Quitting piano? (likely BME student)

College Majors Music Major
1

At the risk of sounding totally heliocopter-y, I have a question: If my kid desires to one day direct her own choirs, but is stalled on piano skills and not finding advancement or joy in prepping for lessons, do I let her quit piano?

She is likely headed down the BME path, but I anticipate that may turn in to a dual-degree program where she ends up teaching Math and/or English to pay her bills, and directing her own choirs as a passion. I’ve insinuated that every day she doesn’t practice now might be more than double the practice time later - but you know, talking with teenagers at the end of the school year can be frustrating at best.

So I’m gearing up for the discussion later this summer. She plays very musically, especially for having ~2 years of lessons/practice. Despite being able to play through a choral warm-up, I suspect she still has a good ways to go before hitting proficiency. We’re paid up for lessons through the summer. Do I let her quit after August? Let her quit but start searching out a new teacher? Or just figure this mood will also pass and insist she continue for now?

Interested in your experiences -

2

It would help to know how old your daughter is.

Offhand, I would say yes, let her quit. The motivation really should come from her. (That said, my son once wanted to quit clarinet, and when I said that was fine, he put his hands on his hips and in an outraged voice said “Mom, you’re not supposed to say that!” I would say, though, that from that moment on he was more committed to clarinet, not less, because it was his choice to stay.

3

“It would help to know how old your daughter is.”

Good point! She is a rising junior, high school class of 2018.

4

If it was my kid who thought they might go a BME route, I would have a pleasant conversation. Not at all accusatory, but problem solving. Piano ability (even simply gaining enough skill to pass piano proficiency requirements) could end up being important to her and now, rather later in college, is a good time to develop basic skills. Remind her that you want to help her keep options open for the future.

It also sounds to me like there might be a problem with either the teacher, or the teacher’s approach to your D. Try asking your D about the lessons - does the teacher primarily take on young beginners, not older students like your D who might need a different approach or, other end of the spectrum, is the material too challenging so she is discouraged? Does your D understand that two more years of lessons and practice now could be a big help in making decisions about college major? If she can agree to commit to continuing the lessons and practice, she may be building opportunities.

Considering the teacher - with an older, less advanced player who might be interested in BME, I’d look for a teacher who has the ability to go beyond moving through a method book. For instance, your D should be studying things like scales and arpeggios (both for technique and for passing proficiency exams), easier accompaniments including hymns and chorales, sight reading, basic chording patterns so she can put an simple improvised accompaniment with a melody and, of course, piano literature appropriate for her stage of development. Maybe your D is already doing this, but if the teacher is unaware of your D’s interests, perhaps it would be helpful to have a conversation with the teacher about her ultimate goals.

I don’t think you are helicoptering at all. Your D’s piano skill, given her possible professional interests, is a valid parental concern. You want the best background for her, but this is a concern that a young person might not fully understand. Quite frankly (this from a musician and parent who raised kids that turned out to be music professionals) practice is generally not fun, especially if you feel you aren’t making progress. Your D may just be stuck in this trap - sadly, we don’t often see skill developing week to week. It usually takes weeks (or months) of practice till - Bang - we’ve hit a new ability level. You can google “plateau”, “music learning”, "“music practice progress” if interested and see if any of this info fits the situation.

Another thought, does she currently have a choir director that she could discuss piano skills with? It might be helpful to hear what the professionals in her life think she needs or doesn’t need to pursue her goals.

5

MomofAdult,
I disagree with your comment that practice is generally not “fun”. Practice might be frustrating at times and maybe not be going the way a student wants. But not “fun” makes it sound as though it is some sort of chore. And the musicians I know do not feel that way about practice. I agree with your comment about how hitting a plateau can be discouraging. Kids who are motivated to excel at music are often more motivated than ever to work through those plateaus in order to to get to the other side. Sometimes a new teacher, a new approach, even listening to a new type of music can help re-engage a student and help them over a plateau.

