Regular Premed vs. BS-MD Program which requires MCAT

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
1

<p>I've been combing through hundreds of pages of very valuable advice on choosing an undergraduate school before medical school. (Thank you BDM, Goldshadow, NorCal, and many others.!) I came across the following post by M1817 on 2/28/06 in High School Student Topics: </p>

<p>"Top Pre-Med Colleges & Med Schools Rankings
FYI, this is an excerpt from a Powerpoint presentation on Medical Deprtment Recruiting by:</p>

<p>CAPT Cynthia Macri, MC, USN
Vice President, Recruitment & Diversity
Uniformed Services University</p>

<p>Top Ten Pre-Med Colleges By Number of Med School Applications
UCLA - 611
UC Berkeley - 536
U Michigan – 522
UT Austin - 391
UF Gainesville - 385
UCSD – 345
Harvard – 307
UW Madison – 305
UVA – 303
UIUC – 300
Stanford - 300</p>

<hr>

<p>Competitive Med Schools
MCAT >31.5 + GPA >3.5
Washington Univ., St. Louis, Harvard, Johns Hopkins, Vanderbilt, Yale, Duke, Stanford, Mayo, NYU, U Penn, Michigan, UCSF, UCSD, UC Davis, UCLA</p>

<p>Second Tier
MCAT >30 + GPA >3.5
Cornell, U of Chicago, Pittsburgh, Utah, Baylor, UT Southwestern, Ohio State, Virginia, UC Irvine, Washington (Seattle)</p>

<p>Third Tier (Top 46/126)
MCAT 29-30 + GPA 3.4-3.6
USUHS (#40), Einstein (Yeshiva), SUNY Stony Brook, NY Medical College, Albany, SUNY Buffalo, Georgetown, Drexel, USC, St. Louis U, Emory, South Florida, Northwestern, Wake Forest, Dartmouth, U Mass Worcester, Colorado, Oregon, Maryland, Alabama, New Jersey</p>

<p>Middle Third Med Schools (43)
MCAT 27-29 + GPA >3.4
Wisconsin, Hawaii, Indiana, Iowa, New Jersey (RWJ), Arizona, Florida, Missouri (Columbia), UT San Antonio, UT Galveston, SUNY Brooklyn, SUNY Syracuse, Michigan State, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Nevada, Penn State, Kansas, Texas Tech, TX A&M, Illinois, Mississippi, Tennessee, Kentucky, S. Carolina, N. Carolina, Case Western, Loyola, Jefferson, Tulane, Cincinnati, Med Coll Virginia, Miami, Temple, George Washington, Med Coll Georgia, South Alabama, Tufts, Mt. Sinai, Rush, Boston U, Med Coll Wisconsin, Med U S. Carolina</p>

<p>MCAT <27 + GPA <3.5
Eastern Virginia, Finch, Loma Linda, Louisville, Wayne State, Creighton, SIU (Springfield), Rochester, Med Coll Ohio, East Tennessee, Mercer, Marshall
Minnesota (Duluth), New Mexico, Vermont, LSU (Shreveport), North Dakota, West Virginia, LSU (New Orleans), South Dakota, UT Houston, Missouri (Kansas City)</p>

<p>Bottom 10 Med Schools
MCAT <24
MCAT 24: Missouri (Kansas City), Wright State, East Carolina
MCAT 21-24: Arkansas, UPR, Meharry, Howard, Morehouse
MCAT <21:Ponce, Caribe</p>

<p>Osteopathic Schools
MCAT 24-26 (Note none > 26)
Kirksville, Chicago COM, North Texas, Ohio, Oklahoma State, Western, Des Moines, NJ, Nova, Michigan State, PCOM
MCAT <24
Kansas City, New England, NYCOM, Lake Erie, West Virginia
N/A: Touro, V Tech, Pikesville, Arizona
Last edited by m1817; 02-28-2006 at 01:56 PM. "</p>

