Research vs. "Feel" when you visit

Parents Forum
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<p>I think visits are important because there are just so many factors that go into making a college a fit that you can't always even articulate, but they're there. </p>

<p>A new book out by Malcolm Gladwell called "Blink" explores the phenomenom of how we can reach decisions in a few seconds. The book, to be sure, points out that these decisions are sometimes wrong, often with heartbreaking consequences. There are many ways to be led astray. But even though they can go wrong, actual impressions with all your senses can be a valuable guide. While most people liked my college (and indeed most people like their college no matter what it is), there were a few I met who enrolled sight-unseen and found out, to their dismay, that it wasn't right for them. Talking to them they often said they knew right away, which seems to underscore the value of a visit.</p>

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<p>I do agree that a visit is extremely helpful, but I do not think that it is absolutely essential in a situation where (for reasons of geography or finances) it simply is not possible. I mean, you can imagine the situation of a poor inner city kid who is the first in his family to go to college and who excels in school and wins admission to an Ivy ... but can't afford to visit.... you certainly wouldn't advise the kid to turn down Harvard because he was uncertain about the "fit" [even though, with the background,I hypothesized, it's almost certain that the Harvard lifestyle would be something of an adjustment].</p>

<p>OK - I admit that this is an extreme example, but the point is that I think a visit is very important, but not absolutely necesssary. A lot depends on the kid -- there are many kids who easily adjust to new situations and have a flexible attitude -- others are more touchy or prone to anxiety or depression if things don't go right. I have 2 kids who had high school foreign exchange experiences, in each case traveling halfway around the world to live with strangers -- and in each case they had delightful experiences and formed close bonds with their host families. Certainly it was worthwhile for them to take the risk that things might not go so well -- and in fact I discussed those "what-if" scenarios at length with each before they left. My son also felt very comfortable with his college, which he did visit - and was quite happy for his two years there ... but in the end the college did not meet his needs and he dropped out. I think the college was an excellent "fit"... for the 18 year old that enrolled. It just turned out to be a poor fit for the 20-year-old he became ... in his case, part of the problem was that he outgrew the confines of a small LAC. </p>

<p>Of course college is a big investment, and transferring to another college can be difficult if the first one doesn't work out ... so you want to weigh options carefully. But there certainly are plenty of good sources of information available to get an overall sense of what the college is, which may in the long run be as valid as the gut-level impression one gets in a visit. Yes, it's valuable to talk to students on campus - but with email and instant messaging, there are other ways to make contact with students and ask about their experiences.</p>

<p>I do think there are some situations which should cause more hesitation than others -- for example, if the college is very small or in a remote location, then it can be a very lonely place for a student who finds a stark contrast to what she expected. </p>

<p>So again... I certainly would encourage visits when possible. But it made me kind of sad (at first) to read Momrath's rule of "no visit, no apply". I cheered up when I clicked the link she provided and saw how many colleges they did visit -- certainly her son had plenty to choose from! So in her case, that worked out.... but I wouldn't want to impose the same rule on a kid whose finances preclude visiting more than two or three colleges in a single geographic location.</p>

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<p>I'm more of Momrath's opinion,</p>

<p>I can’t see any reason not to visit/view anything much before you make a decision to invest in it other than stocks/securities etc; not even a car. Many people have brought up the possibility that travel is impossible, this will of course limit any overall impression of a school, but sometimes you will have to make commitments with out actually having tested the prior reputation of a school.
Our daughter visited 21 schools over two years. Some of these were schools she was pretty sure she would be interested in and some were schools she simply didn’t have any real feeling for, based only on the reputations the schools had acquired through the popular press and personal acquaintances.
She was able to quickly narrow those down to 6 schools after her visits; 4 Lac’s, and Dartmouth and Brown. She liked them all nearly equally well with only one being a significantly better fit than the others. We visited 5 of these again more thoroughly. When she had narrowed it down to one, she did an overnight at the school, attended classes, went to a party etc.
At this point she was absolutely sure of the school and herself.
Of course she had done her homework before her visits; it was not a beauty contest, but on the other hand, she was not basing her decision simply on the reputation of any particular school. To my mind, neither criterion should rule out the other, but neither should stand alone. You are going to live with the school for four years. It’s hard to imagine making such a huge decision based on the opinions of other interested/disinterested purveyors of opinion, no matter how well intentioned.
For us, without visiting and spending time at the school, the decision would be made at the level of going to a dating service to find a date; dating services use specific criteria and may have educated, reliable and factually based opinions. It may be that you are forced into this route or that you are simply more comfortable with it, but it does seem somewhat less romantic than going about it the old fashioned and time consuming way.</p>

