Research vs. "Feel" when you visit

Parents Forum
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<p>There have been a number of posts that have indicated some rather extreme, but real, instances of a student not being able to visit a school before making a choice. Obviously, theses students will have to pick the school “behind the curtain” if they want to go to a school they cannot make the acquaintance of, before having committed to them.</p>

<p>However, it seems rather cynical to suggest that a student’s comfort level would not rise substantially it they were given the option of actually viewing/knowing the school and making an individual choice based on their own observation/interaction (and what’s with the slam on true-love, perfect fit and long term commitment? My wife will not be happy with thee of little faith).</p>

<p>To my knowledge, there is also no reason why a student would have to attend a school either over-seas, or really even on opposite coasts; I have a rather generous view of universities. I, like many people posting, believe that there are many schools that could be a great fit with a particular student. However, for the sake of the students well being and decision making, it seems that they should have spent some time with what will be the first truly big commitment of their lives---leading to future commitments.</p>

<p>No student has to visit a school before attending, I suppose their could even be an argument made that a student need not even be given a choice at all; as has been noted, the students were unlikely to have been given a choice in the high-school they were going to attend. However, it may be that making a choice about what college they will attend is not just about “what college they will attend” but even more about making grand and significant choices; this will probably be their first one and thus one of the most significant ones of their lives. </p>

<p>They will likely meet their first spouse at this school—long term friends—professional contacts and develop their first independent long term loyalty to something larger than themselves. Yeah, to me it’s very romantic indeed, requiring more than a look though the brochures and the latest consumer products report. </p>

<p>Although I do agree with all of the people who say that children are resilient and will find a way to like, if not love, whatever school they will attend (most of the time) it does not seem that being resilient is the whole story, nor even the most important part of the tale.</p>

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<p>Their "first" spouse???? So much for true love and long term committment.......</p>

<p>I never said visiting wasn't important and useful; I said it wasn't absolutely essential. If you posit the remedy to be that the students shouldn't consider overseas or opposite coast schools, rather than forego a visit.... well, I just have to say that I'm glad that my globetrotting family doesn't have that point of view. If the answer is to close the door on opportunity because you are afraid to take a risk.... well, I guess you are talking to the wrong person. I like traveling & exploring new places; my kids like doing the same.</p>

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<p>I'm with Calmom. I don't see anyone here in any of these posts saying that a visit isn't helpful. Of course it is. I don't see anyone being cynical. I see people being practical. Aside from the cost of coming across the ocean to visit, for a HS senior trying to meet all their sr yr academic and EC requirements, that simply may not be a manageable time committment. Again, of COURSE a visit is extremely helpful. I don't think you'll get an argument from anyone on that one, except in those few instances where one bad experience on a campus left you with a bad taste in our mouth, and tainted the whole visit. I agree that first impressions can be good or bad. Sounds like many of us were greeted by that same grouch at the admissions desk at Amherst last year. Add to that the fact that our tourguide was absolutely terrible, and virtually useless (but we all know where her boyfriend lives. Gee- that was helpful). This was counterbalanced by a good experience with the faculty and staff in the deparment my s. was considering, but the first 2 bad experiences put Amherst further down on the list. Who knows- it could have been the BEST place for my s.- he could have met the next president if the US and his future wife (maybe even as one and the same person!), but the visit was a negative experience for him. Oh well. </p>

<p>I think that the OP is asking for some guidance,and some reassurance,that if a visit isn't possible, can their child can still have a good college experience. And yes, of course they can. Like Calmom, I find the suggestion that maybe if you can't visit a school you shouldn't look past your immediate area silly, if not cynical. </p>

<p>How many of our ancestors jumped on a boat and came to the US to make the best of their lives? Maybe this is a bad analogy, but you can have great experiences in lots of places. I visited all my potential colleges before I applied, but not my grad schools. I only visited the ones that required interviews, and chose the grad school I attended sight unseen. I think I did ok. </p>

<p>So, if you can visit schools, by all means do. But if it just isn't possible, you can make reasoned decisions with the information available to you in books, websites, catalogs, videos, etc. Gee, we didn't have half this stuff available when my generation looked at colleges, and ya know, people did ok. In many cases the fact that you even have a choice in where to go to school can be a luxury. </p>

<p>Last thought. A lot of this has to do with individual personality style. Some of us are detail-oriented, and go about the college search like a research project, trying to look at every variable. Others, are more relaxed about it, and may take a more cavalier approach. Neither is right or wrong- just different.</p>

