<p>Is pre-med at princeton better than a state school? What are the chances of getting into medical school? does princeton deflate your gpa enough for yout to be a failure and not get in anywhere?</p>
<p>I’m not sure of the exact statistics, but pre-med at Princeton is outstanding (or at least a current student seems to think so). The deflated GPAs Princeton gives out are well known in the academic community and the dean of princeton has tried to make it clear that a Princeton GPA should be viewed with a little more optimism as compared to a school who doesn’t deflate their GPAs</p>
<p>[Post-graduation</a> data -*Office of the Dean of the College](<a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/odoc/faculty/grading/postdegree/]Post-graduation”>http://www.princeton.edu/odoc/faculty/grading/postdegree/)</p>
<p>Scroll down to see medical school admissions statistics. It has been around 90 percent for the past 7+ years. I know that looking at percentages is stupid for most schools, because the fudge the numbers, but I doubt a school of Princeton’s caliber messes with the numbers like that.</p>
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^^ Straight from their link. Impressive stuff P!</p>
<p>^What those and any numbers don’t tell is how many started out freshman year on a pre med track but never made it to the application process.</p>
<p>Princeton grading may be tough. However, it is a no-brainer to choose Princeton over any state school, unless you have full finnacial aid. To my knowledge, the average GPA for Princeton students accepted into Medical Schools is 3.4. For you to be competitive from a state school, you had better have at least 3.75. If you screw your GPA in Princeton, you still a Princeton graduate, and have better chance to advance yourself in other graduate schools or employment. If you screw your GPA in a state school, you will be in deep trouble in pursuing anything, unless you create your own employment or have a family connection for jobs.</p>
<p>The problem with pedigrees and medical school is that no one really knows how much they count. Seems like a good estimate is that they count more than those from no-name schools want to admit, and they count less than those at top schools wish.</p>
<p>The bottom line is, go to a school where you won’t break the bank (med school’s a huge expense in your future) and are set up to excel. Whether that’s a big school or a small school, an urban school or a rural school, a cutthroat competitive school or a more laid-back one, a school with a ton of premeds or a school with relatively few, a school near your home or one that’s clear across the country, or whatever, all of that is up to you. The student who excels at undergrad across a variety of measures is the one who’s going to get into med school, which may or may not be the one whose diploma says Princeton.</p>
<p>Can you get into a top-10 school from Princeton? Yes.
Can you get into a top-10 school from Big State U? Yes.
Can you get into a top-10 school from not-quite-flagship State U? Yes.
Are there more than 10 good med schools? Yes.
How many? About 120 (allopathic)
Will you still want to go to med school in 4 years? Who knows.
Will you want to go to a top-10 school? Who knows.</p>
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<p>Umm, gpa is only ~half of the battle for an interview. (Hint: mcat can count for more) And since Princeton selects for high testers, its average student SHOULD score higher on the mcat than the student at ‘state school’. (A 3.4 at ‘state school’ with a high 30’s mcat will do just fine.) So the real question is whether the same student would score as well on the mcat regardless of what college s/he attends.</p>
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<p>Ballpark numbers: Excluding tech/engineering colleges, approximately 25% of each college’s liberal arts Frosh class are premed. P’ton has approx 1300 Frosh. Thus, ~325 are premed on Day 1. According to the link above, ~110 seniors apply each year. (Of those, 90% are accepted.) But that means that 200+ premed Frosh (2/3rds) find other interests – either by choice, or by low grades in bcpm.</p>
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<p>Source, please? :rolleyes:</p>
<p><a href=“A%203.4%20at%20’state%20school’%20with%20a%20high%2030’s%20mcat%20will%20do%20just%20fine.”>quote</a>
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<p>And I have a single data point to support that statement. D1: GPA 3.4 at state U; MCAT 36. She’s a happy MS1.</p>
<p>I realize a single data point isn’t proof, but it sure worked for her.</p>
