<p>Rice is another great school, where you just apply to the university as a whole, not to the department. You can switch in and out of engineering. (The application does ask you to specify your college of interest - but it is not binding, and you don’t have to declare you major until end of sophomore year…)</p>
<p>Unless it’s changed recently, at UCSD one specifies that they want to go into the Jacobs School of Engineering for an engineering major. The college first decides whether the applicant will be accepted to UCSD and then they decide whether they’ll be accepted to the school of engineering. If they don’t make it into the school of engineering they can still go to UCSD (if accepted there). UCSD’s engineering majors rank very highly and its bio-E is especially ranked highly. One of my kids attended the engineering school there as a computer science major. </p>
<p>Of course many of the other colleges you mentioned are good as well but they may have different admissions procedures.</p>
<p>The reason I said earlier what I did about the CC course on ‘engineering’ is that the different types of engineering can be so different from one another that a single course may not be very helpful. From EE to Chem E to Computer Science to BioE to Structural E - they’re so different that a person might be very interested in one and dislike another completely but if for example he thought he might like EE and takes a CC course in it, it may be enough to help him decide whether he likes that one eng branch or not but it may not be helpful with deciding on the other eng branches. Discussing different engineering majors with actual engineers is great but you might have a hard time finding a variety so in addition he should consider whether he’s excited about the idea of developing a design for a bridge, or a circuit board, or an engine, artificial limbs, or new software applications, etc.</p>
<p>He doesn’t generally need any specific experience to be admitted to a college as an engineering major - not many kids in HS have engineering experience. A summer of C++ is more programming experience than a lot of CS majors have before college.</p>
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<p>Declaring or switching into the math or physics major at Berkeley is not hard (and an engineering major will have taken the same math and physics courses during freshman and sophomore years, including honors courses if desired). Math and physics are not among the Berkeley College of Letters and Science’s list of capped majors which require applying to declare: <a href=“http://ls-advise.berkeley.edu/major/majorlist.html[/url]”>http://ls-advise.berkeley.edu/major/majorlist.html</a></p>
<p>It is the subject matter at the junior and senior level that some students find to be hard. You can declare a math or physics major with a 2.0 GPA in freshman and sophomore courses, but that is probably not a good idea.</p>
<p>coolweather, Success in one field of engineering after studying another can, IMHO, be kind of hit or miss thing. No more so, however, than starting out initially in one field. If you are switching from mechanical to civil, then they are close enough that how well one did in the first is a pretty good indicator of how well you will do in the next. You taking very similar classes, so you wouldn’t loose a whole lot of ground. If the change is from mechanical to chemical, then all bets are off. Two wildly different fields. You have to go back in class standing. Also, no indicator from previous classes how well you will do other than how well you do with basic study skills.</p>
<p>In the schools where changing majors is more difficult, they will generally want you to take some of the classes in your new major to see how well you do before they fully accept you into the new department. At some of those schools, that can be a major challenge as you will be at the bottom of the priority list for your new department, so getting those classes is tough.</p>
<p>MIT admits to their college and not to any department. In fact you can not declare a major until you are a sophomore. Your freshman year is spent mostly meeting their general ed requirements (math, physics, chemistry, etc). MIT will ask for your department preference, but you are actually not part of that department until you are a sophomore. (Not sure, but with AP credit you may reach sophomore standing in your first year) You can also be an undeclared sophomore, although they do encourage you to choose a major as you do need to get started in your choosen major at that point.</p>
<p>MIT has a 4-1-4 school year; 4 months fall and spring terms with an "Independant Activities Period (IAP) in between (ie. the month of January). IAP is a time to take classes not for grades but for fun and is structured that way. Many departments will have seminar classes during IAP to introduce students to their departments. Good way to help choose a department (ie. major) I feel that IAP is one of MITs strong points for many reasons.</p>
<p>My S had (has?) this quandary too - science v. engineering. He was accepted to both types of programs, but decided it was better to start out in science at a LAC. Other than being undecided about types of engineering, he was also concerned that as a practical matter many people are unable to transfer out of engineering successfully because engineering gpas are generally lower. So far, with a high gpa and tons of science under his belt he’s kept his options open so far. He is considering a 3-2 engineering program. I admit that if he does that it would have been better for him to decide on engineering in the first place, but its hard when you just don’t know.</p>
<p>The reason I said earlier what I did about the CC course on ‘engineering’ is that the different types of engineering can be so different from one another that a single course may not be very helpful. From EE to Chem E to Computer Science to BioE to Structural E - they’re so different that a person might be very interested in one and dislike another completely</p>