<p>So, OP, yes "feel" is extremely helpful, but not essential. Best of luck.</p>

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<p>Jym - I like your analogy about the ancestors who jumped on the boat - in fact I had almost included a comment about my great-grandfather in my last post, but then deleted it, thinking that it was silly simply because it IS such a common part of many of our backgrounds.</p>

<p>I also applied to law school sight unseen. I had a friend who went to Harvard Law and hated it... but he got a great education and has had a wonderful career. </p>

<p>And my mother went to a Seven Sister college where she was so miserably unhappy and did so poorly that she dropped out after sophomore year. But she did meet my Dad while on the East Coast; she dropped out to marry him at age 19. Bad college choice (we all agree that she would have been much happier at Stanford)...... but I'm kind of glad my mom made that mistake; the marriage worked out o.k. And as far as "feel" goes, I'm sure that the last thing in the world my mom would have seen on a visit to an all-female campus was that it was the place that would lead to her meeting her future husband.</p>

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<p>This is a great thread. We have had similar experiences. For DS his research yielded pretty much what he saw when he visited the schools (he was looking at music and conservatory programs so his was a narrower search). For DD, so far (she's a hs junior) the visits have been interesting. At U of Richmond she didn't want to get out of the car....she hated it (based on what???). She came on the tour anyway....but left hating it. Ditto Wake Forest (similar architecture??). She reluctantly came on the tour of U of South Carolina and ended up LOVING the place. She thought she would hate Davidson (too small) but ended up liking it as well. Her overall favorite so far was College of Charleston...everything about it was a plus including a fabulous tour guide which can make ALL the difference. We still have schools to visit and it's interesting to see how she is narrowing the list down. To be honest, I've seen NO pattern. It's comments like "how about we go visit ____ U?" Or...look at this mailing ugh. I will say that DS made his college choice and to this day I don't know what made him choose the school he's at. BUT he's happy, and feels he's learning what he needs to learn. Hope DD turns out as well.</p>

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<p>dstark,
I had her look at Evergreen's web site - she thought it sounded like a possible fit, but she didn't like the no grades part. A definite turnoff to her. I think that's unfortunate because she's just the type of person who would love the integrated curriculum. </p>

<p>Oh well, maybe as we move along she'll reconsider.</p>

<p>This weekend, however, she took a gander at Humboldt state's web site and liked what she saw very much. Although bigger than she wants, they have some of the feel she wants, an excellent art program, a solid history department, and an undergrad social work major (a new possible interest for her). It would be a definite safety for her as well. (She won't be applying to UCSC, another probable good fit, because she doesn't want to take the SAT II's).</p>

<p>If anyone has any thoughts or info. on Humboldt, I'd appreciate hearing them!</p>

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<p>All over these boards it is suggested that their are many "perfect" schools: east coast, west coast and over seas. Reading them, many may come to believe that no matter where you live you will find very good schools.....that "fit."
However, it may be that, for whatever reason, none of these schools is "the" school. So many of us will begin to consider schools far and wide. It seems unlikely but not impossible that those considering distant schools will know them somehow to be a far better "fit" than those schools in their own region without having actually been to any of them.
It doesn't seem outrageos to think that you may want to visit this distant school to see if it is as you imagine it to be... that is travel, for those who like to travel in any case, without having to leap into a ship and risk life and limb for a new beginning, though I would applaud the courage and ambition of those who do.
I suppose the travel issue is most crucial to those on the left coast: ivies and many great LAC's being on the more established east coast (though it undoubtedly goes both ways). I wouldn't think anyone would be making a bad choice in choosing any one of them. They are certainly all good choices. But, I cannot see where the perfection of anyone of those choices would not rise when actually having experienced them for yourself; I guess I don't know why anyone would not prefer to have visited the school they are about to give their future to, if they, by any means, can. Even if after having visited and matriculated you find that it was not a good choice you will not bemoan the fact that you didn't get to see the school functioning for yourself before you made the choice.
Beyond doubt we have become a nation that follows its fortune more than its heart. We relocate away from family or friends for careers and colleges. That being the case, I would think you should feel comfort with the sacrifice you will make.
But I agree with Calmom and Jym, there are no absolutes, there are only preferences. Not everyone needs to feel somehow physically/emotionally connected to the choices they make before they have been made. Some of us live dangerously and well. Some of us are more cautious and conservative with what we get and give. I hope I have not said that there is only one way to decide, I believe all the imformation you can have is likely, though not always, to be in the best interest of the decision you are contemplating.
Moreover, I did not mean to imply that "dating services" are bad. I'm sure many people find the perfect match through them......even arranged marrigages have a noble history of success and longevity.
College choices are certainly no more exact or fool-proof than these, so there is no sense in being dogmatic about how to make a college choice. Although, no matter that your first marriage is only your first, or your first and last, you will probably not have gone into it having never previously meet.....even if people who care deeply for you have arranged and, or, approved it.</p>

