<p>You all have some seriously misguided opinions on the greek system and in my opinion it's based off some ignorance. You're all so disconnected from the actual organizations that I'm not even going to waste my time citing the highest GPAs on campus, philanthropy events, or personal expierences because they clearly just want to drink and have sex.</p>
<p>I agree with Transfer. I just read this thread for the first time yesterday and it really bothered me the way people who have no connection with the Greek system are painting it with such a broad brush. When I opened it--it is so long--I expected to see a rational, fact-based discussion as is so common here. Instead, what I see are sweeping generalizations from people with no connection to the system.</p>
<p>I am just as heartbroken as anyone over the abuses in the Greek system that have led to deaths. But alcohol poisonings and deaths occur within and without fraternities. Look at Williams and Pomona, two outstanding schools without fraternities (I guess pomona has local ones but not national?) and with some serious alcohol issues. </p>
<p>I know too many extremely fine and sober people who have been in fraternities/sororities--including some of my doctors, colleagues, my father, high-ranking officials at top universities--to be able to believe that the picture is as universally bad as has been portrayed. I went to a college without them so I am ignorant. I would be interested in specific information about specific fraternities: which have reputations for academic excellence, strong athletic affiliation, strong community service component, etc. I'm quite surprised that I haven't seen any of that here.</p>
<p>The whole issue of excessive drinking on campus is one that puzzles and concerns me. Our whole family are essentially non-drinkers so I just don't get it. Has drinking always been so central to the college experience? It wasn't in my "crowd" and I didn't really observe it in my dorms, etc.</p>
<p>The frat/soro groups are just like any other group of friends. There are bad groups and good groups. You just need to find a good one. </p>
<p>The reason why parents are in a panic about these groups is because the news ALWAYS broadcasts alcohol binging in frats. They never broadcast the efforts of other frats/soro groups working hard together with studying and working on commuity projects. Parents don't relize that any group of friends can abuse alcohol and any other drugs for that matter.</p>
<p>Finding a frat/soro is like finding group of friends. Only the student can decide if he finds a good group or a bad one.</p>
<p>Another way of trying to figure out the record of a sorority might be to contact the Panhellenic counsel of that particular school. They are an oversight organization and probably vary from campus to campus as to their influence. I would think fraternities would have a similar organization. I actually thought this group was for both until I looked at the website. I know that we had panhellenic reps from our house that attended regular meetings. </p>
<p>Here is a link to it: <a href="http://www.npcwomen.org/about/an_mission.php%5B/url%5D">http://www.npcwomen.org/about/an_mission.php</a></p>
<p>So, help me with this, why ARE frats and sororities on campus? What purpose do they serve and how do they benefit the college/university and the campus at large? I am admittedly disconnected from the Greek system and rely on the news, research like Xiggi presents, new information from sources like greekchat.com and my own common sense, years of experience, years in college (working on my doctorate so lots of years), as well experience raising teens, working a hospital (peds), etc, to form my opinions. I am learning here from others that there are some good frats out there, that there can be some positive experiences but I still haven't learned enough for me to understand what purpose these houses have for the college population at large - why they should be there at all. Their presence to me, still seems divisive and the actions of many still seem irresponsible and even dangerous. Why support their presence on campus? Assuming that there is reason to support their presence on campus, why allow hazing and binge drinking? I am one who has consistently said that the drinking issue is cultural and currently out of control in many settings. All the more reason to put some thumbs on opportunites or settings that glorify drinking or facilitate the likelihood.</p>
<p>I have to agree with Xiggi and ID that 5 drinks is excessive regardless of the time - and imagine the 90lb young girls drinking that much. 21 shots and stopping at 15 - that is risking your health - no doubt about it. Glad you stopped but why do it in the first place? </p>
<p>emeraldkity I was not understanding your post that well about 9/11. I do not see lasting effect from the immediate bonding of 9/11. In fact, we are a nation sorely divided at this time on the pros and cons of the Iraqi war, the economy and social responsibilities, religion and government,.......among other things. I do not embrace the war although I support our soldiers anywhere they have to go - maybe I misunderstood your post but I feel torn apart from, not bonded to, our present government. I don't mean to start another thread - clearly you are learning that I have strong opinions. I agree that rituals are welcomed by chidren and are bonding in nature for people - but rituals do not have to involve risk of health.</p>
<p>Xiggi wrote: "The indereminate amount of time is a short amount of time. </p>
<p>It does not surprise me that it proves nothing to you. It requires a certain amount of reading comprehension aptitude."</p>
<p>Perhaps my reading comprehension isn't up to your standard, but I at least know that a "short amount of time" IS indeterminant. I don't rely on just the posts from this thread. I have looked at the study results and the media coverage of it and the narrowist definition of the time span that I have found was "one sitting". To me "one sitting" would likely be defined as "one party" which, if spread over 4 or 5 hours, wouldn't even result in someone being legally drunk by driving laws. In other words, anyone who goes to a party and drinks at a rate of one drink per hour (considered to be an acceptable rate even for driving) would quite likely have met the definition of "binge drinking" as defined by the Harvard study.</p>
