Recommendation question

Applying to College
1

I need some recommendation advice.

My S24 asked his Calc AB teacher for a recommendation. She said she would be happy to write one, but that she would have to “be honest” when filling out the ranking of his organization/work habits. I’m not sure what the ranking even means but it sounds like there is some numerical 1-10 sort of ranking system for different categories. He said she was sort of? smiling and maybe? joking when she said it. To me, this is a big red flag.

He gets along well with two social studies teachers he has this year and asked them both and they both said yes but also advised him it would be better to get one STEM teacher. I see this point especially because he is interested in Economics.

The Calculus teacher has been a great teacher, but she is a more serious teacher and so he doesn’t connect with her as much (he likes to joke around). Her assessment of his work habits is also correct - he is not the hardest worker and does not do all his homework. However, he loves math and it comes easily to him (he has a high A) and I think that she appreciates that he finds joy in math like she does.

So, questions I am hoping to get advice about…
Is this usual that a teacher would agree to write a recommendation and then point out negative attributes on the recommendation? I assumed recommendations should be wholly positive.
Should he ask the teacher more specifically what she means?
Should he ask a different teacher?
Should he wait and ask his senior year math teacher?

Thanks!

2

I think it’s bad form to offer to write a recommendation letter if you’re going to potentially negatively impact a student. I would pick someone else.

I am not a teacher, so haven’t written LORs - but I’ve had several instances where a former employee has requested me to serve as a reference. For those I could not honestly endorse, I have politely declined their request.

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3

Red flag for me too, and I would ask the teacher to clarify if your S is comfortable doing that. Basically, the question is ‘can you write me a positive LoR, and if not I’ll ask someone else.’

He might also ask his HS GC about this, and seek clarity if the school and/or this teacher uses an LoR form with numerical rankings on it (not common IME).

I would also hope that a teacher who couldn’t write a positive letter would decline, but I know some don’t, sadly.

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4

Thanks for the reply. I also wonder why she agreed to write it if she would include things that could negatively impact him. He of course thinks “it will be fine!” so I just wanted to see if my gut feeling was correct.

5

Yes, I’ve asked him if he would clarify with her about what she meant and he said he won’t because then “she’ll hate me.” Good idea to ask the guidance counselor though.

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6

I teach high school seniors and write letters of recommendations. I can’t speak for all my colleagues but the vast majority of us would spin the seemingly negative facts into something positive, such as “although xxx is not the brightest student but he gives his best effort”, “xxx sometimes must prioritize family members’ health/wellbeing above school work”, or “xxx has lower than expected test grades during Tennis season but works hard to catch up later”. For a student who can maintain a good grade without putting much effort, I usually write something like “xxx demonstrates easy and quick grasps of the main concepts” followed by no mention of work ethics.
Letters of recommendation are usually positive; however, including the kids’ shortcomings and minor weaknesses along with explanations/contexts feels more sincere (in my opinion), unless it’s for a student who is nearly flawless.

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7

I would be curious to know if the HS GCs have bought off on this?

8

Here is The Common Application teacher recommendation form:
https://commonapp.my.salesforce.com/sfc/p/#d0000000eEna/a/1L000000c2RP/jCF_oapQUBYs2mkGJ9JcGoKfgk9wjteMktpD_qF5Mow

Note that it asks the teacher to checkbox rankings of the student versus others the teacher has encountered in various aspects.

The ranking options are “no basis”, “below average”, “average”, “good (above average)”, “very good (well above average)”, “excellent (top 10%)”, “outstanding (top 5%)”, and “one of the top few encountered in my career”. There are 15 aspects plus “overall” to be ranked. This is in addition to a short written evaluation.

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9

I have been given recommendation forms that have required that I assign a numerical rating on a number of attributes. Where there is a free form response section, I highlight the good. But that hard rating is unavoidable on many forms.

