<p>which one to choose for commerce/business undergraduate I have offers from both Queens and u of T (trinity)</p>
<p>Both are strong. I would go with U of T. much more to do in the world class city of Toronto than Kingston. and Trinity students act like Ivy Leaguers ( if you like that kind of thing:0).</p>
<p>for undergrad commerce its really no question...Queens</p>
<p>Theres a huge selectivity difference...getting into Queens commerce is no easy task whereas getting into UofT commerce is a joke</p>
<p>Queens com is arguably the best biz school in canada.</p>
<p>I have never been one for letting completely untrue statements go by like "getting into commerce at U of T is a joke." That was so untrue is was almost laughable. </p>
<p>According to the Financial times, U of T has the top MBA school in the country and 21 in the world and Queen's is number 75. And the MBA school, Rotman, runs the undergrad. Queen's while strong has a much better reputation in the executive MBA field here in Canada. </p>
<p>Here are the entrance requirements for U of T. Keep in mind they are just minimums so that the board even looks at your application. From U of T's site commerce site:</p>
<p>"Low to mid 80's average plus completion of an on-line supplemental application (profile), listing extracurricular activities such as sports, music, clubs, and work experience."</p>
<p>And if you're going by prestige then Western would trump both Queen's and U of T by the sheer force of the Richard Ivey School of Business which carries its reputation over into the undergrad program. But the orginal poster never included this school. </p>
<p>This aside, prestige and admission requirements have nothing to with academic rigour or what's viewed in the mind of potental employers. For all those U of T is much better. Especially when you have a business centre like Toronto for your internships and co-op work.</p>
<p>ok well maybe getting into UofT com isnt a joke but schools like Queens, Western, York, UBC, and Laurier are all harder to get into.</p>
<p>And since Canada only has a few good biz schools, that doesnt shine so well on UofT.</p>
<p>Also, noone here is discussing MBA's. Rotman is a very good school. Unfortunetly, undergrads dont take any classes at Rotman and UofT undergrad commerce just isnt as good as the ones mentioned above...the mba rankings are irrelevant.</p>
<p>Anyone with above 83% gets into UofT commerce whereas getting into Queens requires above 89% and solid, SOLID EC's. </p>
<p>Theres really no question about it.</p>
<p>What about McGill management? Isn't that considered a pretty prestigious program? Where does that rank?</p>
<p>McGill is also a solid school. Ill put them into groupings as I find groups to be superior to rankings (even though it is somewhat of a ranking).</p>
<p>Queens Commerce
York Schulich
Western Ivey</p>
<p>McGill Management
UBC Sauder
Laurier BBA</p>
<p>Toronto Commerce
McMaster BBA</p>
<p>As I mentioned, U of T requires very strong EC's for its business program and the grades I mentioned are just minimums. I know a friend with a 88% who didn't get into U of T commerce. It doesn't have an automatic entrance into the program like most Canuck schools at a certain grade point average. U of T commerce, like Queen's, demands very strong EC's. But even if I agreed with what you said, an 83% average is far from being a "joke" as you mentioned in your first post.</p>
<p>In addition, the reputation of the business program in Ontario surpasses Queens. Like I said Queen's executive MBA is where they really shine and I never said the MBA program and undergrad were one of the same at U of T. I said the reputation carries over into the undergrad business program. I am a business reporter I know what's going on in these circles here in Ontario.</p>
<p>I would rank the undergrad programs like this:</p>
<p>Western
U of T
Queen's
York
Laurier
UBC
McGill
Alberta
Mac</p>
<p>ivyleaguer - are you canadian? even if you are, you are quite unfamiliar with the topic at hand.</p>
<p>we can debate the defintion of a "joke" but its all relative. You need 90's to get into Queens Commerce, not the 83% you need for UofT Commerce. I know people that got rejected from Queens Commerce with 94's, 95's. Noone would get rejected from UofT with a 95. UofT Commerce is a school for people who got rejected from Queens, Schulich (same city), Ivey.</p>
<p>Im just going to tell you that, as far as graduating seniors, UofT just isnt in the same league as Queens Commerce, Western Ivey, and York Schulich. I personally think Laurier BBA is ahead of UofT as well but thats just my opinion.</p>
