<p>But that's the thing, these are people who perhaps don't have the same qualifications on paper as non-URMs, but for many of them (not all, certainly) their accomplishments as they stand are extraordinary for their circumstances. <em>of course</em> there are URMs who take advantage of the system. nothing is perfect.</p>
<p>Clearly they could go to community college. But I truly believe that no one should have to go go CC unless they a)want to or b)are true slackers. When I said 'wouldn't have a chance at college' I meant 'wouldn't have a chance at x college' -- namely, an elite college. </p>
<p>if you don't believe in AA, i'm not going to try to change your mind -- it would be futile. but please, don't act like pro-AA people like myself are completely batty. i simply believe in AA as a beginning to stopping a vicious cycle. until our government decides to pledge more money to elementary education in poor areas, i don't see many other solutions.</p>
<p>For their circumstances? That sounds like wording in favor of socioeconomic affirmative action. I am for helping students who come from a poor family, who have to ask their counselors for fee waivers, who have to work to supplement their family incomes, and so forth. These students can be of any race.</p>
<p>Many students of all races have almost no chances to elite colleges. Regardless of race, if students perform poorly on standardized tests, have a low GPA, and barely participate in activities during high school, they basically have no hope. Why should some groups get preferential treatment and not others?</p>
<p>Most supporters of racial preferences aren’t “completely batty.” They might use arguments like “it’s just a tip for the equally qualified ‘under-represented’ minority” which don’t hold up empirically or arguments like “if you don’t look at race, you’re discriminating based on race” which don’t hold up logically, but they’re not completely batty.</p>
<p>""The joint University of Pennsylvania-Princeton report found that although immigrant-origin black students make up only 13% of the black population in the US, they now comprise 27% of black students at the 28 top US universities surveyed. And in a sample of the elite ivy league universities the figures were even more dramatic. More than 40% of black students in the ivy league now come from immigrant families. Overall, however, black students still make up only 6%-7% of ivy league students, while 12% of the general US population is black."</p>
<p>Wow Northstarmom, I didn't realize there were so many African/Carribean blacks in top colleges compared to African Americans. But I am still a bit confused about your position. Are you saying that immigrant blacks should be considered the same as whites and Asians in the college admissions process? Blacks make up 13% of the population, but only 6-7% of Ivy League schools; they are still underrepresented. I don't think immigrant blacks should be considered the same as Asians and whites. 13% (immigrant blacks in black population) vs. 27% (immigrant blacks in top colleges) is not as significant as the Asian population in the U.S. (4.2%) and the Asian population who have a bachelor's degree 44% (sorry these stats are from 2000, so they might be off, but you get the idea.) Blacks on the other hand make up 13% of the U.S. population, but only 17% have a bachelor's degree. I know that most immigrant families value education than African American families, so therefore children of immigrants tend to succeed more. But we are all black. Differentiating between immigrant blacks and African American blacks in admissions is ridiculous. Where I live there has always been a rift between blacks and immigrant blacks. Since I was born in Nigeria, but was raised here most of my life, I don't exactly fit in with recent immigrants (most black immigrants in my school just got here) because I have no accent nor do I speak my native language. I don't exactly fit in with most African Americans either because I don't speak Ebonics or listen to rap or hip hop. I am friends with Asians and African Americans and immigrants who don't fit these stereotypes. I have heard extreme opinions from both factions about this very topic. One Jamaican I know said that "top colleges seek immigrant blacks because they achieve more the African Americans ever can." When one of my immigrant friends and I were discussing Emory College at lunch an African American guy got upset and said that "African and Carribean immigrants are stealing our AA and we [immigrant] should all go back to where we came from."