As for the original poster, I also think you have to be open to the fact that your child’s path might shift and alter. As a Junior in HS she is still figuring out who she is and who she wants to be. There are only so many hours in the day. You mention a dual-degree, teaching and other interests. She sounds as though she has a broad range of talents. I would not try to fit her into a box just yet but listen to her and allow her to be your guide. She might surprise you with where she ends up. A child who is leading a choir might become a team-leader in a business. She might become an arts advocate. She might become a creative working in television. Right now she might say she wants to be a teacher but these things change. Make sure she knows that there is a huge range of careers and jobs out there.

So one way to channel your helicopter-y inner parent is to open doors rather than close them. Maybe music education is to limiting. Maybe she needs to re-iginite her motivation by exploring new goals and new ideas.

FYI I work with parents who have kids who are struggling big-time. Often these kids have lost all motivation and have given up. One exercise I ask the parents to do is to think back to when their child was 7. Who was that 7 year old? What did you as the parent see them growing up to be? Who did they say they wanted to grow up to be? There you might find clues as to what to expose your child to or ways to reignite a passion that seems to be waning.

6

Does she play another instrument? Will she audition on piano or something else?

Is she in a choir or does she admire a school choir director? Where did the BME and choir director ideas come from?

She must understand the importance of piano for any music study, including theory, and for what you say is her career goal at the moment. If she understands these things clearly, but wants to quit, then I would allow her to quit. She is getting near the age when she will be making many decisions on her own. She can end up applying to a university or liberal arts school and exploring majors her first two years. If she still wants music, all is not lost, she can major in music and do music education later. When she finds her own motivation, she will practice and stick with piano.

I have seen some negative scenarios in which a parent nagged about piano, some resulting in very talented students quitting as soon as they left home. Net result was end of piano, and a problem in the relationship between parent and child.

My own child started piano late when she became interested in music in late high school. She hated the method book type of lessons so the teacher gave her more interesting contemporary classical pieces to play. She was intrigued by theory and this teacher also geared lessons to that and to occasionally composing. I never suggested piano to her: she was the one nagging. She was barely proficient in piano during undergrad music major, which did make things hard. But she is now in a doctoral program in music- stuck with it!

You could offer help in finding a different teacher with a different approach, as others have said. A respected adult musician or director could talk to her about getting over the hump of frustration, if that appeals to her. But overall, I think, “developmentally,” motivation needs to come from her and she needs to show some eagerness.

I don’t know how long your daughter has had this career goal, which is pretty specific for her age. It is fine for her to stop thinking about career for a couple of years or more and explore. There are many ways to study music. It sounds like preparing for auditions could be stressful for her, unless she has been playing another instrument at a high level for awhile. She can major in music for a BA program without auditions.

And there are many interesting majors in college, obviously. They may not have a direct job application, in the vocational sense, but lead to opportunities in many fields and grad or professional schools.

I would encourage her to continue if she wants, tell her that at her age these decisions are hers to make, and also encourage broad exploration in late high school and early college, with no pressure to decide on a career right now. During college she can volunteer, intern or work and participate in extracurriculars that will help guide career aspirations.

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SatcJip, I will not get heavy into music learning psychology, but just let me say that the hour I spent yesterday (and the hours I’ve spent for the past week) learning a very difficult contemporary work was definitely a “chore”! Not that the end result will be a chore when working in the full ensemble, but right now, I can think of many things I’d rather do! Practice is a part of life for us professionals and serious students, but we don’t often sit around “enjoying our music” as some have suggested to me. I agree that it is fulfilling to see your skills grow and to learn new rep, but this does not come without work and, sometimes, at the expense of other interests. For professionals, practice is part of our work - our job duties, if you like. If I couldn’t stand doing it, I’d be in another field.

I definitely agree with the suggestions that continuing piano is not worth a battle fought by the OP. If it comes to that, I also would allow the student to make her own decision.

8

@cmb1828 - lots of good advice here! After lurking here and reading advice I realized my son needed to start piano lessons if music was his goal.

