Religious breakdown at Yale

Colleges and Universities A-Z Yale University
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<p>Zorkxelf,</p>

<p>Jews are not the only group that are "over represented" in the pool of accepted applicants to elite colleges. The same could be said of Asians. If you can show me that either of these groups--Asians or Jews--have gpa's or test scores that are deficient in any way, that might suggest undue influence. However, that is clearly not the case. To insist that either Jews or Asians be limited to a specific percentage of college acceptances because that mirrors their general representation in the population as a whole would, in my view, verge on the ridiculous. Shall we also insist that colleges accept applicants by gender according to this same rule? In that case, most LAC's are not in compliance, and places like Smith or Hampden-Sydney would be totally out the door.</p>

<p>Secondly, Jews are as much an ethnic group as they are a religion. I have a large host of friends who are Jewish by birth and whose names sound Jewish, but who would describe themselves as atheists, Buddhists, Moslems, or Christian in terms of their religion. Given the fact that Jews are an ethnic group, does this mean that according to your reasoning, we should also insist that Irish-Americans or Italian Americans be represented only in numbers that reflect their presence in the population at large? And what do you do about engineering, mathematics, or the physical sciences where there is a disproportonately "large" number of internationals, many of them from Third World countries?</p>

<p>Once you start playing games like this, people end up in separate trees hurling coconuts at each other. It is not a pretty picture. The issue of AA is not pertinent here. There are very valid social reasons why you would want representation from under represented ethnic or economic groups, but I see no reason to exclude Jewish or Asian students merely because their numbers in certain colleges are greater than the population as a whole.</p>

22

<p>Get over it, zorkxelf. My D is neither Jewish, rich, athletic, or a legacy and she got into Yale, and so did a lot of others, presumably on their merits. What you are proposing is a return to the disgraceful practice of imposing a Jewish quota. I think this thread should stop right now.</p>

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<p>Traditionally, Jewish families have placed a huge emphasis on education. Whether that's true anymore, I don't know. </p>

<p>But if you had my mother, you'd work your hiney off too. :)</p>

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<p>ok, so i’ll agree that the name thing happens here and there. but if this is your explanation for why instead of 68 jewish students on campus we have 1500, i don’t buy it. it is compete and utter bs that admissions doesn’t have a clue about the religious orientation of 1432 admits.</p>

25

<p>Most Jews are pretty secular, so it wouldn't show in their applications. And even if it did, Yale couldn't discriminate on the basis of religion.</p>

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<p>Zorkxelf...speaking only for myself, I find your rant offensive.</p>

<p>One does not need to look far on CC to find complaints that AA is unfair because it gives a boost to URMs.</p>

<p>Others will sometimes complain that because they are OVER-represented minorities, that they are at a disadvantage.</p>

<p>At least Zorkxelf, you have figured out that being an over-reperesented minority is, indeed, a benefit. In fact, I wonder why some ask if they can somehow be squeezed into some URM category. By definition a URM is UNDER-represented and therefore at a disadvantage.</p>

<p>That's why I believe AA is a good thing. Schools recognize that certain populations have not been treated fairly over time and are making an effort to correct the situation. But obviously, as a society, we have a long way to go. There would be no need for AA if those populations were no longer UNDER-represented.</p>

<p>At one time, Jewish students were overlooked simply because they were Jewish. Obviously, that no longer seems to be the case. So we're making progress. I look forward to the day when no one is overlooked for any reason.</p>

<p>And Gorbachev....I don't know about "most" Jews. Many applicants do make their religious affiliation clear, if inadvertantly. If one of your extra curriculars involved participation in a Synagogue youth group (or similar activity), it would be fairly obvious. As it would be for anyone who listed a similar kind of religious-oriented activity.</p>

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<p>zorkxelf - I think Gorbechev's reasoning is valid - the importance of education in Jewish - and Asian- communities has resulted in a higher proportion of very accomplished college applicants among these groups.
(Coincidentally, or not, at my son's HS this year, EVERY cum laude student was female, and either Jewish or Asian!) As a caucasian, I admire the intellect, but even more the work ethic, of many in these ethnic groups.<br>
I don't think it's a matter of taking care of their own. "Their own"' originally, was WASP.</p>