Northstarmom, Comments like this are very disturbing to me. But they seemed to come back to me, when I read your post. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like you have a huge bias against black immigrants. To whites and other races, whether your last name is Johnson or Oluwajamii we are all black and come from the same beautiful continent, whether willingly or unwillingly. Division in the black community will only make us seem weaker. Since I am from Nigeria, West Africa, who knows Northstarmom, maybe we are distant relatives or maybe my quadruple great grandfather was married to your quadruple great grandmother and were separated by slave traders? I could be and African American mom, and you could be an immigrant teen, if the roles were switched. I know it sounds far fetched but history has a way of making us all connected. But don't misunderstand my example, I am not saying that African blacks and African Americans went through the same thing. According to my grandmother under British rule, Nigerians were restricted to menial agricultural jobs and usually could not get the same education as colonial whites. However, our men were not lynched, our women were rarely raped, and most importantly we were never property. But no one can disagree that people of African descent have been the most brutalized and punished race in the world. We are all black people living in the U.S. and should unite.</p>
<p>In a perfect world, every sub-category of blacks would be proportionately represented at top schools. Unfortunately, African immigrants tend to be more well-qualified than African-Americans. </p>
<p>Private colleges are for-profit institutions and they see no monetary incentive in AA solely for African-Americans.</p>
<p>It comes down to this: African immigrants and African-Americans look the same, and when a picture of a high achieving African immigrant student is shown on the homepage of Private U's website, it has the same "feel good" effect on a prospective applicant as a lesser-achieving African-American student's picture might. </p>
<p>Although you directed your post at Northstarmom, I felt that I should also respond.</p>
<p>The original point of AA was to raise the levels of representation in higher education and job opportunities to the levels of representation reflected in the country as a whole. Based on this, Asian Americans and white Americans do not benefit from AA because they are grossly overrepresented in higher education. Now, as even you pointed out, African/Caribbean immigrants are also grossly overrepresented in higher education. A recent article released by the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education (JBHE) stated that although African/Caribbean immigrants only make up 13% of the black population, they represent 40% of blacks at the nation's elite schools.
</p>
<p>I am in no position to say whether or not immigrants should still benefit from AA. However, I can say that if African Americans feel biased against African immigrants, who can blame them? The reason we were even brought to this country as slaves is because our African ancestors sold us. And if that wasn't enough, Africans give African Americans very little respect.</p>
<p>I go to Harvard where the African American-African immigrant representation problem is probably the worst in the country; 75% of the black kids there are recent immigrants. And, being in that environment, I have heard African immigrants make so many disparaging comments about African Americans. I have heard many Africans say that they "pity" us because we don't achieve to the level they do. And, many also distance themselves from us (in the exact same way that you did) by stating that "I don't exactly fit in with most African Americans either because I don't speak Ebonics or listen to rap or hip hop." </p>
<p>"Most African Americans" don't speak Ebonics and don't listen to hip-hop and rap. This is a prevailing idea that the media would like you to believe. Most African Americans are not intimidating, "ghetto," or loud. But that's what many people believe.</p>
<p>But why does that even matter if were true? Just because I like Jay-Z or Bubba Sparxxx and I don't say "dude" or "like" when I speak doesn't mean that I'm ignorant, or that I'm inarticulate, or that I'm unintelligent. I, as an African American female who listens to hip-hop and rap, may get overly excited and speak loudly and may occasionally speak in colloquial slang (Ebonics), have no problems interacting with and being friends with people who don't. So, why can't it go the other way, too?</p>
<p>You, yourself, said that we should unite as a black race, but why? You, like many Africans, have separated yourself from us because of supposed cultural differences. And, that is completely fine because when I look at an African or Caribbean who doesn't have the same interests as me, I think of them as simply someone who shares my skin color. I am no closer to them culturally, than I am to an Asian person or a white person.</p>
<p>All I'm trying to say is that you can't claim that we should all unite under our race in the same post that you separate us because of cultural differences...</p>
<p>hotpiece, okay, first of all, you did not read my entire post. This is what I said:
"Since I was born in Nigeria, but was raised here most of my life, I don't exactly fit in with recent immigrants (most black immigrants in my school just got here) because I have no accent nor do I speak my native language. I don't exactly fit in with most African Americans either because I don't speak Ebonics or listen to rap or hip hop. I am friends with Asians and African Americans and immigrants who don't fit these stereotypes."
Please pay attention to the last sentence! That totally contradicts what you said about me. ("You, like many Africans, have separated yourself from us because of supposed cultural differences") I do not distance myself from African Americans; I am friends with many intelligent African Americans in my honors/AP classes. I never said that native blacks were inferior to immigrant blacks like the person from your school ("I have heard many Africans say that they "pity" us because we don't achieve to the level they do. And, many also distance themselves from us") . If I did then why would I promote unity?