<p>You need to get over MBA Rankings and international prestige because when it comes to undergrad biz UofT just isnt on top. UofT is the best university in Canada but its superiority just doesnt come through in its undergrad biz program.</p>
<p>As I mentioned I am quite familiar with the business programs as I write for the biz section of major Toronto newspaper. and how many times do I have to state that 83 is a minimum to be even considered at U of T. You seem to keep glossing over what I've said 83 means. It means they LOOK at you NOT accept you. And as I said in my last email I wasn't looking at MBA rankings. </p>
<p>You need to read my responses more carefully. Furthermore, selectively doesn't NOT mean better program, if I concede that you can get rejected with 95% at Queen's. In academic circles or business circles your argument doesn't hold up. The academic rigour and quality of U of T's program holds up and is even better than most undergrad programs in the country. I just interviewed a recruiter for a story a few months ago and as far his clients are concerned they want U of T, Queens, Laurier and Alberta. If anything Schulich is slipping.</p>
<p>First - 83 is not the cutoff. That is a completely bogus statement and I wont believe that for a second. If you have above an 80, you can get into UofT commerce.</p>
<p>Second - selectivity may not be everything but you cant say that it doestn count...after all, a university wouldnt be elite if anyone could get in. So what does UofT have to offer for undegrad? Nothing special. It is a huge school that will not have the smaller class sizes, personal feel etc of a more selective, tighter-knit community like Queens or Schulich. Universities make up for lack of selectivity in the methods they use to develop students. While I agree the workload isnt easy or light, this development is less personal, less developing than Queens or Schulich.</p>
<p>I always defend UofT commerce...everyone puts it down etc but I tell them that it is still a solid program. However, there is no way that UofT commerce is superior to Queens and Schulich.</p>
<p>U of T undergrad commerce is not a super elite program (the size of the student body/acceptance rate can explain why); sometimes its even considered a safety school after queens, ivey, or schulich by top students in Ontario. neverthelss, there are still other students choosing U of T because of its reputation and its ranking.</p>
<p>You seem to make statements without backing any of them up, aca0260. Like 83 is the cut off is a bogus statement. Why don't you go to U of T's commerce website and read the statement below for yourself. THIS QUOTE COMES DIRECTLY FROM THE COMMERCE WEBSITE:</p>
<p>"LOW TO MID 80'S AVERAGE PLUS COMPLETION OF AN ON-LINE SUPPLEMENTAL APPLICATION (PROFILE), LISTING EXTRACURRICULAR ACTIVITIES SUCH AS SPORTS, MUSIC, CLUBS, AND WORK EXPERIENCE." </p>
<p>Note this quote also refutes your statement that only Queen's required EC's. Next time do your research before making scurrilous statements. If call commerce admissions they will tell you directly that these grades are just the MIMINUM you need to be considered, they dont guarantee you entrance into the program. Should I provide the phone number for you?</p>
<p>Secondly, except for Queen's most first and second year programs in Ontario universities have large classes, this is less of a problem in third or fourth year and sometimes in second with ones elective courses. U of T has always had a sink or swim environment. If students can't cope without being pampered then perhaps they should choose Queen's. But that doesn't take anything away from U of T commerce. And Estovoir, know university in Canada considers themselves an elitist neither U oft nor Queens.</p>
<p>ivyleaguer - you lack comprehension skills. Nowhere did I say anything that you jus alleged I said. I shouldnt even have to bother to explain myself again because someone who actually cared to understand wouldnt make false accusations.</p>
<p>1) You said that 83 is the cutoff. Your copied and pasted quote from UofT's website proves you wrong. Try not to step on your own toes. "Low-Mid 80's" demonstrates my point...ie UofT comm will mostly admit anyone with above 80%. Take a deep breath, calm yourself down and actually read peoples posts</p>
<p>I dont know where you think "Low to mid 80s" correlates with "83 is the cutoff" Do you know what a cutoff is? A cutoff is the bare minimum that is going to be considered. 83 is certainly not the bare minimum so I dont know what youre trying to prove. I said it once, Ill say it again....that was a bogus statement and that fact that youre trying to back it up and failing miserably reflects on your ability, or rather inability to present an argument.</p>