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<p>I am of two minds on the finding fit through visit question. Not to belabor what I've disucssed before, but D chose disastrously the first time, largely because a)she was of an anti-elitist mindset which ruled out places she would've thrived at, but mostly b) the school she went to rolled out the red carpets and did a great job of making her feel welcome. Lesson learned: admissions are not the rest of the school--don't judge by them.</p>

<p>In transfering, she went with her heart to really figure out where she " fit" and the two visits we made, to Oberlin and Wesleyan, confirmed her research--she would have fit perfectly at either. Ultimately, she chose by proximity to home and cities. Wes was a wonderful choice for her.</p>

<p>S felt the minute he set foot on the Columbia campus that this was where he wanted to be. Everything he read, heard, and experienced continued to confirm that. I tried to interest him in other types of schools, esp since his sister had had such a good experience at Wes. No go. LIke Momrath said on another thread, Haverford gave him hives; he liked Swarthmore much better, but still didn't like the smallness. Wes remained his favorite LAC because it's far bigger than the others and just felt livelier than them. We were stuck in Ann ARbor for four days becuase of the NE b lizzard, so he got lots of chance to see UMich. He liked it enough to make it his second choice. But nothing ever grabbed him like Columbia, (which was why ED made sense for him.)</p>

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<p>WW, to build on your dating service analogy, a dating service don't know nothing 'bout Chemistry (and don't know what a slide rule's for...). Which is why spending some time with the actual....</p>

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<p>Thank you all so much for your thoughtful and heart-"Felt" responses. We will visit as many as we can in advance because post-acceptance visits will be impossible on account of the school calendar where we live. </p>

<p>I think there is a type of person--I am one-- who decides by imagining herself into a situation and trying to decide --am I happy in this imagined place? Obviously, real physical input improves the quality of the imagined context. Personality of tour guide also exerts a big influence. I was an English major and was very influenced in choosing my alma mater by the poem (Emily Dickinson's) that graced the frontpiece of the catalog.</p>

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<p>pye...my son had to apply without visiting all of his schools. In fact, he has only visited one because he went to debate camp there. Unlike my first son, who went to a program in VA over the summer of his junior year and hit several schools then, and needed one trip to PA where he hit three more; my second has a group of mid-sized unis and a few LACs that ring the coast line in a huge circle. We've relied on guidebooks, video CDs, CC reviews from other students and parents, and the feel he gets from his interaction with the uni staff during the application process. We decided that it would be best to see to which he was accepted and then plan a visit. His debate schedule wouldn't allow for a series of fall trips anyway, even if we had an unlimited budget.</p>

<p>My first son saw two PA schools on a beautiful fall day, and the third on a dreary rainy day, but still loved the third---which is where he decided to attend.</p>

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<p>On paper and on CC and in viewbooks, etc... Georgetown looked like a great fit for our S, who is a bright political kid who wants an urban experience. Within an hour of our half-day visit there, however, we all looked at each other and agreed without speaking: Not right for him. A day later, we arrived at UChicago, which on paper seemed great, too. Within five minutes of entering the student eating area, we knew S would find many kindred souls. My H and S are "thinking" types (they remember the facts and numbers from the admissions presentations and tours and guidebooks), while I'm a feeling type (I remember the way the warm October light came down from the high windows and struck the dark hardwood floors and how it made all the students in the UChicago bagel shop look like there was no better way to spend a Friday afternoon than discussing Kant with friends over bagels). Yet all three of us are N's ("intuitives") on the Briggs-Meyer scale, and we just "knew" the right schools for S when we were there.</p>

<p>I recommend visiting to everyone; if not before you apply then before you make your final decision (like an admit day). As others have said, it's not the end of the world if you don't or can't visit. Most students easily adapt, but we're spending more than $100K on this kid's education, and, well, I wouldn't buy a car without driving it... why would I spend that kind of money if I didn't know that there was a good chance S would feel like he belonged at his college? The idea of him wanting to transfer after a year because of a bad fit doesn't thrill me either (of course, there's no guarantees he won't want to even after visiting!).</p>

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<p>Columbia was her #1 on paper...she wound up not applying, though she did apply to Barnard, right across the street. She didn't like NYU. </p>

<p>TheDad,</p>

<p>We had the same experience. In her head and on paper, she loved Columbia (sister being a Columbia grad did not help). When she got there, went visited classes, she was not feeling Columbia even though she loved, and applied to Barnard across the street. She spent a whole semester attending classes at NYU (another at Barnard) while she enjoyed her class at NYU, she just did not feel connected to the school.</p>

<p>She had an such an idealized view of Harvard and Yale and felt a little let down once she went to visit. She has friends at both schools that told her to come back for a few days and attend classes to get the lay of the land and it still wasn't enough to sway her to even apply.</p>

<p>I think sometimes you gotta go with your gut. When she visited Williams, Amherst and Dartmouth she just knew that they would be great fits for her. She went back to visit Williams 3 times and by the time she applied she knew all of the Adoms by name. (Oh, I having a Williams flashback, but she is at Dartmouth and loving it, so I am going to be a loyal Dartmouth parent)</p>