@compmom I enjoyed your story about your child starting piano late. Mine is a rising senior who finally found time to start piano lessons a few months ago, even though we got a piano a while back. He knows it will be important for college and after and will help him with AP Music Theory next year. He was lucky enough to find a teacher who is a pro on DS’s instrument now but whose first instrument is piano and who teaches both. His teacher is teaching him from a music school prep/theory perspective and that is really helpful. Fortunately DS is enjoying it more than he expected to.

As an aside, I took 7 years of piano as a kid and quit in middle school because I didn’t have time for band and piano, so I’m thinking I will take it up again! I will really miss having music in the house when DS goes off to college.

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I would suggest you reframe the conversation from quitting to taking a break. It doesn’t have to be black and white. If your child is looking at it that way, fine. It’s normal to be more dramatic about things at that age. But as the adult in the room it’s probably worth a conversation with your child about the pros and cons of taking a break. Why does she want to “quit” and why do you want her to not “quit”. Is there middle ground? Does it really matter if she “quits” for a semester? And what’s wrong with her falling behind and having to work hard to overcome her own decision? Can you have confidence that she’ll do that if necessary? These are things to think through for yourself. As children get older you do need to detach from outcomes. It makes discussion and guidance easier if you are less vested in the outcome and more vested in guiding her in problem solving. All parents learn this the hard way - I did!

And there is always the chance when it is truly her call (and not you insisting) the mood will pass.

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@Momofadult Oh totally understand what you are saying about practice. Practice was not always “fun” for my son but he also was motivated to practice and work at it because he loved music so much. You are working on that piece because you want to succeed at it, not because you feel it is something everyone else wants you to do. There is a difference. I have seen many children “turned off” by music because parents FORCE them to practice and continue on an instrument. Sometimes a child needs a break from an instrument. Sometimes they need to shift instruments or even shift the type of music they are playing. My son who just graduated from conservatory started of taking piano lessons as a small child. He didn’t last long. In 5th grade he started taking mostly classical Cello lessons at school. But it was not until he started the electric Bass (his older brother convinced him to drop the Cello for the electric bass because he played Jazz guitar) that my son suddenly found his groove with music. A few years later he begged me to get him an upright Bass and find a teacher and the rest is history.

So as I suggested sometimes as parents we have to look at our child and tease out what the next door to open is.

11

All I can say is that my daughter said she hated us and we were horrible parents for letting her quit (in the heat of the moment, but still). She’s playing catch-up right now in preparation for starting her music degree in the fall. If your daughter is going into music Ed, then skilled piano playing is absolutely essential.

We visited St. Olaf and sat in on one of Anton Armstrong’s rehearsals, and what stood out to me was that he worked with them from behind the piano. He is a really skilled player, playing parts and full accompaniments effortlessly. My daughter said she’s never heard a choir so “on pitch” at all times (believe me, she knows because she hears pitch issues that many others don’t notice). He’s known as one of the greatest choir directors, and I think his method using the piano directly (rather than relying on an accompanist) is one of the reasons. It greatly increases the efficiency because he’s not having to communicate what he wants the accompanist to do when working a piece.

12

Thanks for all the great stories and advice! I’m definitely going to follow her lead, but try to help her keep her options open.

A bit of additional background - if she goes the route of an auditioned program, voice will be her primary instrument. She takes voice as well, and has been part of a regional children’s choir program for years. She just loves choral music and what goes into bringing a group of voices together to create something more. Her piano teacher has been doing a good job of tailoring lessons to her interests and the fact that she was old for a beginner, with a lot of chord progression and those types of things to build her base. Maybe she is just frustrated now that they’re doing more with traditional technique.

@choirsandstages - what an interesting experience, and really good point about rehearsals. Thinking back on various children’s choir rehearsals, I can see how that would contribute. Dr Armstrong once worked with my daughter’s choir as part of a clinic - they were the guinea pigs, so to speak - but as he was teaching the attendees, he didn’t play at all. I’m sure she’d love to see that also.