<p>"predatory acts"?? The next time somebody forces me to take a drink will be the first. If one is so weak minded that they will do something so dumb--well Darwin at work.</p>
<p>Riley--why support the Young Sparts League or any other whacked group on campus--because it is a friKking free country last time I heard. Don't like the Sparts--don't join--don't like frats--don't join, but don't tell me not to.</p>
<p>Lipschup - I thought you were a student - don't know why - I am reading hastily I guess. So sorry! I am also in school, getting my doctorate, but working as well although I have kept a quasi-part-time schedule. I say quasi because I am the dept administrator so that doesn't always work out so well. It has been hard on my kids, especially my youngest who has a serious case of ADD/ADHD - if I don't help him stay organized at night he starts to slip. Add to that the college admissions process and I have been a crazy mother for the past l8 months. I have great support in my husband though - he is pretty evolved and my kids have learned to do laundry and such for themselves. Like you, however, I am listening to my friends talk about retirement - doesn't seem to be an option for me as I still have a 14yo as well as a senior to put through college and I am older than you - 52! Lately, retirement is sounding very appealing. I recently learned, though, that my kids are pretty proud of me going to school. Our high school's mission is to "develop lifelong learners" and my son proudly used me as an example of a lifelong learner so I am sure you daughter will, at least at some point, be very proud of your accomplishment.</p>
<p>Rileydog....your point is a good one, but then you have to look at society more generally and ask why does any kind of exclusionary group exist anywhere? Fraternities are just the earliest incarnation of what comes later, in the form of invitation-only clubs of all kinds. I think that a lot of people might say that fraternities provide an important social support system for members and nonmembers alike--like the girl from Dartmouth pointed out. I am NOT defending them, just exploring the issue. </p>
<p>I lived in a couple of co-op houses in college (during summers only) and the comfort of being in a home and having a small group of people to interact with was great. If a fraternity/sorority is the only thing available on campus other than larger and more impersonal dorms, then I can see that they can be good for some kids who prefer more of a family setting.</p>
<p>barrons, what is the Young Sparts League? Is admission to this league open to everyone and if not, does the selection process/initiation ritual include paddling, drinking or hazing?</p>
<p>"I agree that rituals are welcomed by chidren and are bonding in nature for people - but rituals do not have to involve risk of health."</p>
<p>I agree completely. But the point that I and others have been making is that except for the rare circumstances these rituals do not risk health. I agree that any frat guilty of this type of abuse needs to be shut down, just like teachers who abuse their students need to be punished or priests that abuse boys need to be punished or drivers who drink and drive under the influence need to be punished or doctors who are incompetant need to lose their license. However, the fact that there are bad teachers, priests and drivers and doctors does not mean that we should stigmatize the entire category as being bad. This is the logic that is being used by the anti-frat crowd on this thread.</p>
<p>This thread is getting very heated. Let's not ruin the discussion with personal criticisms regardless of how strongly we feel about the issue.</p>
<p>patient, I agree with you re: benefits of family/comfort - I think my son will have a hard time living in a dorm room and, having lived in one, I think it might not be the best lifestyle or living space for learning although I did extol the virtues of being forced to live with others! If family/homestyle living was open to everyone, or say to all the seniors, or all the upperclassmen, and if there was not such an association for many frats with drinking/hazing I would welcome this type of housing for all students. Dorms are not exactly comfortable!!!</p>
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<blockquote> <p>I have to agree with Xiggi and ID that 5 drinks is excessive regardless of the time - </p> </blockquote>
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<p>Actually, I don't think that having five beers over the course of an evening would necessarily be "over the line" - as long as there are no car keys handy. </p>
<p>It would be for me. However, I'm not a pollyanna about the excess of youth and I don't really have a problem with college students drinking in a safe college environment with a "tipsy" limit somewhere around the legal BAC percentages.</p>
<p>So, I would agree that the 5 drink definition of "binge" drinking is probably a bit arbtrary. However, those who are hanging a rhetorical hat on that argument are missing the point. In these surveys, we are using an arbitrary number to look at relative drinking rates. Whatever the arbitrary number is, the survey will still show differences among colleges and groups within a given college.</p>
<p>Frankly, it would be best if the we really illuminated the alchohol abuse issue and published the data that is collected for each college. The relative percentage of "binge drinkers" (whatever the definition) on campus would probably be a far more useful piece of information in college selection than a few points difference in acceptance rate or median SATs.</p>
<p>Give us an empirical measure of which schools cater to boozers and which don't.</p>
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<p>On a related note, I am not totally against kids joining fraternities. I grew up in a region of the country where every rich white college student joined a frat or sorority as a matter of course. Many of these were stereotypical "frat boys" who spent their high school years drinking 'til they puked and, I assume, did likewise in college. However, others were not and joined fraternities simply because that's what you do in that region of the country. So, I don't hold it against someone for being a "frat-boy". Nor, do I give much credence to the oft-touted positives of the Greek system.</p>