<p>Assuming these numbers are correct and still hold true today, this categorization of schools according to MCAT scores and GPA had me wondering the value of some bs-md programs which require the MCAT. It appears to me that to stay in their programs you are required to keep your GPA and MCAT score at the same level you would require to enter their medical school if you had gone the usual route of pre-med at a school of your choice. For example, to stay in the Penn State-Jefferson combined program, I think you must keep your GPA >3.5 and MCAT >28, but you can see Jefferson listed in the middle third of med schools where regular med school applicants had MCAT 27-29 + GPA >3.4. At U Miami, you are required to maintain GPA 3.7 MCAT 28 for 7 yrs, or GPA 3.5, MCAT 26 for 8 yrs. I had always heard that combined programs, even with an MCAT required, gave you security, because the MCAT scores required were generally lower than what you need when you go the regular route. But it seems to me this is not the case. Are there other benefits other than acceleration that I am failing to see? Is there an advantage for financial aid opportunities to be able to apply to a lot of different medical schools by going the regular route?</p>

2

<p>The numbers are off to say the least. The median for accepted applicants to top med schools is around 3.8/37 with some as high as 3.9/39 (WashU Med). Mid tier is around 3.7/32-33. Low tier is in the 3.6/30 range. There are very few med schools with medians lower than 3.5/30.</p>

3

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<p>NCG’s accurate complaint aside, this is a true criticism of these BS/MD programs. They play on overall premed fears, after intentionally selecting kids who are fairly certain to succeed anyway. And then they hold them to very similar standards.</p>

4

<p>Not only the numbers are off, where the schools should be are off also. UC Davis is in first tier? Northwestern is below Utah, Southwestern, Ohio State??</p>

5

<p>The person who published the study was Director of Recruitment and Diversity; I wonder how much diversity factored into her analysis. If it was a factor in her analysis it could explain her findings. </p>

<p>Try getting into Baylor or UTSW with the scores and GPA listed. Unless you are a URM, it isn’t going to happen.</p>

<p>Northwestern is ranked below UT Southwestern if you are considering research. Also UNC numbers are way off.</p>

<p>I suspect this analysis had other criteria that aren’t being disclosed in what we are seeing because admissions standards haven’t changed THAT much in three years.</p>

6

<p>My assumption is that the <em>post</em> is three years old, but the data is a few years older than that.</p>

7

<p>eadad,</p>

<p>UT Southwestern is about the same as Northwestern in research, according to US News (NU actually had slightly more 07 grants). As far as admission goes, average GPA/MCAT per section is 3.71/11.4 for NU and 3.68/10.8 for SW. I thought that list was about admission stats; if it’s not, then the list is even worse. Why put MCAT/GPA when the list isn’t even all about that? A “study” that I would give a “F” either way.</p>

8

<p>It is prbly is very different from case to case. D is very glad that she is in a program. She has chosen the non-accelerated one so that she has normal college experience where she is with general student body. It feels more secure for her, that she needs only MCAT=27 to have a spot and if she gets much higher, than she will apply out to few others still retaining her spot. She heard that at some elite schools it can get crazy competitive, and she decided to apply only to combined programs. So far has worked for her, but could be different for somebody who wants specific UG school name attached to them for the rest of their lives.</p>

9

<p>Is there a downside to doing a combined program? If you are guaranteed admittance as long as you meet the standards, this seems much better than doing your undergrad then hoping you are one of the 45% selected by a school. Sure, they’re not top med schools, but it seems most agree that the med school doesn’t matter unless you’re on the ROAD. I’m kinda wishing now that I had known about the combined programs when I was applying to colleges during the winter. </p>

<p>Do they gouge you financially? Or are there any state schools that have the combined program? And are the combined program very difficult to get into?</p>

10

<p>Yes. The disadvantage is that you have to go to a college which you might not otherwise want to go to, thus sacrificing the best four years of your life.</p>

<p>The odds for most students at 45%; the odds for the sorts of kids who get into these programs are much higher than that.</p>

11

<p>Dear Miami DAP,
Which program is your daughter in? Does she like it? If you score less than 27 on the MCAT, do they let you have a second chance?</p>

12

<p>BDM: is premed really the best for years of your life? I would think the stress of getig into med school would be a constant worry… Did you actually enjoy it? What would the average day be like?</p>

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<p>Well, the program I’m in now is awfully fun, too. But undergrad was amazing. I was an economics major and a premed, so I was taking a lot more classes than usual, but I still had time for all kinds of wastes of time – playing pranks on friends, organizing parties for Lost and House,* going out to dinner at the local Chinese buffet, blogging…</p>