While I am not a teacher, I have done enough of these that I care about being a credible source so while I will be very positive in the free form section, I would not say someone is something they are not. Fwiw, I suspect the less positive things matter less if they are consistent with how the applicant portrays themselves.

If your son describes himself as someone who throws himself whole-heartedly into what gives him joy and continues to work on imposing structure on himself, this will be a good recommendation. AOs like to see that a person knows who they are. A kid who describes himself as a leader and who is characterized by teachers as quiet and thoughtful is more likely to seem out of touch.

10

He should be grateful that his teacher just told him point blank that she will not be able to rate him highly on organization and work habits. He needs to consider whether he can get a better letter from any other math or science teacher that he has had in high school. And yes, if there is no other math or science teacher whom he’s already had who could write him a better letter, he would need to work like a dog early in senior year, and then ask in mid October, 6 weeks into the semester, if one of them could write him a letter if he is planning on submitting early applications, in mid November if not.

Also, does something need to be done to address his organization and work habits? Organizational coaching? ADHD eval and meds? Peer support? Counseling intern support through the school? This may be your last chance before college to get him some help, if it is needed.

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11

Just like some counselors, many teachers have their own form. Bullet point LoRs have become popular because they are easier (for both counselors and teachers).

Also just like some counselors do on the common app rec (if they are using it), some teachers also leave the various numeric ratings blank.

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12

It’s great he said that because now you have a teachable moment. In his journey to and thru adulthood there are going to be many times when he ought to have uncomfortable conversations and ducking them is seldom the best approach.

That all said, IMO he should ask someone else. I can’t imagine any scenario in which the teacher he already asked is not intending to give him low marks in the areas she mentioned, and furthermore she had the integrity to tell him that directly. A lot of teachers would just smile and say “sure”.

Every student asking for recs should ask the teacher(s) whether they can write a positive letter. In the book “The Gatekeepers” by a NYT reporter that shadowed the admissions committee at Wesleyan for a year is a real-world example of a bad rec. When the student asked for a rec she undoubtedly assumed it would be positive, but here is what she got:

There were times, I must admit,that I thought Tiffany might have taken a stronger interest in mastering the material in our course. When I saw that Tiffany was a National Merit Semi-Finalist I was a bit surprised. While clearly bright and competent, I had seen in Tiffany neither an exceptional skill for testing nor a particular affinity for the subject.

This could have been avoided if the teacher had been asked if they would write a strong rec. The student did not get in.

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13

He actually has pretty decent organization and work habits. He makes a conscious time management decision to not do homework when he understands the material well and the homework is a tiny percentage of the grade. He spends the time he saves doing other school work or outside of school activities - sports, music, etc. (not video games). I think he has great work habits for life for getting a lot done well, but I definitely see how this does not translate to a good recommendation from the teacher whose homework you are choosing not to do.

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14

Ah, I get it. Honestly, I cannot blame him for having prioritized his most important work and ECs over busy work homework that didn’t matter much for him. Well, it came back to bite him in the butt now, since what he didn’t realize is that not doing the homework for material he’d already mastered is an insult to the teacher who bothered to assign it (and even grade or review it), even though he probably did very well on exams in the class.

This will not fly in college. He won’t be able to just not do a problem set because he feels that he already has mastered the material. But of course, since problem sets are a big part of the grade in STEM classes, he’ll do them, I’m sure.

Under the circumstances, he should just be absolutely perfect in his STEM classes in first semester of senior year, be as charming and conscientious as possible, participate actively and eagerly, stop by after class to ask questions about the material, or about more advanced material related to what they’re doing in class, just everything he possibly can do to make the teachers adore him, and then ask them for a rec in mid fall.

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15

One of the questions on the Common App is “How long have you known this student and in what context?”

Colleges understand students select teachers they believe will write the strongest recs. What message does it send to admissions if a student appears to think their best letter comes from a senior-year teacher they’ve only had for a few weeks or part of a single semester?

