S considering switching major; H greatly disappointed

Parents Forum
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<p>Sigh. FRUSTRATED! </p>

<p>Posting this thread mostly to air my thoughts out - feel free to add opinions or support, if you wish.</p>

<p>S is finishing freshman year. Started as a math major with possible intent of teaching high school math. Was a stand out in HS, Val , though at our public schools which are only so competitive. Tough adjustment to college first semester socially especially - lonely, tough time fitting in and making friends. Better second semester - still not certain the school is a GREAT fit, but he seems happy enough - has a roommate for next year and is already looking to secure work study ahead of time. </p>

<p>Cal 2 was a BEAR. He got through it with a "C". Didn't care for the instructor. Took Calc 3 this semester - ended up dropping late last week - this instructor not much help and he worked hard but was struggling. He feels he is good at the math fundamentals, but has trouble taking it steps farther once it gets very complicated. Does not feel natural to him. He also took an introductory Education class - which includes weekly observation hours in a HS class - it doesn't seem to thrill him. </p>

<p>S has on his own make appts with 2 other depts at school he thinks he may have interest in. Sports Business and Pre-Law. He asked many questions and is planning to take a class in each 1st semester sophomore year to "explore" further. S had considered retaking Calc 3 that semester as well, but honestly I can tell he is drained, defeated and not interested. His dad is FURIOUS. Honestly, I think it is H's dream that he wants S to be a math guy. H LOVES math and is good at it - HE should be the math teacher! H thinks S is making a big mistake future job wise (I'm not sure why - our local public schools are cutting teachers left and right). H CANNOT understand why S at not even 19 yrs. isn't certain what he wants to do with his life. ARRRG! </p>

<p>Yesterday, H was even talking transferring for S. He feels the math dept. where he is is not good (maybe true) and has turned S off to math. Personally, I just think that S, like many students - me included when I was a freshman - just discovered that something they shined in in high school, isn't their thing when it gets to college level. </p>

<p>H feels S has a "gift" for math. I say he just happened to be good at the fundamentals and in his not terribly competitive high school he shined and looked like the math whiz. S has MANY gifts. He is a tremendous writer, loves debate and public speaking and is a real people person. He is at a Liberal Arts small private and I feel he still have "time" to explore other options. If he would transfer and give the math a try, what do we do when he says, "yep, I'm certain now! I even hate Math at school B!".</p>

<p>H is being so unreasonable. I don't know why he can't be "proud" of S for things other than math. Right away, he threw the idea of law out the door - too many lawyers. Sports business (son is passionate about all things sports including, behind the scenes, promoting a team, statistics, etc.) to him is a quick road to no job (I did tell son that whatever direction he chooses, he must work hard to STAND OUT - ALL jobs are competitive these days).</p>

<p>H at this point I think is also blaming me for "supporting" son's idea of not pursuing math. S is torn between what he knows is not a passion and not pleasing his dad. And on top of that, he just is feeling crappy about himself in that he, who had a 4.6 in high school has had to drop a class. </p>

<p>I just want him to look ahead. Plan a semester of classes that might excite him. Take a semester away from Calc and see if he misses it. Maybe consider a minor in math if it would help a major (like Sports Business).</p>

<p>Again, I know you have no answers for me. Hard to break through my husband's "wall" right now. But I just needed to get some of that out on "paper" - haha - or on CC "paper".</p>

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<p>Well you know the husband is the problem not the son. This is soooo common. College math is a whole order of magnitude harder than high school math, and many, many students hit a wall sooner than they expect. Even my husband (biology and physics double major) talks about the last math course he took and how he was so relieved he took it pass/fail because he barely passed. It was past Calc 3, but not as far along as a math major would have had to go. </p>

<p>I like the idea of taking a break from math, with the possibility open of going back. I know the first time I took Calculus (in high school) it seemed hard - I did well, but bombed the AP. I took a 3 year break, retook it and it was an easy A.</p>

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<p>Sadly, mathmom, your first sentence appears to be true! S feels he is inadequate because he doesn’t know “what he wants to be” when 1/4 of his college years are about to pass. The pressure of his dad at this point, is only making him feel worse. Me too. :(</p>

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<p>Sigh. I wish I had had the luxury of being unhappy that one of mine was simply changing a major. By the time they got through with me, I would have been happy with a basket weaving major. They were majoring in getting out of college with a degree in 4 years and I didn’t care what the major was. </p>

<p>As for being wired for math, I have one who is. He did not go to college planning on being a math major and was a B student in high school even in math. Tested out of Calc1 and 2 and aced Calc 3 and Lin Alg his freshman year. He was truly unusual in that regard and had the math department after him. At his school, calc is not an easy subject. So the level of being good a math can vary. There are some incredible math talents out there. Even with his talents, son finds the math courses he is now taking very difficult and time consuming and isn’t sure he will be a math major but an econ major with a math concentration. You gotta enjoy it too, if you are going to make it a main part of your life. He just doesn’t enjoy it enough. </p>

<p>So for your son, it just might be that the time and effort involved to take those math courses isn’t worth it to him. Doesn’t like it enough or tolerate it enough. That the course is difficult is usually an indicator that it is being taught at a pretty high level. I am more concerned with calc courses that rush through the concepts and do not provide a foundation for future math courses. It is possible that your son’s high school math course did not prepare him properly for college level calc, and skipping calc 1 was probably not a wise thing to have done. Calc 2 at college is usually for those who are fresh out of calc 1, and they start off running. If some of the concepts were rusty or not well covered in your son’s case, he was in for some trouble. </p>