I am saying that African American and black immigrants share a common race. It is ridiculous for such a division to arise between people of the same race. And I know for a fact that most black people listen to rap and hip hop. (58% according to this survey:<a href="http://blackyouthproject.uchicago.edu/writings/fact_sheet_rap.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://blackyouthproject.uchicago.edu/writings/fact_sheet_rap.pdf</a>) The percentage is alot higher at my school. Maybe listening to rap music does not negatively affect you. But many black proffesionals correlate the violence and sex in many rap songs and videos to the lack of the importance of education in the black community. I do not "pity" black Americans for under performing. I have grown up in the U.S. and have seen many black students from my middle school with tremendous potential fall through the cracks and end up in jail or at an alternative school. No one can deny that the black community is plagued with problems. Bickering amongst ourselves about who was born where will not solve our problems. But standing together to improve Black America will. </p>
<p>I am sorry if black immigrants have insulted you or black Americans in general. But the insults go both ways. I have heard many black Americans rudely ask recent African immigrants if they live in huts, run around naked, or have AIDS; I have also heard African Americans mimic and make fun of African and Carribean accents. Like I said earlier, to whites and other races we are all black. I watched an Oprah special the other day about the stigma against darker skinned blacks. Oprah mentioned how whites used to generally treated light-skinned blacks better than dark-skinned blacks (the old inside slaves > outside slaves) and how this preference is prevalent in the black community. But in the end light-skinned blacks received the same
treatment under Jim Crow. In the same way, we are all of African descent living in America. We both suffer the same discrimination in white America. Yes we are culturally different, but that doesn't mean that we can't relate to one another. SO you don't have any African/Carribean friends that you can relate with?</p>
<p>I did read your entire post... And, I read the part about the stereotype. But, you said "I don't exactly fit in with most African Americans either because I don't speak Ebonics or listen to rap or hip hop." So, regardless of whether or not this is a stereotype, you implied that you believe it is true that most African Americans listen to hip hop and rap and speak Ebonics. And, black youth do not make up the entire black population. Although 58% of black youth may listen to hip hop and rap, most of the race does not (this includes all age groups). Within your comment, you implied that you are not friends with most of the African Americans at your school because they obviously have different interests than you. And the ones you are friends with are the African Americans that share similar tastes as you. If you really wanted to promote unity, then why aren't you friends with them in spite of your differing interests? I personally have friends who are Caribbean and African who don't listen to rap or hip hop, just like I have friends who are white and Asian and don't listen to rap or hip hop.</p>
<p>You said that you are friends with African Americans in your honors/AP classes, but what about outside of those classes? Are you friends with any African Americans that aren't in honors/AP classes? Probably not because you don't share the same interests as them. And as I said before, that is completely fine. You choose your friends for a reason and no one but you can dictate who your friends are. But in the spirit of unity, shouldn't you be able to relate to some of those African Americans (who listen to hip hop and speak Ebonics) by virtue of you being the same race?</p>
<p>All I'm saying is that I don't really understand how we are supposed to unite as a race, when we are all so culturally different. Many blacks are not interested in relating to Africans (hell, many blacks don't even feel a connection to Africa other than their skin color) and many Africans aren't interested in relating to blacks.</p>
<p>In addition, Africans and African Americans have very different mindsets in this country. As Northstarmom pointed out, African Americans have been psychologically damaged by years and years of discrimination (something that is not true of African immigrants- most of whom immigrated to this country after 1990). The JBHE even discussed this as a reason why African Americans underperform compared to African immigrants.
However, this may not be the case for you because you've grown up in America...But basically, the racism experienced by African Americans is sooo much worse than that experienced by Africans in this country.</p>
<p>"But basically, the racism experienced by African Americans is sooo much worse than that experienced by Africans in this country".
Really how so? White supremacists (and yes, contrary to popular belief, they still exist, come to southern GA if you don't believe me) equate black skin with ignorance and lack of education. They will not ask you where you are from before they discriminate against you. Being black in America is hard, end of story.
"All I'm saying is that I don't really understand how we are supposed to unite as a race, when we are all so culturally different. Many blacks are not interested in relating to Africans (hell, many blacks don't even feel a connection to Africa other than their skin color) and many Africans aren't interested in relating to blacks".
Yes, that is precisely the problem. If you are saying that both groups should stay in their own separate corners, then I just don't get it. Blacks need to band together and help solve OUR problems. This quote from the Harvard article sums up my thoughts.
"This is about the kids of recent arrivals beating out the black indigenous middle-class kids," said Professor Gates, who plans to assemble a study group on the subject. "We need to learn what the immigrants' kids have so we can bottle it and sell it, because many members of the African-American community, particularly among the chronically poor, have lost that sense of purpose and values which produced our generation."</p>
<p>The racism experienced by native black Americans is much worse because it has been going on for years (since we were brought to this country). Our ancestors lived it, we were born into, and then we live it. As the article says, this prolonged exposure to racism has had a negative psychological effect on African Americans. However, the same is not true for African immigrants because many Africans have not experienced this racism for nearly the same length that African Americans have. This is why it is easier for African immigrants to succeed in schools. I even read a recent study that said employers favor African immigrants more than African Americans (because of their percieved work ethic).