<p>2) I never said that UofT doesnt look at EC's. In fact, I have no idea where you are pulling this from. What I did say, was that Queens looks for solid, solid EC's...which it does. Dont lead yourself to assumptions. Once again, take a breathe, relax...and maybe you wont waste your own time researching what people just said and then posting like a hotshot like you have a clue as to what you're talking about.</p>
<p>BTW - "know" in the context you used it is incorrect. It is "no" not "know". For other people on this board, lets try to take advice from someone who KNOWS what theyre talking about.</p>
<p>aca0260
Thanks for the grammar check. My editor is always saying thats what she is there for: to check my typos. So you proved her point. LOL. But you bringing that up made it seem like you were hard pressed to insult me. Should I bring up the fact that you had the word doesnt misspelled as doesnt in your last post. (I guess I just did). </p>
<p>That aside, I used 83 as an example. I used 83 as a midway point because of the U of T quote saying low to mid eighties. So 83 was a reasonable number would you not agree? Sorry if I confused you, it was not my intent.</p>
<p>And yes you actually said that Queen's requires EC's. By saying that you implied that U of T doesn't. If that's not what you implied I apologize, but that's how I interpreted it. But the personal attacks were really unecessary. This is a board. Everyone here has a different opinion. I based mine on my experience going to school in Ontario and the business leaders and recruiters I have interviewed on education based topics for many years now. You might have made a strong argument that being in Toronto the recruiters I have interviewed might be biased toward Toronto based programs. With that I would have not disagreed.</p>
<p>Now you base your conclusions on a collection of student opinions I gather (or I am wrong? I wont assume this time). Does that make me right or you wrong or vice versa? No it means we have both come to conclusions from hearing opinions from other people and gathered our own opinions as such. </p>
<p>The only thing I would say is fact is that mid to low eighties means you will be considered for U of T NOT definitely accepted. I know for sure Queen's accepts less students than U of T so as such is more selective. It doesnt make U of T commerce admissions a joke as you said. Cause joke in the context that you used it was a very strong pejorative word. </p>
<p>Still, with these two facts it cannot be concluded that Queen's has a better program. After all, what qualifies as better: class size, prestige, internships, instructor experience, business dept endowment? US News tries to rank MBA schools in the U.S. scientifically, yet it is still controversial. Its all a matter of what the student is looking for. The original poster asked for advice. I mentioned both are good programs but Toronto itself was a better city. So my reply didnt even have anything to with Queens versus U of T per se, but rather had to do with the idea that living in Toronto might be better than Kingston. Now you may prefer Kingston. Should we start an endless argument about which city is better that will degenerate into personal attacks. Probably not. At least I hope not. Im already tired of hearing about Montreal versus Toronto.</p>
<p>I am quite well versed in business programs in Ontario, (at least every other month or so we do a story on it here in my section of the newspaper) if you want to go outside the province that is another matter all together. I won't assume I am an expert there.</p>
<p>And btw, for the record my comprehension skills are just fine. I hope I have explained my viewpoints and my expertise this time.</p>
<p>ivyleaguer - thank you for your complasiant post and i apologize for my cheap stabs but if you go back a few posts you will realize that you came off hostile.</p>
<p>First - I hate to bring this up but "doesnt" isnt a grammatical error, it is merely laziness and typographical at best. Confusing "know" and "no" is grammatical.</p>
<p>Second - Well I guess we just misunderstood each other and somewhat jumped the gun. I still stick to my original statement that 83 is not the cutoff and I believe you have agreed with me. Furthermore, you agreed that Queens is more selective which clears up one aspect of hte debate. But dont underestimate the selectivity of Queens Commerce. From my own experiences and interactions, Queens Comm and Schulich are the most difficult programs to get into. Ivey is next but UofT comm will honestly take you hands-down with an 85-85 avg whereas I know people who have been rejected at Queens with 94's etc.</p>
<p>Third - of the criteria you jus listed, I believe Queens is superior in class size, presitige, instructor experience, (im not sure about internships), and endowment (remember, undergrad is not affiliated with rotman and queens alumni are staunchly loyal)</p>