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<p>Carolyn, the son of good friends, someone we've known since he and D were in pre-school a year apart is at CS/Humboldt and is absolutley blossoming there as a late bloomer. This is a kid who grunted his way through high school playing video games and is now looking at becoming an English major.</p>

<p>Though a major Arrrgh! to your D for being floggin-headed about not taking the SAT II's.</p>

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<p>TheDad - in defense of Carolyn's daughter, the SAT II's loom as a rather large barrier to my daughter, too. My daughter juggled her course schedule so she could spend a semester abroad this past fall (her junior year) - but as a result is not taking courses that the SAT II's cover until next year. She's become fluent in the language of her host country -- but that's not one of the languages that is tested by the SAT II .... so she is looking at either using study guides to bone up for tests in courses she has yet to take, like US History ... or foregoing the test and therefore her UC eligibility. It's frustrating, because IMHO its a waste of time for her to waste time reading an outline to take a test in a class she won't have until next year. Right now she is taking an AP & 2 honors classes, but not in subjects covered by the SATIIs. I'm frustrated that the tests have become more important than the student --- every private college that I've looked at that requires SAT II's will accept the ACT in lieu of them -- but the UC system still requires the SAT II's.</p>

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<p>TheDad, my daughter's guidance counselor has also "Arrghed" at her - mainly because it is assumed at her school that EVERYONE wants to apply to the UC's. She has zero interest in applying to the UC's and, at this point, none of the schools she is seriously interested in require the SAT IIs or even recommend them. </p>

<p>She feels that the time she would have to spend prepping for the SAT II subject tests is better spent prepping for the SAT I and the ACT. Right now, she is going to take the new SAT in March and then again in either May or June. And, remember, prepping for the SAT is now prepping for a three way test (math, reading and writing) so it's more time consuming, especially as she needs to do a lot of work to get her math scores up to an acceptable range. She is also planning to take the ACT in April as well. I am not sure there is much sense in throwing in another round of tests with the SAT II's if she doesn't need them.</p>

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<p>My D and I had a great time visiting schools. She had some pre-established criteria, minimum 3,000 students ( 2x high school), strong academics and good women's sports program. She culled through schools in two college guides, we made our list and headed out through New York, Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Jersey, Pennsylvania and Maryland. The week after Easter 2004 the two of us were on the road for 8 days. W and younger S stayed at home. We listened to Harry Potter books-on-tape, which D had read but I had not. 12 schools in 8 days, although 2 were pure "drive-bys."
D and I had a great time together. I am not just saying that - she has said the same thing to others. A little Dad & D bonding time. This was purely an initial "warm-up" trip, with informations sessions and tours only. We on or own would also do tours of the surrounding area, at least at the schools that were truly of interest.
I had a fun myself, seeing schools that I had always heard of but had never seen. I am looking forward to doing it again in 5 years with younger S.</p>

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<p>For many lucky families, the college visits are a wonderful, bonding experience. We have had some trips like that. In fact, you can make them into a very nice mini vacation or a chance to visit some friends and family or former neighbors that you may not ever come to see. We spent 3 glorious days in Santa Fe, where I always wanted to go, but would never have gone when S looked at the college there. The ballon rides, the art shows, the shopping, the food, the Indian culture were wonderful as was the downtown restaraunt caberet the college put on, and we got to see "Proof" which I really had wanted to see on Broadway--and for no charge. We stayed at an unusual hotel in the cultural district and ate like fiends. Since we used frequent flyers, the cost was just the hotel and food, and some sundries. We loved it.</p>

<p>But sometimes, ya feel like "what a great college visit, too bad The Kid had to come along." My H had some college visits to hell with my older son, and my nephew was no treat either. It's wonderful when it's an enjoyable experience for all, but don't be too shocked or upset if your student feels put upon when you are going through all of this expense and trouble for him. It's the age, the hormones, it's normal.</p>

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<p>Jamimom, I assume the school you're talking about in Santa Fe is the College of Santa Fe. If so, what did you think? My daughter has received some literature from them and while it isn't a fit for her (limited majors) it seems like an interesting place for people who are interested in certain fields.</p>

