berkeley has without the doubt very strong graduate level program, definitely the best in the world I'd say. , no it does not "blow" JHU out of the waters.There is a wide difference between the educational graduate level quality given at UC Berkeley and JHU than say over CMU, UVA, UMCP, etc...</p>
<p>I'd rather see cross comparisons with schools from the same sources that was not published when I was in 2nd grade. Its not even new data. And is definitely not as respected as Chronicle of Higher Education. Chronicle is the like the holy grail of news and information about colleges today. Its all subscription based, the quality of their articles are simply fantastic.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Yup, clear discrepancy. Hopkins is definitely a lot smaller. You can tend to find a lot more classes that are smaller (10:1 vs. 15:1 student/faculty ratio), probably more individual attention.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Yes, refer an 11 year old data.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>When that data changes very little and is heavily supported with more recent rankings... yeah. Notice how US News, Gourman, THES, and more all support the NRC rankings. Funny how that works. ;)</p>
<p>
[quote]
Dude, are you saying the NRC is more credible than The Chronicle of Higher Education?? Chronicle is the most respected source of news, data, and information in higher education.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's what we in the know call an appeal to authority. That's a fallacy.</p>
<p>I also find it funny that you downplay the reputation of the NRC, which is more or less the gold standard in evaluating departments. But don't take my or their word for it; just look at all the supporting data.</p>
<p>And I already posted a brief rebuttal of the very flawed "faculty productivity index":</p>
<p>
[quote]
citing the faculty productivity index really doesn't prove a whole lot other than just that--faculty productivity. Like many other rankings, it's very flawed. For example, it often doesn't account for differences in size, doesn't always accurately measure impact (in its citations), and has many arbitrary rules (why only Fulbrights between 2002 and 2006? Why Nobel Laureates for the past 50 years? Why 60% for books? Why give them 5x the weight as journal articles in humanities, but a different factor in other broad fields?). That it doesn't necessarily correlate with program quality is obvious: for example, in linguistics, UNC comes in at #3; anyone who knows anything about linguistics knows UNC isn't even on the map when it comes to top departments. U Arizona at #2? UMD-CP in the top 10, when even its own students find the program to be mediocre at best? Where's Berkeley? Where's UCLA? They are powerhouses in linguistics.</p>
<p>You can see this in many other disciplines, too. Rice #1 for CS? UCSD, UCD, and UCI in the top 5 for math--no Harvard, MIT, U Chicago, etc. to be seen?</p>
<p>So it might give you a general idea of the productivity of the faculty, but really, it doesn't correlate completely (or much at all) with quality of programs.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
Yup, clear discrepancy. Hopkins is definitely a lot smaller. You can tend to find a lot more classes that are smaller (10:1 vs. 15:1 student/faculty ratio), probably more individual attention.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>We all know how student:faculty ratios can be fudged. In addition, smaller =/= better necessarily. UC Santa Cruz has fewer than 15,000 students, less than half of Berkeley, but is it better? Brown is substantially smaller than Harvard, but is it better? You get the point.</p>
<p>Just look at the class sizes:</p>
<p>Berkeley:
under 20: 62%
over 50: 14%</p>
<p>JHU:
under 20: 66%
over 50: 11%</p>
<p>So not much better.</p>
<p>"If you want a tech field CMU is one of the best around, far superior to JHU. For anything else (besides maybe business), I'd go JHU."</p>
<p>Definitely not business. JHU's business program is geared toward working adults. However, it's economics program is good. For business, it's 1. Cal, 2. Virginia then T-3. CMU and Maryland, 5. VA Tech</p>
<p>The NRC data come out only once every ten years or so, with the next one due in September, as pointed out by kyledavid80. Higher education should not (and does not) change significantly from year to year, and NRC is not out to sell magazines like the USNWR. </p>
<p>As for faculty productivity, I suppose that is just one part of the equation to evaluate the overall quality of programs.</p>
<p>Yup, Anti-JHU sentimism at its best. Do you have something to prove or show into my face to say JHU is not on par with UC Berkeley or if JHU sucks.</p>
<p>This is truly ridiculous. I could careless about the rankings, you can dispute whatever you want, the facts are there, JHU has a number of top programs that is supported by a very reputatable source...We have conflicting data. Okay, I hate to get into arguments like this, complete bone heads here can't help and stop to inject "Stanford" to boast about one's college while completely bashing against another. I could care less about these sort of talks....UC Berkeley dude and I agreed peers are peers. Knock it off with the fighting will you.</p>