[quote]
If you are saying that both groups should stay in their own separate corners, then I just don't get it. Blacks need to band together and help solve OUR problems. This quote from the Harvard article sums up my thoughts.
[/quote]
What I'm saying is that African Americans have problems that are significantly different from the problems African immigrants face. And yes, African Americans need as much help as we can get to fix our problems (that help can come from Asians, Hispanics, or African immigrants), but just because I'm black and you're black doesn't mean we have to be friends or that I somehow know you.</p>
<p>In your original post you stated that you didn't understand where the bias against African immigrants came from. And I simply told you. And, although I am sympathetic to everything that is going on in Africa, I don't consider Africa my home. I don't feel any closer to an African immigrant than I do to a Hispanic person (in fact, in some cases I feel closer to the Hispanic who shares similar interests as me).</p>
<p>I don't care how white America views Tiearra Jackson and Chimdimma Okereke. I'm just saying that I don't feel anything towards Chimdimma, because she doesn't share the same interests as me, and she hasn't quite experienced my struggle. Her ancestors were not brought to this country as slaves (although her ancestors were probably the ones who sold mine). I do, however, feel a connection to Tiearra Jackson. We both listen to hip hop, etc...</p>
<p>I think the point that Hotpiece is trying to bring up (and she can correct me if I am wrong) is that regardless of skin color recent immigrants from Africa and the Carribean have had a vastly different experience as blacks in the US from African Americans with multigenerational roots in the U.S.</p>
<p>Even those who have been here 40 years have come after the civil rights movement and reaped those benefits. They have not suffered Jim Crow, their parents do not know what it is to attend school in a one room shack, where you were not allowed to attend school because you had to work the harvest in the rural south or know what it is to be beaten/killed/lynched for simply knowing how to read or being chased home from school when entering intergrated schools.</p>
<p>Unfortunately it is not as simple as We need to learn what the immigrants' kids have so we can bottle it and sell it especially for poor blacks wo have not broken the cycle of abject poverty, an inadequate eduactional system, blacks students getting thrown into special ed (and being labeled through out their K-12 education) because they are deemed behavior problems when the same behaviors exhibited by non-blacks or well off can get a diagnosis of ADHD.</p>
<p>There is plenty of research by Mary Waters & R.G. Rumbaut on the tension between recent immigrants from africa and the carribean and multi-generationa blacks.</p>
<p>Most of the research touches on the following points:</p>
<p>First-generation black immigrants to the United States have tended to distance themselves from American blacks, stressing their national origins and ethnic identities as Jamaican or Haitian or Trinidadian, ,etc.</p>
<p>The biggest dilemma facing children of black immigrants is the negative opinions voiced by their parents about American blacks as a result of the tension between foreign born and American-born blacks. ** This tension has helped to create a legacy of mutual stereotypes as immigrants see themselves as hard-working, ambitious, militant about their racial identities but not oversensitive or obsessed with race, and committed to education and family. They see black Americans as lazy, disorganized, obsessed with racial slights and barriers, with a disorganized and laissez faire attitude toward family life and child raising.** American blacks describe the immigrants as arrogant, selfish, exploited in the workplace, oblivious to racial tensions and politics in the United States, and unfriendly and unwilling to have relations with black Americans. The first generation believes that their status as foreign-born blacks is higher than American blacks, and they tend to accentuate their identities as immigrants (Rumbaut, 1994). </p>
<p>*Many Caribbean immigrants possess a wide variety of transferable skills which they the use once coming to the U.S. Some arrive with advanced educations and professional qualifications to take relatively well-paying jobs, which put them ahead of Native American blacks (e.g., Jamaican nurses). For their parents the concept of working hard, having a good work ethic and a strict discipline to succeed are they keys to upward mobility. * In a continued quest toward upward economic mobility and to live the ”American dream” of having a middle class (defined as having at least one parent with a college degree or a professional or business position) status and the accompanying lifestyle which includes home ownership and a good education for their kids, students, whose parents have achieve the middle class status and doing well, are more likely to send their children to either a parochial or magnet schools and not the substandard neighborhood high schools(Waters, 1994).</p>
<p>"They have not suffered Jim Crow, their parents do not know what it is to attend school in a one room shack, where you were not allowed to attend school because you had to work the harvest in the rural south or know what it is to be beaten/killed/lynched for simply knowing how to read or being chased home from school when entering intergrated schools" </p>
<p>Yes sybbie, I know this and emphasized this in my previous post:
"According to my grandmother under British rule, Nigerians were restricted to menial agricultural jobs and usually could not get the same education as colonial whites. However, our men were not lynched, our women were rarely raped, and most importantly we were never property. But no one can disagree that people of African descent have been the most brutalized and punished race in the world. We are all black people living in the U.S. and should unite".</p>
<p>"I don't feel any closer to an African immigrant than I do to a Hispanic person"
I never said that you should choose the immigrant over the Hispanic. If you have more in common then be friends with the Hispanic. I am not targeting you personally. I am talking about this generally. </p>
<p>"They see black Americans as lazy, disorganized, obsessed with racial slights and barriers, with a disorganized and laissez faire attitude toward family life and child raising"
I don't believe any of these things because I have met many black AMericans are the exact opposite of this description.</p>
<p>"Unfortunately it is not as simple as We need to learn what the immigrants' kids have so we can bottle it and sell it especially for poor blacks who have not broken the cycle of abject poverty, an inadequate educational system, blacks students getting thrown into special ed (and being labeled through out their K-12 education) because they are deemed behavior problems when the same behaviors exhibited by non-blacks or well off can get a diagnosis of ADHD".
It is not that simple. But promoting education like immigrant families do is what is important in helping the black community. When I grow up, I plan to either become a lawyer or start or work for a non-profit organization that helps inner-city youth. I am drawn to this profession because I empathize with the problems in the black community. I have gone to "black" schools and have seen these problems. Both of you agreeing to this problem (disunity) in black America and supporting this is very disturbing to me. Instead of arguing over who gets AA and whether or not you have a green card. We should stand together. It seems to me that neither of you is willing to put our differences aside. But alas, I guess it is hard to change people's opinions on issues. It doesn't matter how many posts I make.</p>
<p>Like I said before, I am completely in favor of standing with Africans in unity to help African Americans. In fact, I am completely in favor of standing in unity with any race to help correct the problems that plague black America. All I'm saying is that I (and many African Americans) don't feel any special connection to African immigrants. I'm not sure what you are getting at, but I am very willing to put our differences aside for the greater good. </p>
<p>You say that we should all unite to help each other because we are all black. While I agree that racial unity is good and all, I don't understand why it has to happen because we are all black. Just because I'm black and your black doesn't mean we have anything in common (the same background, the same aspirations, etc). So, why do blacks have a responsibility (your posts made it seem like it was our responsibility) to unite more than other races? The only thing African Americans and African immigrants have in common is their skin color. We have different cultures and different experiences in this country; the same way that I have a different culture and cultural experience from a Mexican American. So why must we unite together?</p>
<p>As I said in my last post, your original question was why African Americans feel that Africans don't deserve AA and why is there a bias against African immigrants. I answered your question, but you seem to be stuck on whether or not I am for unity in the black community. Trust me, I think the black community needs all the help it can get, but just because we're all black doesn't mean that we HAVE to unite (we should, however, unite because we are all Americans trying to make America a better place).</p>
<p>And koolmaria, I want you to realize that you are a minority within your race. Just because you have interacted with black people who aren't disorganized, lazy, etc. doesn't mean that other African immigrants have. I know that I have met many an African immigrant who doesn't fit stereotypes. However, my family (probably very representative of Black America as a whole) believes in these stereotypes, even when I explain to them that in my experience they aren't true.</p>
<p>hotpiece, you are entitled to your opinion. I never meant to say that blacks should unite more than other races. I am sorry if you got that idea in my posts. It's great to see how African Americans (well at least one) think about this issue. I have always seen the African American story as odd (but not in a bad way). You guys are descendants of Africans yet have no cultural or lingual tie to Africa. So I guess immigrant blacks and African Americans are different in some ways. However these differences should not hinder us from coming together. In the end we are all blacks (a minority) living in the U.S. It's been fun/educational talking to you about this. How do you like Harvard? And how would you describe how people of different races interact?</p>
<p>Yeah, immigrant blacks and African Americans have very little in common (besides their skin color).</p>
<p>I like Harvard, it's cool. The different races interact as well as they do anywhere else. I have friends of all races (as many people do) but all the different races are still accused of self-segregation. I guess too many Asians sit together at dinner and people are intimidated when they see a group of black kids together. But other than that, it is pretty good.</p>