<p>As to why it exists: the main reason is that colleges often like to turn their responsibilities in housing and social life over to somebody else. It's expedient for them to wipe their hands of two areas of the undergrad experience that are never easy to get right.</p>
<p>Rileydog, you have been consistent in your assertion that frats are exclusionary and imply that it is the rare minority who somehow become eligible to join a frat. Do you have any data to back up your assertion? From my son's involvement, I think the environment is the opposite to the picture that you paint. Given the reading on greekchat that I did I think the typical frat is in the situation where they are under-enrolled and are doing everything possible to entice more members to join. Certainly there may be some premier greek houses that are hard to get into, but there are also elite singing groups that regularly turn down prospective members. That's part of life that our kids need to learn to live with. But, I'm sure that if your son wants to join a frat, he will be able to find one that would welcome his membership. The good news is that he is likely to be happiest with that bunch of guys anyway.</p>
<p>The Sparts are on old commie group. Pretty much only open to commies. So long as people are free to decide whom they associate with and how they select them what's your problem? They are not telling you what to do--give them the same respect. No one was ever forced to join a frat.</p>
<p>I think its interesting that whenever most people hear about fraternities and sororities, the first thing that comes to mind are wild parties and alcohol related events. While pretty much every greek org has a philanthropic goal, they often pale in comparision to the overall desire to have a rampant social life. This is what turned me off to pretty much all of the sororities on campus. When I was doing research on the sororities on my campus, I was somewhat appalled at their missions. Every group was centered on the social aspects instead of community aspects. Not one group offered scholarships to people who weren't in their org. On my campus, with the exception of the tri-deltas, there seems to be very little done to help the overall good of the community. Everywhere around campus there are signs asking for volunteers... I find that strange since on my campus there are about 400 girls in greek orgs maybe 500 guys in the fraternity system. How on earth does that happen? I suppose it is more about making connections, but I don't think you need to be in a sorority or fraternity to know someone that could help you later in life. And simply joining will not guarantee that the people there will be incredibly helpful outside of college.</p>
<p>I was really considering joining one of the sororities on campus, but now I would rather pledge a traditionally black sorority. I'm not saying that black greeks are "better" and I know they are not without their own problems. Hazing especially. Generally the main difference between traditionally white greek orgs and traditionally black orgs is that the former are "social with an emphasis on philanthropy" while black orgs are "community service based with a social aspect."</p>
<p>I think either is fine and different people want different things, but I would much rather join an NPHC sorority that places its time into bettering the community than join a traditionally white sorority that focuses mainly on the social aspects of sisterhood.</p>
<p>That said I do think there is a reason for greek life, but I think that the original ideas of the founders have been somewhat lost to people who choose to pledge now. If the first thing people think of when they hear your greek org's name is partying, then the people who pledge are going to have the same mindset...</p>
<p>I'm all over the place here though, so I'll stop.</p>
<p>Oh yeah, I also wanted to add some info about the NPHC, the organization that governs black fraternities and sororities... someone mentioned that they were made seperate because they weren't allowed to join the IFC and NPH (the organizaions the govern traditionally white soroties and fraternities).</p>
<p>That isn't true. Originally the orgs in the NPHC were a part of the IFC and NPH, but because the ideas were so different (focus on community service instead of social activities). From what I understand, the dues paid by members comes back to the local chapters so they can pay for the community service activities... IFC and NPH orgs do not recieve any additional aid and are allowed to raise funds for the purchase of personal assets... but NPHC groups need additional aid, and cannot raise personal funds...</p>
<p>I dunno - five drinks to me is excessive but I am not a guy so maybe that is the difference. I don't think anyone believes it is over a long period of time - that would be working the numbers to one's advantage. In contrast, though, one sitting to me means before I get up to go to the ladies room (!)- so there are the extremes of interpretation for that undefined parameter - not good in research at all. I am not a pollyanna - I had my share of experiences not only in college but in high school. I also lost two friends to suicide as a result of LSD while in college. Perhaps it is the reality of these experiences that makes me recognize the need for greater protection and oversight for newly independent young adults - really, some kids just aren't ready to be making some of these decisions and most don't have the experience to predict negative outcomes and make a protective decision. </p>
<p>Another concern for me is just the atmosphere of the campus. If alchohol and frats are a central focus, to me, that is not a great environment for all students or something that I want to pay $30 to 40k/year for - why put your kid in that atmosphere??? Why pay for it? ID I think you have a good idea about collecting data - an article or guide that discussed what college administrations did re: drinking would be very useful as well. Maybe if they were ranked for their proactivity in monitoring drinking, for example, they would be more invested in improving the situation.</p>