<p>This is very true.</p>
<p>That’s why I think some/many College of Engineering programs have Freshman Engineering Programs (FEP) where the first semester the kids take a class that gives hands-on exposure to the various areas of engineering. Many kids will enter as xxxxE majors and by the end of the first semester realize that they’d like being a yyyyE major instead. </p>
<p>If your child ends up at a school that has a FEP and such an exploratory class, then he doesn’t have to worry about WHICH area of engineering he wants to pursue when he applies. He can get that exposure as a frosh and figure out which is his favorite. </p>
<p>And, as others have said, if your son starts as an engineering major, and then later changes to be a math, physics or other major, then most of the classes he would have taken will still apply to the new STEM major. The first semester generally includes Calc, Gen Chem, Frosh Composition, and another course or two no matter what STEM major you’re beginning.</p>
<p>My older son started as a engineering major and changed to being a math major the second semester…no big deal. He easily graduated on time. :)</p>
<p>This is an interesting discussion. My D2 is somewhat asking this question. </p>
<p>The way I see it, the choice between engineering and science is really a choice between a relatively rigid pre-professional program with very little flexibility to choose classes outside of engineering, and an liberal arts degree with the ability to take classes in a diverse array of subjects to become a highly educated individual. </p>
<p>It is a difficult tradeoff for a high school student to make. It seems like the ideal approach is to go to a school like MIT, Rice, Johns Hopkins, Rochester or Case, (may have missed a few) that has no real boundaries. However, it does seem rather easy to switch out of engineering at most schools. Penn is the one that seems a little scary. At Penn, you can switch to Arts and Science if you have a 3.0. So suppose you start out in engineering and find it too hard to get a 3.0. It seems like you are stuck there. Cornell seems similar. </p>
<p>3/2 Engineering programs seem good in theory, but it seems that few people actually execute them because nobody wants to leave their beloved college after just 3 years.
One approach that occurred to me, and I’d be interested in opinions, is if you went to a public university and just planned on double majoring and taking 5 years. It seems like 5 years at a place like Texas, Washington, Wisconsin or Illinois costs less than 4 years at a private university. You also don’t have to save all of your engineering classes to the end, which seems brutal. </p>
<p>Do public universities allow you to plan on taking 5 years to effectively do a 3/2 engineering program without having to save all of the engineering program to the end?</p>
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<p>Some public universities really put the pressure on the student to graduate as quickly as possible, since each student taking longer than needed costs extra in terms of subsidized tuition (and the subsidies from the state are shrinking every year as state budgets get cut).</p>
<p>For example, most academic divisions at Berkeley let you take as many credits’ worth of courses as you want if you graduate within 8 semesters of freshman entrance or 4 semesters of junior transfer entrance, but will not let you register once you have passed 130 credits (120 are needed to graduate) if you go over the 8 or 4 semesters. This means that you can load up on 10 semesters’ worth of courses in 8 semesters if you are willing to overload on the courses each semester, but many students hesitate to do that (especially with high work lab courses in science or engineering).</p>
<p>Texas gives a tuition rebate if you are in in-state student who graduates having taken no more than the 3 more than the minimum credits needed to graduate in your major.</p>
<p>Interesting UCB. It’s something worth looking at. </p>
<p>I can see public schools limiting the instate subsidy, but I would think that they want OOS students to stay longer since they are making money on them.</p>
<p>I skimmed through this thread, so I apologize if it’s already been mentioned, but some colleges/universities offer summer engineering programs/camps for HS students. My son attended a week-long, live-on-campus program after his sophomore year of HS at one of our state universities. They attended various seminars in several different engineering departments, taught by university professors, and designed little race cars in teams using Solid Works, etc. It was good exposure to engineering as well as a little taste of life on a college campus.</p>
<p>I’m sorry…I’m with a couple of the above posters…find a school or two or three or four…where this student can switch in or out of engineering with no problem. Students change their minds frequently about majors in college.</p>
<p>Also…not saying the OP doesn’t know her son, but the SON really should be in the driver’s seat on his college major.</p>
<p>And there are tons of good colleges out there with excellent engineering programs that are far less competitive than the top ones on this kid’s list. Just saying.</p>
<p>If he’s applying to Stanford, he should consider Santa Clara University where I KNOW you can switch into engineering 
And if he’s really a competitive candidate for those other top schools listed (Stanford, etc), he might actually garner some significant merit aid there too.</p>
<p>Agree that Case Western should be on his list as well.</p>
<p>According to the OP, the son DID say that he was considering engineering. I think it’s a perfectly appropriate role for a parent to get educated on what the options are and where there is flexibility. Many HS kids don’t have the perspective or even the time that their parents do to do this research. </p>
