<p>I see that you are intending to apply to Yale, zorkxelf. Don't bother. We don't like bigots and racists in our student body, particularly those that attempt to mask their racism in so-called "intelligent arguments". (As you can see, most people on this board share my opinion). You clearly wouldn't be happy here anyway, because you'd have to deal with all those Jews. By the way, what exactly IS your argument/proposition - i.e. what of these facts you present? State it clearly and then maybe people would actually argue with you for real. Oh, let me guess what your reply is going to be, something about how everybody is calling you racist and dumb rather than arguing with you or some comment about how I sound suspiciously like a Jew or how everybody is getting angry at your facts.</p>
<p>i'm really confused by this thread. i don't quite understand the point of your statistics, zork? at first i thought it would be fine to know the statistics, but to suggest that jews are given some kind of huge advantage is just what someone called it, silly. there's no checkbox that says jewish, and therefore, jews are competing side by side to other caucasians. this means that their credentials must be much higher than those of other caucasians in the united states as a whole to acheive those numbers. i don't think anyone denies that jews (on average) place an emphasis on education, especially elite schools (although i would definitely have to diagree with the extent you've described), but if the admissions commitee did consider religion, being a jew would in fact be a disadvantage, as so many jews apply. articulate, well-rounded, intelligent jews are a dime a dozen. jews' perseverance can also be seen as a way of over compensating for the years of discrimination at such schools as yale. </p>
<p>in addition, for future notice, you shouldn't be so defensive about your opinions, it really doesn't make you seem correct.</p>
<p>He won't say it outright, but his posts indicate he believes there to be a jewish conspiracy.</p>
<p>here's an interesting article i recently read relating to this topic, and admissions in general:</p>
<p>"Getting In" by Malcolm Gladwell
<a href="http://www.newyorker.com/critics/atlarge/articles/051010crat_atlarge%5B/url%5D">http://www.newyorker.com/critics/atlarge/articles/051010crat_atlarge</a></p>
<p>I think the original topic was interesting but I think there are a couple of pretty gross assertions and very disturbing implications from your posts, zork.
And no, I don't think you are racist or honestly think there is a conspiracy. I just think you are being irrational in your extrapolation of data, and you are upset by something you don't quite understand. It seems like you are trying to make a vague overture of dissatisfaction when you don't have much to offer as an alternative . Here are what seem to be your most serious assumptions:
-You assume that the Yale population should model the national population in terms of religion. Isn't the entire point of AA to shift various socio-economic-(religious, I'll add that in) groups towards the end of pluralism/diversity in society?
-You assume that reported religions from surveys (where you derive your national 'data', and where you refer to Yale populations) are commensurate to actual beliefs. But earlier posters pointed out that most people of Jewish background are secular- just like secular Caucasians who would still profess to be Christian on a survey. In fact, you conflate two entirely separate things- Caucasian background, Christian Religion; Semitic background, Jewish religion through out all of your posts. This is generalized, but more significantly it hides the fact that both are Caucasians, and neither are truly an AA group. This diversity common denominator is thus completely REMOVED from socio-religious issues on balance in terms of admission, and it becomes an issue of merit. That has been the point of most other posters.
-You fail to point out how religious beliefs meaningfully impact the quality of the academic experience. You imply that there is some esoteric bond that unites religious people but I doubt that bond is very prominent and would affect school at all at a place like Yale, except for a fundamentalist few. Or are you proposing we increase that type of religious individual? Conversely, as others have pointed out racial bonds are an issue of fellowship and community that can be truly edifying for those involved, more as issue of identity than belief.
-You don't offer a reasonable solution. I think your MOST valid point- and it's never explicit so I'm making it so for other readers the best I can tell- is that given there is a certain conflation between diversity and religious experience there is an OVER abundance of the jewish worldview/diversity in opinion compared to other UNDER represented groups (not Christians per se.. I have no idea what the purpose of listing 20,000 Christians in attendance.. haha) like Muslims, Buddhists, etc.
I don't think this has a great impact, considering the above point about the relative affect of religious v. racial diversity.
Surely, advocating a restriction or quota on Jewish students would be morally and practically untenable. If you really want this, maybe your most derisive critics were right.
You are then left with only one option: given that Jewish students are often indiscernible within and as a Caucasian, in the Caucasian racial group, to solve your dilemma you must either a) decrease the net Caucasians at Yale both Christians and Jews until we massively increase the affect of AA till minority religious groups/perspectives/groups are brought up.
b) Include more covert religious identification and preference within the already somewhat blind system to achieve ends for those under-represented groups. Of course assuming you are WASP, this will probably disadvantage you.
Ironically, then, the only tenable 'solutions' to your issue would definitely hurt your chances as a Christian Caucasian.
It's probably in everybodys interest that we keep admissions blind, at least in this one respect. After all, do we really have to bring the most contentious and sticky point in American culture into the already conflictive and embattled world of college admissions?</p>
<p>I'd like to express that my "asian mommy and daddy" don't try to make sure that I have impressive stats (If anything, they are the least involved with my academics.)</p>
<p>That is all. You can continue your arguing.</p>
<p>Icefalcon7. thanks for putting so much time into a thoughtful reply. im pleased that you recognize i am not racist, dumb, nor paranoid of a conspiracy!
i am between classes and do not have a great deal of time, but Ill do my best to reply.
- firstly, you state that i, assume that the yale population should model the national population in terms of religion. this is not true. i only question why there seems to be such a ridiculously gross over-representation of jewish students on the yale (and other ivy) campus(s).
-secondly, you state,but earlier posters pointed out that most people of jewish background are secular. if the identification of members to hillel (30-40% of the student body) is purely secular, then the argument for jews to be considered as an ethnic group in the admissions process is a compelling thought. most, if not all, of my jewish friends are in fact very proud of their jewish blood as they should be, and when asked, definitely feel they are part of a jewish ethnic race.<br>
why is it then, that when college application time rolls around, this justifiably proud ethnic group not be considered as such? is it because the present quota systems in place for asians, african americans, latinos would be applicable to jewish people? is an asian quota somehow more palatable than a jewish quota?</p>
<p>-and finally (Im late for class as it is!), i have to address your final paragraph, icefalcon7, and i quote:
Its probably in everbodys interest that we keep admissions blind, at least in this one respect. After all, do we really have to bring the most contentious and sticky point in American culture into the already conflicted and embattled world of college admissions?</p>
<p>i have two comments. is it in EVERYBODYS interest (it certainly is if you are jewish, to leave things the way they are, isnt it?)?<br>
secondly, this could be a quote from 1962, referring to black desegregation. is your reasoning that we should not look for ways to diversify all aspects of a college campus, for fear of contentiousness?
what motivates you to defend a college admission process,in this one respect.?</p>