<p>Even when I was taking six classes (normal is four), I slept ten hours a day (ask my roommates), watched every Duke basketball game on television, spent six weeks living in a tent, went over at late hours to play Taboo with friends, wrote letters to my high school friends (actual letters), went to retreats on the weekends, and played basketball on Saturday mornings.</p>

<p>I also TA’d a math class (I love teaching), tutored inner-city students, spent time playing checkers with children in Duke hospital’s oncology ward, worked in a lab (which was fun, I promise), was a tour guide.</p>

<p>And college is fun. The things I was studying were fun. I got to learn physics, microbiology, game theory, econometrics, political science, and multivariable calculus. I took a creative writing course (where the professor did not like me) and a photography course (where the professor did). I got to write papers about anemia, quantum mechanics, international macroeconomics, internal defibrillators, the Battle of the Somme, constitutional law, natural disasters, the nature of magnetism, animal rights, and Othello. I used to wander around campus looking for other people to do homework with, even if they weren’t in my classes – just so I could learn what they were learning. When Deirdre’s Shakespeare class had a paper due, I helped her on it and learned all about King Lear; when Aaron’s economics class made them all read Ayn Rand, I read Ayn Rand with him.</p>

<p>*(Okay, you caught me. Also had weekly parties for Scrubs, Veronica Mars, Battlestar Galactica, Arrested Development, 24, Everybody Hates Chris, and reruns of Friends.)</p>

14

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I guess nobody’s perfect :(</p>

15

<p>Wow, bluedevilmike, this is with standard undergrad? what med school do you go to?</p>

16

<p>Yup, it was a standard undergraduate program.</p>

17

<p>Yeah, me too. I want to know where you went and it really seems like you are smart with all that time and managing 6 classes! Bravo to you Mr. smartie Pants! :)</p>

<p>My dream and passion is medicine and going on into Medical School.</p>

18

<p>as has been mentioned the stats in the original post are WAY off and are probably very outdated…but this:</p>

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<p>is the wrong answer.</p>

<p>if you look at the most recent MSAR (the one that came out last month) you’ll see that your MCAT numbers are incorrect…WashU is the only school with an MCAT median of 37 and other “top” schools are at 35-36. The vast majority of schools have median MCAT scores of 31-33 and only a very small handful are < 30, mainly the historically black colleges and the PR schools. </p>

<p>I’m also surprised that noone mentioned that there aren’t any “tiers” in med school. Sure you can draw arbitrary lines in the US News rankings, which themselves don’t tell you how “good” a med school is. Also a big part of how “good” a med school is comes down to geography (where you want to do residency or practice)</p>

<p>

  1. you end up not going to a college you’ll have fun or be sufficiently challenged at
  2. you have to apply on their timeline not yours…you can’t take any time off between UG and med school
  3. you probably won’t have much of an incentive to explore classes and disciplines
  4. you have to decide to go into medicine when you’re 17 and might feel like you’re stuck with it
  5. the “premed” degree you get at many of these programs (especially the 7 year accelerated ones) is barely worth the paper they print it on so you ARE basically stuck with medicine
  6. you might not pursue as many ECs or get as many life experiences since you are already basically guaranteed a spot</p>

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<p>they are need blind like all other admissions. there are a bunch of state schools that have combined programs. they are pretty competitive with admit rates similar to med schools.</p>

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<p>if you don’t enjoy college then you are doing something wrong. premed is just a bunch of intro courses you have to take…with the exception of organic chem (and sometimes physics) these should all be a cake walk. there is no reason to stress about getting into med school because that won’t help you get in…do ECs you enjoy, try your best in your classes and study hard for the MCAT 3-6 months before you take it and you should be fine. If you think premeds work the hardest in undergrad then you are horribly mistaken! How hard you work will depends on your major…i suggest you take a look at some of the courseloads and classes in engineering majors!</p>

19

<p>The numbers I gave were based were based on the data assembled in the 4th post in this thread (although the data used is from the previous MSAR).</p>

<p>[New</a> MSAR Out - Student Doctor Network Forums](<a href=“New MSAR Out | Student Doctor Network”>New MSAR Out | Student Doctor Network)</p>

<p>It shows Stanford, Northwestern, Hopkins, etc. as having composite medians of 37 for accepted applicants.</p>