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<p>Higher representations of certain ethnic/religious groups may also be a reflection of whose families are willing (not necessarily the same as <em>able</em>) to pay for a school like Yale. Emphasis on education within a certain group may not only produce many students qualified for Yale, it produces families willing to sacrifice to pay the bills.</p>

<p>In our community (western US), most of our friends and neighbors thought we were nuts to even let our son apply to Yale, much less be willing to pay. </p>

<p>Within my wife's family (Jewish, Northeast) this would never have been a question -- you save all your life to send your kid to the best school he/she can get into and do without anything you can't afford over and above the tuition. </p>

<p>Out here, you send your kid to the school that gives him the most money, buy him a nice car and yourself a nice boat, then brag about how smart you are to do it that way.</p>

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<p>hey Cami215. firstly, i do agree with you in that college acceptances do not need to mirror the general population. you mention that other groups are “over represented”-citing asian students at yale as an example. in fact, asians are NOT “over represented.” asians make up only 13% of the undergraduate pop at yale. this is only 3X the 4% asian representation in the U.S. (similar to the islamic presence at yale – 4X the .5% percentage of the population). the african american yale pop is actually less that the general pop- only 2/3 of the US population reflected ( 8% at yale vs. 12 % general pop).</p>

<p>the jewish population at yale is 22X the jewish percentage in the U.S.<br>
comparatively, this is beyond “over representation,” and i believe warrants some discussion.</p>

<p>i also agree with you (Cami215), Gorbachev-Sez, ASAP - that education in jewish (and asian) communities is highly emphasized and i admire that. i have no doubt that the applicant pools from these two segments have outstanding SAT scores and excellent grades. but I must also say that from my own experiences with my jewish friends and observations of fellow jewish classmates, the work ethic that you mention takes on an almost obsessive nature. a nature that unfortunately sometimes relegates the love of learning and true genius as less important than getting the “A” and beating the SAT.
my jewish friends readily admit their mothers are practically crazy; check their homework, constantly want to know details of their competition, constantly arranging private meetings with teachers/counselors/masters. just about every one of my jewish friends has been tutored for the SAT for YEARS(!!). one has been meeting in a jewish SAT prep group at their temple after school since the age of twelve!! i could tell similar stories about my asian friends. anyway….yes, if you look at the stats of many jewish and asian students- they will be impressive. Their mommies and daddies will make sure they are! </p>

<p>some of my asian friends complain that they are in fact penalized because of their familial ethnic value of academic excellence by being required to have a higher level of achievement. i would have to agree with them. if ethnicity was not used as a factor for asians (at the cost of caucasian applicants) then their admits would definitely increase.</p>

<p>-So… Cami215, your second point is well taken. and i quote, “Jews are as much an ethnic-group as they are a religion.” Gorbachev-Sez in a sense supports this, with his remark that even though secular, he shares tradition will all jewish people. when i asked my jewish friends (some secular, some not) ¾ felt they belonged to a particular race.
- if, indeed, jews were considered a minority ethnic group during the admissions process, then perhaps we would see an admit rate similar to that of the asians (instead of almost double) :
asian population at yale = 13%
jewish “ “ = 23%</p>

<p>certainly the “importance of education” appears to be a very important tradition of both the jewish and asian groups. There is NO DOUBT that being raised in an environment that cherishes and nurtures academic and professional achievement is a huge advantage in the college admissions process.</p>

<p>presently, however, within the asian group – this familial advantage becomes a disadvantage. all asian students are measured against each other – many or most from families that have pushed their kids to the max.</p>

<ul>
<li>this commonly acknowledged “importance of education” within the jewish group gives them a huge advantage within the caucasian group.<br></li>
<li>jewish kids (and their mommies) are pitted against many caucasians whose parents do not believe that they should spend thousands of dollars for private tutoring to beat the SAT, or that the “A” is more important than the process of learning. the very large caucasion grouping also has many poor students with uneducated parents who basically don’t’ care.<br>
-so, ya, if you look at the huge Caucasian group, the jewish kids probably have great scores and grades.<br></li>
</ul>

