Record high yield rate of 68-69% for University of Pennsylvania Class of 2020

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Pennsylvania
21

I suspect that Quaker days and other programs do actually help the yield. I know it’s not the norm on CC, but there are still quite a few students who apply to top schools without visiting campus, or visiting in the summer. I’m trying to show D as many schools as possible, but from the middle states it’s logistically difficult during the school year.

I remember very clearly my first day at Penn, we had not been to the campus before…my parents almost took me home after seeing the neighborhood. But then we ate at Koch’s, and all was well!

22

I am not so sure it impacts more than about 50 students. It is important they put up a good show but most people who spend their own money to come are making that final choice based on many other factors. I know people who went to Quaker days who chose not to attend and it had nothing to do with their experience at Penn and more to do with some recent headlines.

23

Among all comparable elite schools, Penn offered my C the best FA without FWS. Penn has been becoming more attractive probably due to the super qualities of liberty art and pre-professional educations, the unbeatable dual-degree programs, the generosity of FA, and the best of the best job opportunities.

24

Rather than presenting anecdotal evidence, let’s look at some data.

Per the new College Scorecard, UPenn students incur $21,500 in debt. Overall starting salary is $78,000. (https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/school/?215062-University-of-Pennsylvania)

In comparison, Harvard’s average debt load is only $6K, with a $87,000 starting salary.

Princeton’s average debt load is $7k, with a $75,000 starting salary.

Stanford’s average debt load is $12k, with a $80,000 starting salary.

MIT’s average debt load is $13k, with a $90,000 starting salary.

As seen here, yes, Penn’s starting salary is high (in the same ball park as the tippy top schools), but the debt load, overall, is about $10-15k more. Of course, sometimes a UPenn fin aid package will be better than what MIT or Stanford (or others) offers. Overall, though, starting salaries for all these schools are about the same, and Penn grads take on significantly more debt.

This is still an issue for Penn, especially since a range of schools have much better student debt numbers. It becomes even worse when you consider that some students may not want to take a high paying job, but will feel more pressure to do so at Penn (rather than Yale, Harvard, etc.) because of the higher student debt load.

25

I agree that it would be good to bring the debt load down. To reduce it by $10k would cost 10k x 2,400 students per year is $24 million. That is 0.25% of the endowment. I think the question is, will Penn get a better incoming class in return, or is there a better use for that money?

26

How much percentage of students is on full pay (no FA)?

27

@f2000sa

http://www.thedp.com/article/2016/02/penn-announces-tuition-increase

“About 46% of undergrads received need-based financial aid in 2015-16” - so, a significant (presumably wealthy) portion do not receive any FA.

Also, @Much2learn it certainly would be good to bring debt down, but endowment spending is very tightly regulated. As schools only spend 3-4% of their investment income a year, deciding to use even a fraction of a percentage for more FA is a big decision.

Don’t hold your breath to see Penn’s debt load coming down to the level of the big boys any time soon.

28

Penn IS in the midst of a fundraising campaign called Penn Compact 2020, which has as one of its specific goals to raise an additional $240 million in endowment for undergraduate financial aid by 2020, on top of the $360 million for undergraduate financial aid that was raised as part of the Making History campaign that ended in 2012:

http://www.thedp.com/article/2015/01/billion-dollar-funding-goal

At 4% a year in usable endowment income, the additional $240 million would translate into an additional $9.6 million per year in available undergraduate financial aid, or about $8,000-9,000 more per year for the average financial aid package. Penn is keenly aware of the need to increase undergraduate financial aid to compete with its peers for the best students, and is quite focused on doing so.

29

$10k of additional debt is worth about the same as $1,000 of additional salary, when you consider both salaries and debt load.

Calculated that way, Penn is ahead of everyone except MIT, Harvard, and Stanford in value creation for its students. That suggests that Penn is already wearing the big boy pants!

30

@“45 Percenter”

Keep in mind, though, that tuition will continue to increase, AND Penn will continue to court more students who will need Financial Aid. (As lower-income students become a more sought-after commodity, Penn will most likely follow suit, and increase the % of students who seek aid.) So, the total amount of student debt will decrease, but probably not as considerably as you conjecture.

Further, most of the “big boys” (Harvard, Stanford, etc.), are in the midst of their own fundraising campaigns, and most of their efforts exceed Penn’s past effort, and current effort. (Harvard, for example, will raise in the neighborhood of $7-8B, Stanford raised close to $7B recently, etc.) Those schools have more money for fewer students.

This is a long-winded way of saying that, barring some sort of unforeseen gift, the picture 5-7 years from now will look similar to the picture today.

31

@Cue7 Granted, Penn has a LONG way to go to even begin to approach the wealth and financial aid resources of Harvard, Stanford, etc. However, Columbia, Brown, Dartmouth, Duke, Chicago, etc? That’s a much different story. :wink:

Not to mention that Penn has long been known for “doing more with less.”

32

Don’t you think that Penn give less because it’s a bigger school than HYPSM, so there’s more money that needs to be shelled out? Freshman class is almost double what the other schools are. I think they do a great job with f. aid…but then, we are in that income bracket and have outside scholarship such that we’re really, really, really fortunate to get a lot of aid.

33

@Much2learn

“$10k of additional debt is worth about the same as $1,000 of additional salary, when you consider both salaries and debt load.”

But that ignores the pressure to take a higher paying job if/when you have more student debt. Further, incoming students consider debt load MUCH more than potential income (as potential income is more unclear, and the debt load is quite definite).

Further, amongst schools that are closely bunched (Harvard, Stanford, Duke, Columbia, Penn, etc.) for ex

Either way, all the elites offer persuasive debt-to-income ratios. UPenn is still a great deal, as is Dartmouth, Brown, Columbia, Williams, etc. etc.

The key is that, from an optics perspective (and a practical one), debt needs to be driven as low as possible. If a student could have $7K in debt from Princeton, but $21k in debt from Penn, there really isn’t much to sway a student to UPenn - especially when starting salaries between Princeton and Penn are so similar. Further, there is variability in starting salary every year, and the schools are so closely bunched. One year Penn could have a higher starting salary, but next year, Princeton easily could.

Again, starting salary is great, but, especially for incoming students, the financial aid package is MUCH more important.

34

@cue7 “Again, starting salary is great, but, especially for incoming students, the financial aid package is MUCH more important.”

I don’t agree, because it isn’t only the starting salary. It is also having a job that requires a degree. In the current economic environment about 50% of new college graduates can’t find a job, or have a job that does not require a degree. In that environment, attending a school like Penn with very high placement rate and good salaries is incredibly valuable.

35

@Much2learn

Absolutely, exit options are important, but amongst similarly situated schools, they are quite similar. Duke’s exit options and Penn’s look similar.

For people comparing top schools, then, fa becomes a considerable factor, and there’s a difference in the $21k for Penn and the $6k for Harvard.

My post concentrated on identifying meaningful differences amongst similarly situated schools. A difference of $72k or 78k in average starting salary isn’t really meaningful, it just shows the schools are similar. Debt levels between top schools are more probative.