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<p>Wow Woodwork- 21 schools with returns to several!! That's a daunting task! If we lived in the NE, as I did growing up, we'd probably have visited more schools, merely because there were so many good schools that were under consideration by my s. at one point in time. As they are in a concentrated area up there, it is far easier to do. As it was, we visited 13, and my s. had spent time on 2 other campuses that didn't require a visit. And while I agree, in the ideal world, the visit is very, very helpful, it just simply isn't practical for a lot of people, especially if you live overseas. I am reminded of the thread about the satisfaction ratings of students who didn't get into their first choice, and the large majority were very, very happy at the schools they matriculated in. So, as the lyrics say," if you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with". I think most students can be happy at many schools. If you can identify major variables that would be important (size, climate, urban/rural, or the reputation of the department you plan to spend your time with) I truly think most students can be happy in many places. There is probably more than one "fit". So, to the OP, by virtue of the fact that you are on CC, you are obviously doing a lot of research, and will probably have a good "feel " from that process. You are obviously doing your homework.
I was going to draw an analogy to arranged marriages and mail-order brides, but I think I'll skip that... :)</p>

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<p>All 3 of our kids fell in love with a school virutally upon stepping on a campus, & 2/3 refused to get out of the car at 1 or more schools. I don't think you can choose a place to live for 4 years without seeing it, & preferably seeing the other students, tasting the food, seeing where you'll live etc. Macattak - you might want to look at Virginia Tech. Our last child sounds like yours - great stats etc., but doesn't want a pressure cooker school. He loved VT because of the laid back atmosphere, & thought the "Ware Labs" were the best engineering labs we saw. He will attend there this coming fall.</p>

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<p>From a student's point of view...</p>

<p>In tenth grade, I saw William and Mary for the first time and loved it. It reeked of academia and passion. After reading about several other schools, though, the place where I KNEW I would spend four years at was Kenyon College. I loved everything I had read about it and knew that my grades, ECs (not test scores so much), and a strong interest in the school would give me a great chance come fall of senior year. </p>

<p>I visited Kenyon twice, which was a big deal since it was seven hours away by car. After each, I ended up spending an inordinate amount of time trying to convince myself that it was everything I wanted and everything that the college guides had said it was -- a small, excellent liberal arts college with dedicated faculty and passionate students. While the campus was beautiful and the kids friendly, I couldn't picture myself being happy in the middle of nowhere on a campus where I found drinking to be a common hobby.</p>

<p>So after all the guides and surveys and visits, I found myself still in love with an old favorite. I applied early to W&M and am so happy that I realized that the place for me was right in my backyard (well, three hours away...but you get the picture). Who knew?</p>

<p>Visits made the difference for me. If I hadn't visited Kenyon, I probably wouldn't have taken advantage of ED at W&M and might not have made the cut in the spring round. </p>

<p>Good luck to all of you and your kids.</p>

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<p>I mean, you can imagine the situation of a poor inner city kid who is the first in his family to go to college and who excels in school and wins admission to an Ivy ... but can't afford to visit.... you certainly wouldn't advise the kid to turn down Harvard because he was uncertain about the "fit"</p>

<p>Colleges with deep pockets have the resources and money set aside to underwrite the coast of a student in this situation to visit the college for admitted students/ preview days on them</p>

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<p>Sybbie, I was just creating a rather extreme example... but as long as we are at it, imagine for the moment that the Harvard prospie is an international student with plenty of money, but coming form a country from which travel to the US is difficult because of visa requirements .... it's hard enough to get a student visa these days without going through the added process of a tourist visa the prior year. </p>

<p>The point is, there are situations which make it very hard to visit. If my own kid wanted to study at Oxford, I don't believe I would think it particularly important that she visit, first (though actually it doesn't cost that much more for us west coasters to fly to London than to New York). I'd figure that she would adjust, and what can possibly be wrong with Oxford, in any case? </p>

<p>I understand why people's comfort level is increased when they have visited.... but this is partly from a self-derived myth of the "one true place" (analogous to "one true love"). My kids didn't get any say whatsoever about what town they grew up in, and since they have attended public schools, choices were rather limited as well. (Do you want to attend the small high school up the road, or the larger one down the road?). They did fine. </p>

<p>My son did not visit any colleges before applying; his plan was to visit in the spring of senior year, and only visit the colleges he was seriously considering - so he visited 3. As noted above, he felt a "fit" with the college he chose... but apparently that particular fit came with an expiration date. </p>