Thanks again. You all have been really helpful

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For the OP: I had a situation with one of mine that is sort of the reverse of your situation. I’d always wanted this kid to get involved with a terrific Boys Choir in our area. No interest. I mentioned it several times along with all the goodies he could partake in - choir trips to England, nice group of kids, etc. No go. I dropped it and didn’t insist since his plate really was full. Well, said kid has grown up and picked up some church organ work as a sideline. Boy, is he kicking himself for not taking advantage of the choral training in that childhood/adolescent opportunity. He’s now paying for voice lessons and looking into getting some choral conducting training. I sort of wish I’d driven him over to a boy’s choir rehearsal or two when he was a kid.

It is sometimes quite hard to know as a parent when to insist and when to let the kid take total responsibility for the decision. In an instance like yours where she is gaining basic skills that could be useful, I think I personally would more inclined to strongly encourage her to continue. If she goes the music route, she will never regret the time she spent on piano, but if she quits, she may regret she didn’t try harder before her college years. And, by her senior year, interests might be more defined and the situation can be reevaluated.

If it helps at all, it is very common for college music majors when required to take piano class or lessons to pass the proficiency requirements to find the course frustrating. They are proficient on their own instruments or voice, but suddenly at a beginner or barely better level on piano and it is discouraging to have to work hard for basic skills so far below their other musical accomplishments. I’ve also seen this with adult beginners who start up with great enthusiasm and commit lots of time to practice, but quite soon the learning slows down, skills come slower and they get discouraged and quit. She may be one of those who started out at a fast pace, but for whom this will slow down as the music becomes more difficult.

14

I think the picture changes with your more complete information on your daughter. I was concerned about a kid wanting an audition program with only two years of piano and thought it might even be good to redirect her :slight_smile:

With voice as her primary instrument, and music a bigger part of her life than initially conveyed, I would say try to find a way for her to feel motivated, herself, to continue. And maybe a break is a good idea, to refresh.

I have another question. I really don’t know the answer myself. Is music education the best or only path for a vocalist who wants to lead choirs?

Would your daughter be interested in doing vocal performance alone for undergrad years, then seeing what comes next later? Is she thinking of BME mainly because of career concerns?

I would also ask if she wants a BM/conservatory/music school or would prefer a BA program (non-audition mostly). Talented musicians do go both routes. A BA program could include lessons on or off campus (often for credit and funded by the school) and performance in extracurriculars or off campus. A music major includes theory, aural skills, composition, music history, ethnomusicology, technology and so on and can provide a background for grad school. Some students continue to study voice or an instrument without majoring in music at all, with access to the right resources, and then go on to grad school or performance.

Most art forms have boring technical training and humps of frustration to get through. I recently took a series of art classes that was so fun- no technique, and we could do what we wanted. The teacher is now reining it in and we are focusing on drawing, perspective and so on, and I had the fleeting idea I would quit! Dance students often resist ballet as their “foundation.”

Your daughter is probably too young to decide on a career at this point. That can go two ways. She can move ahead with an open attitude about what she wants to do for school and work (and worrying about work can come later, it really can), and leave her piano lessons. If she reverts to music ambitions, especially choir director, she will play catch up the way other posters here have described.

If she has a genuine, mature, well-tested ambition to lead choirs, then piano will certainly be needed, and it would be easier to do it now, but she can, again, try to gain those skills later. Most schools have remedial piano so to speak.

Someone mentioned St. Olaf. That is a very flexible and quality option. The BA and BM both offer teaching credential preparation. Students often enter as BA students and then transition. It looks very flexible. Many double major. And they have a choral music program for undergrads. http://wp.stolaf.edu/musicadm/

Finally, you may have seen this: many find it clarifying over time.
http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/conservatory/admissions/tips/doubledegree.html

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@compmom I think you bring up many important points. I talk BME because that is where her head is now, but thete are other paths. Of the 3 choral directors she works with, 2 are at school and predictably BME. Her children’s choir director has a bachelor’s degree in church music (or some such) and will have a master’s in choral conducting once he submits his thesis.