<p>The only other school that can touch Stanford, that is the most ironically craziest post I've seen by a poster all day. Really, is this all that neccessary. Also, play down Harvard, thats right ::roll eyes:: This is ridiculous.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Do you have something to prove or show into my face to say JHU is not on par with UC Berkeley or if JHU sucks.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I never said JHU sucks; I flat-out said JHU's a great school, a peer of Berkeley overall. I'm sorry you're too blinded by your JHU fanaticism that you can't even accept that another school might have stronger programs, even when the hard data is presented to you on a silver platter. This, in your view, is just "anti-JHU sentimism," when it really isn't.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I could careless about the rankings, you can dispute whatever you want, the facts are there, JHU has a number of top programs that is supported by a very reputatable source...We have conflicting data.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>We don't have conflicting data. You just keep flashing a piece of the pie in others' faces and telling them that it's the whole pie. As Techie1988 said, faculty productivity is only one part of the equation.</p>
<p>
[quote]
complete bone heads here can't help and stop to inject "Stanford" to boast about one's college while completely bashing against another.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Oh, of course, I'd write a long post with analytical data supporting a school I don't go to, just so that I can stick in a sly aside about Stanford. Man am I glad that the data just happened to support my position! But what's the point, you've found me out. Darn you, Phead128, I'll get you one day!</p>
<p>;)</p>
<p>Really, why would I need to "inject" a comment about Stanford, something which everyone already knows? Stanford holds its own against any school; the data, the reputation, the knowledge of CCers all points to that. I was discussing graduate strength, and supporting my reasoning why Berkeley is so far ahead of JHU. Sorry you couldn't see that either.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You look like a complete bone head doing that.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And you lash out when the fallacies of your arguments are pointed out.</p>
<p>You will never find a single post that would say that I ever claimed that I disputed UC Berkeley's raw strength in graduate programs. Go through every single one of my posts now. I feel that I have been grossly misinterpreted. This is simply just truly out of context. Dude, I have never said anything to the likes of :</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'm sorry you're too blinded by your JHU fanaticism that you can't even accept that another school might have stronger programs, even when the hard data is presented to you on a silver platter.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I HAVE NEVER REJECTED THIS, god, I can actually go back through every single one of my posts and prove you wrong. I've always stated that JHU are peers and have countered arguments that JHU lacks diversed and strong programs in humanities and sciences. That is all I recollected that I did. I merely shown that JHU is not weak in these areas, I have never stated that I did not agree that UC BBerkeley is stronger than JHU, All I said this entire time is that JHU stands on its own two feet and that JHU has top programs, that is all. </p>
<p>Grossly taken out of context, I feel like I'm the victim here and I'm accused of doing something that I would certainly NEVER do in my life, discredit raw data and say that UC Berkeley is not stronger than JHU in terms of graduate level programs. </p>
<p>GO back and see I was merely defending JHU from stupid posters. Get real man, seriously. I am dead serious, this is taken way out of proportions.</p>
<p>EDIT: Btw, Its funny, I never boasted about JHU except in retailiation for posts that seemingly shows lack of knowledge on part of JHU. </p>
<p>Its things like this that i say that separates me from other posts. I've said: </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>GET REAL SON, KNOW THE FACTS BECAUSE YOU START LYING.</p>
<p>Johns Hopkins Med school can make up for any and every shortcoming of JHU in my eyes.</p>
<p>Its like the cornerstone of the practice of medicine</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>Why do a bunch of college noobs care so much about prestige in the first place? Do your best wherever you are and you'll get somewhere in life, it's almost guaranteed!<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>Thanks, flyzeggs, for a rare word of wisdom (on this prestige-obsessed forum). Nothing can take the place of the work ethic, and it alone can take you far in life. It's worth repeating.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You will never find a single post that would say that I ever claimed that I disputed UC Berkeley's raw strength in graduate programs. Go through every single one of my posts now. I feel that I have been grossly misinterpreted. This is simply just truly out of context. Dude, I have never said anything to the likes of :
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I never said or implied anything of the sort. I can read just fine, and I saw you praise Berkeley earlier in the thread.</p>