<p>nycdad. i, too believe in AA. it is essential to have as much diversity as possible at our best colleges, be it: race, ethnicity, religion, economic status, sexual orientation, ect.</p>

<p>-the admissions dept appears to go to great lengths to diversify. how many times do i have to read about admissions “creating communities” or “balancing things.” meanwhile, more and more outstanding, brilliant students are rejected with each year, all understanding the need for diversity.
- so why is it, that we are to believe the admissions staff does not have a clue about the fact that jewish students at yale represent over TWENTY times the national percentage.</p>

<p>let’s see what that means in relative terms to the student body at yale;
Twenty times the national percentage of Christians would = 80,896 students (really?)
Twenty times the “ “ muslims “ = 525 students(really 105)
Twenty times the “ “ asians “ = 13, 658 (really 682)
Twenty times the “ “ jews “ = 1,365 (really 1500)</p>

<p>maybe this would be good question for the new dean of admissions, Jeffrey Brenzel? </p>

<p>hey, gotta go. the library tech is giving me the 'the look."</p>

<p>P.S. if you are “offended” (yes, i know, numbers can offend) or you cannot discuss, then i suggest you find another post. That would be you, VETERANMOM. By the way…now that you have your special D in the ivy, is this all you do all day? Surf CC?<br>
my friend (who is jewish, by the way) would like you to know that he has the creepy feeling that YOU are jewish. he says you sound way too much like his mother….
after four years of hard work getting his sister (you know, S ) into an ivy, all she does is gloat about the fact that she got in, and thinks she’s a big authority on the college and such. anyway…he wants you to know that there are lots of refuge people from New Orleans that could probably use your time (and help).</p>

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<p>maybe if you dont want to be around jews, you should go to bob jones or brigham young.
and by the way, yes, i am jewish, no i never got any tutoring or extra classes of any kind, i couldnt afford it, my family is not obsessed with grades- in fact, i'm the only one in the extended family with an advanced degree, and my brother and sister have always hated school and done poorly. the only people i know who had sat tutors or private college counselors were <gasp> christian. so how can you generalize?
also, all the ivies are in the northeast, where there is a huge jewish population- i'd be willing to bet that if harvard was in arkansas, there would not be as many jews.</gasp></p>

<p>i'll say it again- college admissions offices have no way to verify someone's religion without explicitly asking. my last name happens to be very jewish- something i thought would be obvious until my college roommate asked me which church i went to.</p>

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<p>huskem. maybe i'll say it again, too</p>

<p>if you are "offended" (meaning you sound very hostile and angry about the numerical facts i have presented) and are incapable of a good discussion, then find another post.</p>

<p>oh...and no, i dont' think bob jones university is the answer. thanks for the great input, though.</p>

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<p>thanks for the laugh zork</p>

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<p>I think you should use this topic for your college essay and raise the issue with your interviewer. No doubt, this will gain your application the correct attention it deserves. I know that Yale, at the least, is quite fond of applicants who make racist implications from huge generalizations, the real mark of intelligence. </p>

<p>Why, may I ask, is it a problem if there are many jews at institutions like Yale? No doubt, they gained admission by merit when compared to others in at least their ethnic group (caucasian). Quite astonishing as well when you consider the legacy factor at places like Yale is quite strong, and going back two generations, there were hardly any jews there at all. Do you feel there should be some sort of quota re-established to keep the jews proportional, or to keep new england prep schoolers like yourself more represented? Do you think there might be a conspiracy? </p>

<p>or is this whole rant just sour grapes...</p>

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<p>crimsonbulldog.
well, thank you for the providing the DESPARATE reaction that i predicted would ensue; you know, divert attention from supporting facts by calling me a dumb racist. unfortunately for you, i am neither a racist, nor dumb.</p>