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<p>We visited them on a "fiesta weekend" when they had many fun filled activities. The kids were funky, the college is tiny, half the campus has brand new fantastic buildings, the other half is a dump. Very interesting majors, and they are a moving force in the city of Santa Fe which has an enormous arts following despite the size of only about 65,000 people. Their visual and performing arts programs have a lot of clout in an artsy town. The other liberal arts seem to be small and not at all strong. The campus is in a suburb indistinguishable from our main suburban drive, but when you go a couple of miles in the city, it is a whole different world. You certainly get a lot of diversity at this school in just about every way possible. The biggest draw is making the transition to this remarkable city from the school, since the school is definitely integrated well in the arts scene.</p>

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<p>Thanks Jamimom, that pretty much fit with how they present themselves as well. Sounds like a neat little school for the right type of person.</p>

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<p>I'm sorry...it sounded as if Carolyn's D was just being arbitrary about not wanting to take SAT II's and therefor eliminating any college that wants them. Calmom, it certainly makes no sense to take SAT II's before one has taken the requisite work. But Writing, a Math, and a History seem as if they would be nearly universally appropriate, with the possibility of a Science in many cases.</p>

<p>We made our college trips as vacation-like as possible, having a weekend of vacation in NYC at the end of the most rigorous. It was a good bonding experience all the way around.</p>

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<p>TheDad, Nope, not arbitrary --- Once you get past the very top tier of colleges in the U.S. and the UC's, very few colleges actually require or consider the SAT II's. She's not aiming at the top tier (doesn't have the grades and EC's for that) and has ruled out the UC's, so I think she should be OK. Believe me, if she needs them, I will force her to take them! :) And keep in mind that the writing SAT II is no longer an option once the new SAT gets rolling.</p>

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<p>Responding to references to overseas education:</p>

<p>It can be tough to arrange a visit. We haven't visited Oxford. If S chooses to attend, we may do so before October, but I would rather save my money to pay the freight. </p>

<p>I think that having a sense of adventure is important, and I hope that he will evaluate the prospect in this light as the other decisions come in - an opportunity for an unparalleled undergraduate education with the added bonus of expansion in other dimensions, such as values, self-concept, and culture. I wouldn't want him to reject the offer due to trepidation, but only if he is convinced that another college would be better. I have encouraged him to talk to people who have lived and studied there, read the descriptions of Fresher's Week and the Alternative Prospectus, learn about the ECs and clubs, etc., to get a feel of it in other ways. Besides, it is cool to wear Hogwarts robes every night for high table, go to London for the weekend, listen to Henry Higgins diction every day, and get a single the first year!</p>

<p>The Harvard alumnui interviewer asked S where else he applied, and because the man's wife had attended Oxford, the interviewer knew that the app date is 10/15 & the decision arrives before Xmas, so he naturally inquired about the result. When S told him that he had been accepted, he asked "why Oxford?" Wrapping up his answer, S concluded ".....so my mother allowed me to apply there so that she could keep me away from the draft!" They had a good laugh. However, if you "check out de real situation" (nods to The Prophet Bob Marley) it may not be a bad idea to sit out the next few years abroad. We were also going to apply to McGill, Melbourne, and Auckland, but ran out of steam after too many apps. </p>

<p>I think more students should consider applying abroad for undergraduate education. For those of you who have lived overseas, you know that the US is really pretty isolated, e.g. we have to work hard at becoming bilingual, we don't have a clear perspective about how our country's policies are viewed abroad, we don't meet many people from the EU, etc., etc. I've told my son that if he attends, it will be an experiment in social engineering with a very small sample size.</p>

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<p>My good friend's D did not take SAT2s either. She knew she wanted a LAC, and the list she and her Dad put together did not require them. She focused on her grades, her school life and SAT1s instead which gave her a higher quality of life. Her first choice school was Kenyon where she applied ED and got in. She also had some catholic schools and other LACs waiting in the wings if it did not work out, but all went well.</p>

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<p>Daughter of a great friend graduated from College of Santa Fe a few years back. D was very bright, but for a variety of reasons did not apply herself consistently in HS. </p>

<p>The school has a limited and unique set of majors and programs. Very strong programs in theatre, film, and something called contemporary music, which appears to be a pop/jazz/world music sort of program. Art department is supposed to be good, too. Overall, these departments are very savvy about the relationship of technology to contemporary arts and entertainment.</p>

<p>I think CSF is a decent choice for students interested in the music, film or theatre businesses but don't have the stats for USC, UCLA, NYU, etc. though not sure if I would recommend it otherwise. </p>

<p>My friend's D and several of her friends have moved to L.A. and are among the young movers and shakers in the film, music and advertising businesses there.</p>