<p>Fourth - ive discussed the location thing with some people and the fact that uoft comm is located in toronto doesnt provide a tremendous advantage. First, recruiters are accustomed to making trips to Kingston and London by now because Queens and Ivey are powerhouses. Second, Schulich is top-dog in the city anyways. However, individual networking is defintely more abundant in toronto so i suppose that can tilt towards uoft's favor.</p>
<p>In light of "joke" - the canadian post-sec education system makes getting into university far easier than the US (relative to the quality of the institutions). If you have above an 80, you have a very legit shot at any university in Canada. If you have attended university in Canada you will know that getting an 80 isnt really a daunting task. UofT is one of the finest institutions in the world and anyone with above 78 can get into UofT (arts). I believe this corresponds with a left-wing agenda that is embraced in the great whtie north. Canada and UK and other semi-socialist nations try to maximize the number of students in university (the universities are after all, public) to fulfill a public agenda. The US is all business.</p>
<p>Anyways, both UofT comm and Queens Comm are good schools but its my personal opinion that Queens comm is superior...and i believe prestige follows suit.</p>
<p>aca0260, I said "doesnt" was misspelled not a grammar mistake. And yes, I type fast too and don't always like to proofread posts. Bad habit.</p>
<p>When I mentioned location I was comparing cities: mostly Kingston versus Toronto. Toronto being considerably more world class, by far. As far as programs go U of T Scarborough actually has a better one than St. George. There was a write up about it about it 2 years or so ago in U of Ts alumni magazine. They were talking about the capital expansion (Superbuild program). Scarborough is more co-op based and thusly makes living in Toronto a great location, if one is enrolled in the Scarborough program. Perhaps the only reason to attend that campus. While a U of T student can take courses I am not sure if the co-op option would be available to a non UTSC student. </p>
<p>Yes, Queen's is more selective, largely because the school overall has an enrolment cap at about 14000ish. (It's too late for me to go look up the exact number). So they are able to choose the highest marks of the incoming class. It doesn't mean more people are applying to the program than U of T's or even prefer it. I can look up the applications numbers if you wish, but again it's too late and I have an editorial meeting first thing in the morning. </p>
<p>Among the business leaders I interviewed, including executives from all major Canadian banks, U of T commerce was seen as top quality as any of the undergrad B.comm programs in Ontario. And, yes I do realize recruiters trek to Queen's. In fact, my friend in Queen's business was recruited to Telus right out of the school and is working at the Toronto offices of that company. At the same time she was the only one hired. The "other management trainees" in her pool came from U of T. I don't know how much that says, but I thought it was an interesting point. </p>
<p>Lets not talk about Canadas meritocratic view of universities now, thats another matter with entrance grades not dictating quality. Yes true. Too funny, I watched our education reporter being tortured over the reading the lengthly recent Rae report and its jab at higher institutions here, so there much more we could go into on that subject, but I digress. </p>
<p>Again, I never argued U of T was superior per se, just argued from information I have gathered Queens wasn't seen as superior to U of T, that's all -- and that the original poster couldn't do wrong with either one but if he or she wanted a great city while studying, then U of T was a better choice. </p>
<p>Now I am off to bed. Forgive any typos in advance.</p>
<p>Yeah I was going to mention that UTSC has a better biz program, BBA i believe, than UofT Com (st george)</p>
<p>And yeah Queens is definetly more selective, check the admit stats and the acceptance % will be lower.</p>
<p>I believe the rep between the programs are not very different to employers but going into college, most ppl will implore applicants to choose queens because it has more prestige etc.</p>
<p>i guess it all comes down to personal preference. I prefer smaller towns so I would enjoy kingston whereas someone else would enjoy big cities and would thus prefer toronto. both programs are high quality...after college it all comes down to individual abilities/character etc anyways.</p>