<p>Like most California kids, my son also applied to U.C. and checked off 3 campuses on his application form. My daughter has no intention whatsoever of going to UC.... and I am sure she will apply, and probably also check off 2 or 3 choices for campuses. It is simply what you do when you live here, because of a basic cost/benefit analysis: UC may not be your dream school, but it sure makes a good backup; it is affordable; and it has enough prestige so that you know that a UC degree will be taken seriously by any prospective graduate school or employer. "Fit" or not, UC is where my daughter will end up if she can't get sufficient financial aid to attend a private college. My son turned down his 1st choice and "perfect fit" college because they offered no financial aid at all... there was never any discussion whatsoever. No money, no choice. </p>

<p>I guess for some kids, "fit" is a luxury -- I do know that there are thousands of kids attending the local UC and CSU campuses simply because those are the closest to home - their goal is to get an education, and they don't have to look much beyond the course catalog and list of majors to find out whether that goal can be met at their chosen school. </p>

<p>I do believe that we can all learn from bad experiences as well as good. I'd be a little hesitant if the college was very unusual or very remote -- but we also read of plenty of cases of kids who were unhappy with their colleges the first semester or first year, stuck it out, and then ended up doing very well. So a little resiliency and adaptability on the part of the student is not necessarily a bad thing. </p>

<p>One more thing: if you are looking for a college that is a perfect "fit", then I would say -- make sure that it is also a safety. Visiting is a lot of fun -- but a perfect "fit" + a rejection letter = profound disappointment.</p>

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<p>if you are looking for a college that is a perfect "fit", then I would say -- make sure that it is also a safety. Visiting is a lot of fun -- but a perfect "fit" + a rejection letter = profound disappointment</p>

<p>This is paramount. My daughter's safety was literally walking istance from our house.</p>

<p>Your kids can be happy in a number of places, I used to tell people that my daughter can fall asleep any where. Some people make multiple visits, and are miserable once the "live" there.</p>

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<p>My S waited to visit schools until his senior year and had supposed he would attend his highly ranked State school - until he visited. He absolutely hated it. After finding this board, we visited 2 schools recommended here and he loved both of them. He's been accepted into one and is waiting to hear from the other one.</p>

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<p>We've had one major surprise - a school that, on paper, seemed perfect for my daughter. When we arrived, she went along with the interview but it was clear that the feel of the school was not right for her almost immediately. In this case, the students were too preppy for her and the adcom presentations focused on careers like pre-law, etc. It wasn't anything that she could have gleaned from the fancy marketing catalogs which tend to show ALL kids as being clean cut and happy. </p>

<p>Since then, we have tried whenever possible to get a hold of the collegiate choice video's before we visit (collegiatechoice.com). Although they are somewhat amateurish in quality, they do seem to do a pretty decent job of giving you something of a "feel" for the school. I have found that if the video doesn't grab her, then the school frequently won't when we visit. On the other hand, a few schools where the video has left a neutral opinion on her part have turned out to have the "feel" she wants when we actually visited. I think the video's are a good second choice if you can't visit.</p>

<p>My daughter has also found that she can also tell a lot about the "feel" of schools from reading the school's livejournal sites (<a href="http://www.livejournal.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.livejournal.com&lt;/a&gt;) and from reading back issues of the college newspaper online. She has emailed people posting on some livejournal sites and gotten some great information and insights that way.</p>

<p>When we started visiting schools last summer, I really hoped that we'd have some "flukes" in there but now I am becomming convinced that the chance of a "fluke" appearing are not worth the cost of visiting schools in person just to see if she might like them. We would end up traipsing all over the country with very little return. So, our new rule of thumb is that she has to have the gut instinct through her online research that a school might be a fit before we visit. If another school happens to be nearby, we may sneak it in as well but I don't think we are going to get "lucky" and find something perfect that way.</p>

<p>Luckily, my daughter identified fairly quickly after a few college visits what she is looking for and it is not a feel that is available on many college campuses so we have narrowed things down that way. I think she will probably end up applying to at least two schools that we will not visit until after she is admitted.</p>

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<p>I’d say the ideal route is to visit during the school year, overnight at one or two top choices and go back after you’re accepted for a second look. Unfortunately for those of us living overseas (or even on opposite coasts) this sequence isn’t feasible both due to time and money so we’ve had to make do with one first and last look. I sincerely feel that as long as you’ve done a fair amount of research a one-shot gut reaction impression is a good indicator, especially on the negative column. So many attributes that look good on paper or in the website or glossy just don’t pan out in person. The success of the “feel-thing” may also mean that kids usually do end up liking their colleges once they adjust and that there is more than one good choice out there.</p>

<p>The problem for us far-away families often comes after the acceptances arrive and there’s no clear first choice. That’s when the collegiate choice videos and on-line communication with students and faculty can really help in the decision making process.</p>

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<p>Carolyn, has your daughter ever thought of Evergreen as a safety?
Or is that school too out there?</p>

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<p>All of this reminds me that I bought my last car without test driving it, though I didn't pick the color until I saw units in all the color options.</p>