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I suspect that, at a school like Princeton, the ratio of non-senior (i.e., alumni) applicants and senior applicants is 50:50, and maybe even 55:45. One reason is that a higher percentage of Princetonian’s families are weathier and/or more knowledgeable in how to “do premed” than their counterpart (on average) at state universities. The student from such a family 1) may not be in a rush to build up their credential by the end of junior year – they may want to have additional “edges” in their application by choosing to have another year to beef up their ECs. 2) may want to do more “something else” (including having fun in their “eating clubs”) before they plunge into the medicine career.</p>
<p>I even heard a rumor that many from such a “high-calibered” school would choose to major in a non-science area they really excel at while in college (so they take fewer science classes than a typical science major premed to insure a higher BCPM GPA), and then attend a post-bacc program or take some other local less competitive university to finish up the remaining premed classes. (Read: their family can afford this expensive route.)</p>
<p>I even suspect that the medical school students as a group are more likely from families with a better access to (financial, academic, research, volunteering, clinical, or connection to people in careers indirectly or directly related to medicine, etc.) resources.</p>
<p>“Source, please?”</p>
<p>Well, here is the medical school admission grid of UCB and University of Michigan, some of the best state universities in the nation. [UM</a> :: The Career Center :: Students :: Pre-Medicine :: Medical School Application :: UM Application Statistics](<a href=“http://www.careercenter.umich.edu/students/med/medappstats2010.html]UM”>http://www.careercenter.umich.edu/students/med/medappstats2010.html)
<a href=“https://career.berkeley.edu/MedStats/2010seniors.stm[/url]”>https://career.berkeley.edu/MedStats/2010seniors.stm</a></p>
<p>As you can see, for Michigan graduates, a 3.4 -3.6 and 35+ range get you just over 60% acceptance into any medical schools. UCB fares even worse, even 3.9 and 35+ do not get 90% admission. I have to point out that Princeton average acceptance MCAT is 33. Clearly, medical schools give elite schools some breaks. I read from time to time medical schools’ bragging about what kind of schools their students come from. Let’s face it, nothing is fair in this world.</p>
<p>^ The sample size for UCB is too small. As it is self-reported, the result could be biased. In general, it is likely that UCB students do not fare very well. They have to deal with the Calfornia medical schools (which are harder to get in), and their students may be too homogenious in the types of their achievement (likely similar to the case of MIT which recruit too many science/engineering talents who fight against each other academically to the expense of other development which is also important for medical school admission) so it is hard to stand out when their strength tend to be concentrated in fewer areas. (what may work against them is that maybe they have too many applicants who insist on having a solid backup plan like being an engineering or business major, etc., considering the composition of their students.)</p>
<p>“In general, it is likely that UCB students do not fare very well. They have to deal with the Calfornia medical schools (which are harder to get in), and their students may be too homogenious in the types of their achievement (likely similar to the case of MIT which recruit too many science/engineering talents who fight against each other academically to the expense of other development which is also important for medical school admission) so it is hard to stand out when their strength tend to be concentrated in fewer areas.”</p>
<p>Not true. MIT medical school placement is actually excellent, ranging 86-93%. When GPA reaches 3.3 (slightly above the average of MIT students), it is close to 100% placement, even better than Princeton. But the same thing cannot be said about Caltech.</p>
<p>The Cal numbers are self-reported, and UC does not track. Indeed, Cal Career Services has no way to track applicants, and has not the faintest idea who applies and when. The numbers reported on that table represent about 1/6th of the total applicants from Cal (if I recall). </p>
<p>Even if you stretch beyond statistical belief that self-reported numbers = data, the results of 24 applicants is way to small to draw any conclusions. Perhaps all 24 applied only to top 15 med schools (three UCs are in top 15). Perhaps most of them applied only to MD/PhD programs. Perhaps one of those 35’s has a 8 VR? Perhaps one is a true gunner that even a recommender commented on. </p>