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<p>so its sour grapes then. Or would you actually like to answer my questions?
I mean, you've stated the data, now what do you think OUTRIGHT about the situation, or are you just going to continue with innuendo and implied conculsions? </p>

<p>not quite sure how my post was desparate, but nice use of capitals anyways.</p>

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<p>Just one thing: why does it matter? I live in a state where Jews are an under-represented minority...way less than 1% of our population is Jewish. And it makes no difference to me. I'm not going to write to my state legislature to request that we import some Jews quick, because I feel outnumbered.</p>

<p>Anyway, being a non-Jew is not going to hurt you in the application process, so it really has no impact on you anyway.</p>

37

<p>This is probably the most ridiculous thread I've ever read.</p>

<p>Firstly, I am a Yale student. Secondly, I'm Jewish by blood.</p>

<p>Now that that's out of the way...</p>

<p>I haven't posted here in a year (and I hardly posted then, either), but I was referred to this thread for its comic value by a friend of mine. Let me begin by saying, Zorkxelf, that you'll be sorely disappointed to learn that the percentange of Jews at Yale that Hillel reports (~25%) is actually a gross undersestimation. See, the Yale Hillel chapter sends out a religious information form at the year's beginning, and it compiles its statistics and mailing list based on who responds as being Jewish. I never responded, and many others respond as being atheists, etc. Long story short, the percentage of people Jewish by blood or culture or whatever is closer to 40%, I would say.</p>

<p>I would also say that that percentage does not matter. You complain about "gross overrepresentation," and it seems as though you believe that Jews are admitted BECAUSE they're Jews. This is a ridiculous notion. Outside of some very obvious surnames or extracurriculars relating to synagogue service, adcoms would have no way of knowing who is Jewish. And even in the cases where the religion seems evident, no adcom actively takes into consideration that the applicant might be Jewish. Why? Because they don't care. It makes no difference. The only thing that matters is admitting the strongest class possible.</p>

<p>If you want to launch a tirade against overrepresentation, I guess you'd be offended to note that an astonishingly high percentage of billionaires, comedians, chess grandmasters, classical violinists and 49th St jewelers are Jewish. By the same token, Asians are ridiculous overrepresented among USAMO qualifiers. </p>

<p>It comes down to culture, I believe. I've been to temple maybe thrice in my existence, but I consider myself diligent and persistent, and I'll work hard to succeed. This attitude was manifest in most of my Jewish friends growing up. That is why they're overrepresented - not some crazy scheme to overturn the admissions process.</p>

<p>And if you are qualified, Zork, you could be admitted too. I'd spend less time worrying about statistics and questioning the qualifications of other groups of people and more time considering your own.</p>

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<p>hummmm... well so far I’ve been called racist, dumb, and now I’m being laughed at - ya, i'm a big joke.
hmmm... funny enough to bring you out of hiding to comment, apparently.</p>

<p>-but hey, even though i know you’d love to keep talking about me…lets’s get back to the facts(and stop calling me names).</p>

<p>-thank you, Actie. i stand corrected, and apologize for the misinformation i gave out earlier.
-as someone with “jewish blood” you apparently are well aware of how many jews are on your campus, and I quote,” the percentage of people Jewish by blood or culture or whatever is closer to 40%.” (at yale).</p>

<p>therefore, please disregard my previous post stating that jewish students at yale represent over twenty times the national percentage (source;hillel). in fact (according to Actie) jewish students at yale represent THIRTY times the U.S. percentage.</p>

<p>soooo, let's see what that means in relative terms to the student body at yale</p>

<p>-Thirty times national % of christians would = 121,344 students on campus
-Thirty times the “ muslims “ =788 students (really 105)
-Thirty times the " aians “ = 6,303 students (really 683)
-Thirty times the “ jews “ = 2048 students (really 2,101)</p>

<p>hey, thanks for the correction.</p>

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<p>zork, in all seriousness, why do you care?</p>

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<p>hey,been busy with school and such....
anyone interested in commenting, please read the entire post.</p>