<p>I would also advise caution about less competitive engineering programs. There are otherwise “good” colleges with engineering programs that are really “engineering-lite” and do not, in my opinion, adequately prepare their students to compete with students from the more competitive programs. A perfect example is Tufts. In my field, EE, I just don’t find Tufts graduates at all competitive with graduates of many other schools that those students could have easily attended such as Illinois, Michigan, Purdue, Penn State or even Northeastern. I think perhaps that they do get a broader liberal arts education, but it seems to be at the EXPENSE of engineering rigor. I am only aware of this because I work in the Boston area and see the striking difference during interviews. I suspect there are many more “engineering-lite” colleges like Tufts. </p>
<p>It’s potentially a valid tradeoff to make as long as you know you are making it. I’m not sure that most of their students are aware that they are making that tradeoff.</p>
<p>sbjdorlo -</p>
<p>I have degrees in both EE and physics - most of the early classwork was very similar, way back when.</p>
<p>But my main comment is about taking a CC class. For most kids (including my own kid) I am a big fan of CC. In fact, my own kid is taking EET at a CC and is taking robotics. So don’t get me wrong, I’m a big supporter of CC.</p>
<p>But given what I know about your kid, I think he might be bored and might not get a good idea of the type of thing he will be studying at thecuniversity. Maybe he could consider taking an actual engineering class at the regular college. When I got my EE degree, everybody had to take a class out of their discipline - sort of a survey of another area. At UCLA I think EE100 is a course like this - many schools probably have them. </p>
<p>So he could try an intro circuits class, a class in thermodynamics, or maybe a class in basic CE Statics and Dynamics. Another option is a course in numerical methods - where you learn to develop algorithms for approximating solutions to problems you can’t solve in the typical way. It’s tied in with programming. I think this is something of value for most engineers. Assuming he hasn’t already had this class.</p>
<p>Then again, robotics at the CC will be hands-on and probably fun.</p>
<p>And I tried to read the whole thread, but forgive me if I’m repeating someone.</p>
<p>There seems to be a consistent thread here, that the engineering major is tougher than a math/physics major. That’s a shame. How did we dilute down math/physics? Engineering is easy. Math/Physics is hard.</p>
<p>IP…I’m not sure the engineering major is “tougher” but the course of study for four years is a bit more rigid than a straight science/math major. Engineering majors have a very stringent sequence of courses they are required to take…beginning in their freshman year. If they miss those courses or lose the sequence somehow, it can be VERY difficult to get on track and even to graduate within four years.</p>
<p>Just FYI…my husband was a physics major who switched to engineering (taking a rather round about journey in between). He might have just as well been starting from scratch as he needed to fulfill the engineering sequences IN ORDER. It has nothing to do with the difficulty of the subject matter.</p>
<p>DS is a rising junior and just started investigating colleges. He is a heavy math/science kid who thinks he wants engineering. I found this page on Purdue’s website, which explains the various kinds of engineering and what you would do with them. We found it really helpful.</p>
<p><a href=“https://engineering.purdue.edu/ENE/Academics/FirstYear/majors[/url]”>School of Engineering Education - School of Engineering Education - Purdue University;
<p>He excels in liberal arts classes in HS, but is just not interested. I do want him to end up at a college where there are options (engineering –> some sort of science). So far, he’s liked Lehigh, JHU, CMU (local rep presentation), Miami (FL). For comparison sake, we’re going to check out RPI this summer. It’s still early and we have a lot more research to do. But I’ve already found this thread really helpful.</p>
<p>Suggestion to the OP (that I think was already made)…have the son shadow some engineers to see what the job is like. He may …or may not find that he likes the actual job prospects. Having said that…there are TONS of different kinds of engineering jobs and even within the types, there would be different things to see/do depending on the employers. </p>
<p>But it would be a start…and the son might find a mentor within the engineering field to bounce ideas off of.</p>
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<p>As someone with degrees in Physics and EE I can attest to the fact that this was not true in my case. I found phyiscs more difficult. Of course, I was very young when I got my physics degree and hence had more distractions. I think all of these areas of study are of comparative difficulty.</p>
<p>Before I decided to go back and get an EE degree I took a “Physics” course in electronics based on the book “The Art of Electronics” - by Horowitz and Hill. I think it was written for physicists to learn enough electronics to set up their experiments. It was extremely hard and fast paced. </p>
<p>I think the main issue is that there may be more variability between Physics and Math programs at different schools. Because of the ABET certification, the engineerking curriculum is a bit more standard. And as a result, you have to take a lot more classes. So it’s more an issue of quantity than difficulty.</p>
<p>I am an engineering major myself. So I know all about the strictness of the coursework. But what surprised me is some talk about how the bar is higher for entry at the engineering schools.</p>