<p>You are misinterpreting what I have said, which is not that you fail to acknowledge Berkeley's excellent programs, but that you are reluctant to accept that they are, on an individual basis, pound-for-pound, ranked significantly higher than JHU's in many cases.</p>
<p>Nor have I ever implied that JHU is "weak." It has several top-10 programs, quite a few more top-15 ones, a tippy-top, arguably #1 med school (which Berkeley does not even have, though you might consider UCSF to fill that void), and in the five main areas of study, JHU is ranked, at worst, in the top 25 in the nation. That's quite a feat. My point is that while JHU is very strong (as I implied when I said it gets a 7-8, leaning more toward 8, in prestige and quality of programs), Berkeley is usually even stronger--oftentimes by a significant margin. Again, this is not to downplay JHU's strengths, but to acknowledge the even greater strengths of Berkeley. Though, of course, JHU does beat Berkeley in some disciplines.</p>
<p>Again, not even Harvard has what Berkeley has, which is breadth and depth in all fields. The only school to claim such a title as well is Stanford (see why I mention it?). This is not a bad thing. The OP simply asked for strength in ALL fields, not just specific areas or groups.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Grossly taken out of context, I feel like I'm the victim here and I'm accused of doing something that I would certainly NEVER do in my life, discredit raw data and say that UC Berkeley is not stronger than JHU in terms of graduate level programs.</p>
<p>GO back and see I was merely defending JHU from stupid posters. Get real man, seriously. I am dead serious, this is taken way out of proportions.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I can tell that you're just defending JHU (really, I can tell ;)), but that's not the point. All UCBChemEGrad said was that "Berkeley has more renowned academic programs in a much broader range of fields than JHU, CMU and UVA." He never said anything against JHU (or the others), just emphasized Berkeley's strength. So you countered with: "Though if you wish to know, Johns Hopkins has a number of programs in the top ten as well," which is definitely true. But then you went on to say: "Hopkins does stand its own against UC Berkeley," which IMO is not completely true. 9 top-ten programs versus 35 (the only one not ranked in the top 10 was ranked #12)? And that's not counting US News rankings, which Berkeley's consistently ranked top 10 in all the discplines ranked, or THES, or Gourman, where Berkeley nearly always places top 10. The data all supports those 11-year-old rankings.</p>
<p>You then proceed to support your point with data that only gives a small view of the quality of a program. That's fallacious.</p>
<p>When you start lashing out and calling others names (particularly me), I begin to feel that you're so fanatic about JHU that any claim that doesn't explicitly laud the university is met with hostility on your part. Case in point:</p>
<p>
[quote]
GET REAL SON, KNOW THE FACTS BECAUSE YOU START LYING.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Precisely why I don't like having discussions with you. You become hostile so easily.</p>
<p>Like I've said many times, it's quite hard to judge overall how good CMU is. I'd give it the nod in areas of business/SCS/design/archie/engineering while giving the nod to JHU in most other areas including IR/humanities/premed.</p>
<p>"I never knew anything about CMU other than engineering, CS, busienss, theater and DARPA. lol" - Even if that is all you know, isn't that enough? I never knew Notre Dame as anything more as a good football school for the movie "Rudy" but yet it is ranked higher than both CMU and Berkeley.</p>
<p>Also, JHU is not better at business. CMU's Tepper School of Business shares its #2 highest median salaries with Stern/Ross/Wharton at 60k and its top hiring companies are all top Wall St. companies/banks as well as T5 consulting firms. Not to mention the selectivity and acceptance rates are Ivy-esque with extremely high SAT/Rank while sporting a 12% acceptance rate.</p>
<p>To answer the question I'd place Cal/JHU/CMU together as one is not collectively better than the others, rather they have their strengths and weaknesses. I know quite a few students at these schools and not many would state that one is "better" than the other. I'm sure SCS kids at CMU and Premeds at JHU acknowledge the strengths of their respective programs but even they would state that overall the schools are very much peers.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Precisely why I don't like having discussions with you. You become hostile so easily.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Thank you for reviving a thread. You have not proved your point. UCChemBEguy and I agree we were peers. I don't know why you even started this discussion back up to prove a point that JHU was not what it already is.</p>
<p>This whole thing started by you typing out this long history of notes disproving me. You a total idiot. I hate having arguments with you since you have not proved a single point that I have fanatically boasted about JHU (more like the other side by defending it against dumb posts that lack insight into the strength of our programs)</p>