<p>MIT? Huh? At a 3.73, MIT’s mean gpa for acceptance is higher than the national average of 3.6. If anything, MIT’s should be lower, reflecting MIT’s rigor and status as (arguably) the top tech school in the world.</p>
<p>Bluebayou: I have followed UCB pre-med placement for several years. The statistics are quite stable from year to year. I never see a good year from UCB. The medical acceptance of GPA for MIT fluctuate from year to year (3.4-3.7). The MCAT average for MIT pre-med is also higher (~35). Perhaps the quality of MIT students is indeed better and they are better prepared. Here is the link of the last three years MIT premed acceptance (<a href=“http://gecd-dev.mit.edu/sites/default/files/08-10medschoolacceptances.pdf[/url]”>http://gecd-dev.mit.edu/sites/default/files/08-10medschoolacceptances.pdf</a>). Top 10 enrollments are Harvard, Tufts, Stanford, Michigan, Wash U, Yale, U Pitt, Boston, Johns Hopkins, UCSF. Aside from Boston local schools, these are the very top medical schools in the country. Both Stanford and Yale have small classes (80s and 60s students per class), and MIT had 34 into Stanford and 27 into Yale in the last 3 years. It is quite a feat.</p>
<p>Sorry to OP, I found myself too much distracted by the unrelated questions. In short, Princeton is over any state university in any day of the week. Princeton GPA 3.4>=UCB 3.9 and >=Michigan 3.75. I did see somebody having <3.0 GPA from Princeton getting into medical school. The same GPA from a state school would be in trash bin even before being read. This will conclude my involvement in this thread.</p>
<p>Are the average gpa/mcat listed on that chart the average gpa/mcat of kids at those schools or are they the average gpa/mcat of the kids from MIT who got into those schools. (There is a huge difference between the two IMO)</p>
<p>If the answer is yes, to the 2nd part of my question are there really THAT many kids from MIT with such high gpas? If so, my gpa is **** compared to theirs. I have a 3.7 at a top 20 school as a B.S. in Biology and a B.A in Political Science.</p>
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<p>That is where you and I (and anyone else who has taken AP Stats) disagree. “Statistics” they are not. They are self-reported anecdotes. Nothing more. Again, those self-reported numbers are but a small slice of Cal’s applicants to med schools. And if you care to draw conclusions from self-reported anecdotes… :)</p>
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<p>Exactly, and yet their students still have to have a higher gpa than those from other colleges for acceptance to med school?</p>
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<p>Perhaps…but if true, why would MIT’s applicant need both a higher gpa and a higher mcat for acceptance to med. If the quality if indeed "better’, why wouldn’t their gpa for acceptance be lower? Why arent’ MIT’s 3.4’s more successful? Is that really logical to you? (Or does, MIT have grade inflation?)</p>
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<p>The latter is not 60s; it is about 100 (plus or minus 1). Smaller than most schools in NE, but not that small. It is rumored about 1/3 of matriculated students this year are Asian Americans. Likely it has something to do with the fact that it is a research-oriented medical school (thesis requirement! Anyone wants to take it?!) It is rumored that Stanford medical school is heavily into research also, not a typical medical school whose purpose is to produce the front-line medical doctors (like primary care doctors.)</p>
<p>@bluebayou,
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<p>You appear to be confused about what a “statistic” is. Given ANY sample, you can derive a"statistic(s)". It doesn’t matter how flawed the sample may be, you STILL have statistics. The sample may be biased, or maybe too small (in which case you can use non-parametric techniques to generate statistics) but the term “statistic” is still valid. And yes, I did take AP Stats :)</p>
<p>Bluebayou: I drag me back into this. There is no pre-med student in MIT with GPA less than 3.2. There is no student of MIT with MCAT more than 33 not getting into medical school, regardless GPA. They did not publish their MCAT average this year. But I remember their applicant mcat was around 34 and GPA 3.6 last year. Here is their 2010 data. <a href=“http://gecd-dev.mit.edu/sites/default/files/premeddata.pdf[/url]”>http://gecd-dev.mit.edu/sites/default/files/premeddata.pdf</a>. In 2009, their pre-med student body is 60s, similar to Princeton’s. The admission rate is 93%. I have to point out that MIT has no pre-screen pre-med practice.</p>