This is also why I feel the OP’s son should ask for a rec from a different teacher in a class he’s already taken. Colleges may very well figure the letter from the Calc teacher is the best the kid thought he could get someone to say about his organization/work habits.

16

Actually, it is often the case that grading in college is skewed even more toward exams and projects than weekly homework.

17

I said problem set, not weekly homework. I don’t believe that weekly homework assignments with very little if any weight in the grade are a feature of college courses. I know that problem sets are a substantial part of the grade in many STEM classes.

18

Problem set = weekly homework in my (STEM) experience.

Projects, on the other hand, can consume substantial amounts of time, and not keeping up with them can result in unmanageable cramming later.

19

Of course, if he has a better option, he should take that. But I’m assuming that if he had a better option for a STEM teacher rec, he wouldn’t have asked this teacher, the one who was unhappy with his having not prioritized doing the homework assignments. I mean, who would go to a teacher for a rec after having blown off the homework, if they had a better option?

It’s something that a lot of students don’t think about, until the beginning of senior year. Teachers are human - you cannot blame them for reacting this way when a kid who all year sent them the message that their homework assignments weren’t important, then asks them for a recommendation.

I feel bad for the student, too, because I totally understand a student who is extremely busy with other work and ECs prioritizing those over the busy work, especially if they have already mastered the material and can demonstrate it on the exam. If that student can get a recommendation from an AP science or math teacher in fall of senior year based upon two months of excellent high performance, I think that it should be okay. It may even be a teacher who already taught them earlier on, or with whom they’ve had contact through an EC. But even if the teacher has to check that they’ve only known the kid for 2 months, it’s still a heck of a lot better than a rec from a teacher who has flat out warned them that they’re going to say something about the undone homework assignments!

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20

This is not your case at all, but I wanted to comment on it because it was the first time I had experienced the negatives of LORs. In 1992, I was on new, on-staff, at a very large high school in the ‘burbs’.

During the weekly staff meeting, it was announced, by the Principal, that a student’s family was planning on suing the school district, on their son’s behalf, because the family felt that their precious child had received poor LOR’s from our staff and he didn’t receive any offers from the Ivies.

From the viewpoint of the teachers, this kid had always gotten away with “everything” (belittling/bullying others-especially some of the more studious/quiet kids, menacing teachers into changing his grades, etc.) and his parents always condoned these inappropriate behaviors-threatening to sue every teacher, at any time.

Once the Principal announced the lawsuit, people seemingly knew who the kid was, and looked to specific teachers who didn’t appear fazed by it. One of the more outspoken AP math teachers raised his hand and said, “I’m sharing because I am one of the teachers who was asked for a LOR. I have made my statement to our legal staff.” "I stated that the letter said: ‘Johnny attends my class, he takes tests and turns in his homework’. "

Lots of comments, laughs, exclamations followed.
The teacher then explained, “This kid shoved a paper in my face, while I was working with another student, said-“I need you to fill out this letter for my colleges, and it needs to be sent by _____”. So I filled it out and mailed it in myself.”

I later found out that the kid was so sure that he was a shoo-in everywhere, but he didn’t bother to note that the teachers really didn’t like him, nor his family’s litigious threats. He was rude and disrespectful to them, but he expected them all to write glowing letters because he had “good grades”.

Apparently, several teachers were asked, as were his coaches, but they made excuses that they were overwhelmed with requests and couldn’t guarantee that the letters would be completed by the deadline. The kid didn’t “read the room” well. Those 3 teachers/coaches that did write letters wrote the bare minimum: ‘Johnny had 3 excused absences and turned in his assignments by the deadlines and participates in class.’

It went to arbitration. Information had been received that kid’s tutor had written his English papers. The family admitted that they had tutors “help” their son with homework assignments.

Teacher’s are overwhelmed with requests, and there is only so much they can say about you.
If they hesitate to give an immediate, straight answer, then they are overwhelmed or don’t know how or what to say about the student, so they should decline.

The student needs to move to another writer.

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