<p>You're an idiot. I don't even know how stupid a person you are. Like, I'm baffled at how much of an stupid person you are. You started this whole thing and now your getting mad at having me defend a position and accuse me of a ridiculous thing like being fanatical about my university.</p>
<p>I'll let CC judge that one.</p>
<p>(By the way, the topic was still going--I just refuted your biased claims, which UCBChemEGrad started to do; I just provided support. Like him, I have said, multiple times, that JHU and Berkeley are peers overall.)</p>
<p>^ DUDE, YOU WERE THE ONLY THAT JUST CAME OUT OF NO WHERE and discredit everyone I had to say and revitalize this thread from oblivion. I never excessively countered any raw data set that proved UC Berkeley's dominance over JHU.</p>
<p>Everything you said, Especially this post</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>This is pure ownage on my part, I have just been slapped in the face with some worthless groundless, baseless accusations. GOD, I feel I have been violated. This is just simply too ridiculous to fathom. You can just go lie in a ditch and die. This doesn't make sense to me at all, Why you would accuse me of something like this. You took things way out of proportions and accused me of doing something I didn't do. Now you blame me for creating this discussion.</p>
<p>The perfect scenario is if this discussion was layed to rest, now your counterarguing that the thread and discussion was still going on? Are you insane?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>All I got to say is, if you look back into my old posts in this thread, I have actually praised UC Berkeley and said: " Berkeley definitely needs to up it up to T15, or T20 to start it off because it definitely deserves it." Its okay if your obvlious to these facts, its okay if you believe that I incoherently reject all notion that UC Berkeley is not superior in terms of graduate level programs. You can search the entire history of all my post here at CC, you will never find a ridiculous claim like that.</p>
<p>No, you are misinterpreting what I'm saying, exploding it grossly out of context. Read my posts again. I'm tired of reiterating these things and I am tired of talking to ppl that make erratic open ended stupid judgement all the time and go to the extent to claim I was doing something that I would have never done in my life. Dude, you are insane. by all means, insane.</p>
<p>
[quote]
DUDE, YOU WERE THE ONLY THAT JUST CAME OUT OF NO WHERE
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Came out of nowhere? I started posting on the second page, to complement what UCBChemEGrad posted.</p>
<p>
[quote]
discredit everyone I had to say and revitalize this thread from oblivion
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It was on the first page, near the top. ;)</p>
<p>
[quote]
Why you would accuse me of something like this.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Perhaps it was this:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Yup, Anti-JHU sentimism at its best.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Or this:</p>
<p>
[quote]
This is truly ridiculous.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Or this:</p>
<p>
[quote]
complete bone heads here can't help and stop to inject "Stanford" to boast about one's college
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Or this:</p>
<p>
[quote]
You look like a complete bone head doing that.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Instead of refuting my arguments, you bellow "anti-JHU sentimism" and proceed to insult other members, mainly me. Why not just keep the discussion civil?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Now you blame me for creating this discussion.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Er, no, I don't "blame" anyone; the OP created a thread, you responded, others responded, I responded. It's a friendly discussion until you start to insult others.</p>
<p>
[quote]
if you look back into my old posts in this thread
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I already acknowledged them a while ago.</p>
<p>
[quote]
UC Berkeley is not superior in terms of graduate level programs. You can search the entire history of all my post here at CC, you will never find a ridiculous claim like that.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm just going to repeat what I said before. I never said or implied anything of the sort. I can read just fine, and I saw you praise Berkeley earlier in the thread. You are misinterpreting what I have said, which is not that you fail to acknowledge Berkeley's excellent programs, but that you are reluctant to accept that they are, on an individual basis, pound-for-pound, ranked significantly higher than JHU's in many cases. (I don't know how else to make this clear; I've presented the rankings, and pointed you to many others to verify my claims.)</p>
<p>
[quote]
No, you are misinterpreting what I'm saying, exploding it grossly out of context. Read my posts again. I'm tired of reiterating these things and I am tired of talking to ppl that make erratic open ended stupid judgement all the time and go to the extent to claim I was doing something that I would have never done in my life. Dude, you are insane. by all means, insane.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>By this point, I have no idea what you are talking about.</p>
<p>And I don't want to. Let this discussion be over.</p>