<p>I agree it’s your DH that has the problem. He has some set ideas about his son that his son does not share. Happens all of the time. Kids change their majors many times. If he takes a break from math, it might be wise for him to audit a course over the summer, maybe a review of Calc 3 before taking Linear Algebra or whatever course that does have Calc 3 has a prerequisite.</p>

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<p>This reminds me so much of my ex-father-in-law who wanted his sons to be engineers like him. His rigidity really strained his relations with his son.</p>

<p>First son (my ex-husband) had a passion for sports and writing. Dad was sure he would be penniless and shook his head for many years. He got his journalism degree from Mizzou and has had with a very successful career first in sports PR, now with a large state agency.</p>

<p>Second son wanted to major in marketing; he is a very personable guy. After graduation, he couldn’t find a job at first; dad offered to pay for more school if he would go back for engineering. Son refused and it caused a huge rift in the family. He stuck it out, working menial hotel front desk jobs and is now the general manager of a beautiful hotel in San Antonio.</p>

<p>Kids need to be allowed to do what they are passionate about.</p>

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<p>S took Calc 1 and Calc 2 in HS - straight A’s. Didn’t do so hot on the AP test, but got “college credit” for 1 and 2. We considered starting Calc 1 in college, but the math placement test at the college also advised him to start in Calc 2. So maybe we made the mistake there, but based on his previous grades and the placement test, we thought we made the right decision.</p>

<p>He explained to us SO CLEARLY last night his feelings and his own assessment of his math skills. He has realized that he has strong fundamentals of algebra, geometry and precalc/calc. - BUT he says, he is a memorizer - he does well memorizing steps, patterns, etc. to get the math done. That however does not work when he gets to more complicated problems. He said his Calc2 teacher said that that type of learning, will NOT work for more complicated calc. Hitting a brick wall in terms of his ability is exactly what I think has happened. </p>

<p>He is currently tutoring a HS junior a couple of times a week in Algebra 2 and some ACT prep. That, he is totally comfortable with. Does he LOVE it? It pays him well. :slight_smile: He likes it fine. But passion? No.</p>

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<p>It’s hard for a dad to give up a dream. Has your DH considered going back to school so that he can be the math teacher in the family? Plenty of older men make career changes! </p>

<p>Frankly, if Sports Business is what gets your son going, he should do Sports Business. Sounds exciting and sports is definitely a multi-billion dollar business that employs plenty of people! His math skills will be very useful, esp. as a lot of sports figures don’t seem to have much of a gift for it. Your son sounds like every agent I’ve ever met, literary, acting, sports, etc. Even if he winds up running a pro shop, or something, if he loves it he will work harder at it than drudging away in some high school somewhere hating every minute of his day and his students too! </p>

<p>As for pre-law, it’s <em>pre</em>-law, not law. Many people take pre-law and do other things with it, just like every pre-med student doesn’t wind up a doctor. </p>

<p>The important thing is that your son get that undergraduate degree and feels confident about his future. Tell him not to discuss this stuff with his father right now and if the conversation turns to it, your son should suddenly discover he’s late to class or a get-together. </p>

<p>Tell your DH that he needs to get over himself. You’re going to be in the middle, I’m sorry to say, and you’ll get it from both sides. But your husband cannot force your son to be anything except unhappy. I hope he soon sees that he doesn’t have a whole lot of control (I hope he’s not the sort who would yank funding if the son doesn’t obey) and becomes more reasonable.</p>

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<p>I would certainly be open to allowing son to utilize his math skills in other ways - whether it be majoring in an aspect of business - finances perhaps - or statistics - or the sports business program you mentioned - it does not have to be pure math. I have a cousin who was a math genius - majored in math at WPI with the idea of teaching hs math. He tried it after graduation - and hated it. He had a hard time teaching kids who were not focused and not listening to him - found it to be very frustrating. Teaching is not for everyone! He went back for a masters in computer science and now works for a government contractor doing something that is related to math and computers - but clearly not the path he originally envisioned. </p>

<p>I agree completely with dropping math for now - let him explore other options. Your husband needs to chill.</p>

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<p>I love you people. Thank you for the support and for giving me the words to help me tame my two men. “But your husband cannot force your son to be anything except unhappy” is a priceless sentence. </p>

<p>Obviously, this is all fresh and touchy at home right now. I know I will be monkey in the middle. H is the type who for a while will NOT be able to talk to me reasonably about it - he will have to be angry, pout, blame etc. - not trying to make him sound terrible, but this is sometimes his way. S has made such effort and strides with the whole college experience this year - of that, I am so proud. He is SO not a quitter. He has spent so much of his primary/secondary years being a stellar student, that I sometimes think it is hard for him to look outside of the "student’ realm and into the “professional” realm to see himself in career. </p>

<p>I also told son to get together a schedule, sign up for classes - whatever they might be, and there will be time to make changes over the summer if necessary. Calc 3 is not likely to fill up - his class he just dropped - started with 6 students. Sons leaving made it 5.</p>

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<p>Your son might find it helpful to talk to the prelaw advising office at his LAC. My husband and I are both lawyers, and there is still plenty of demand in the job market. First year lawyers at my husband’s firm make about four times more than math teachers per year.
I think that when your son settles in socially as a sophomore and takes some classes he connects with, your husband will come around.</p>

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<p>I would suggest that he do sports business, and decide whether he wants to go to law school later. IMO, there is no reason for anybody to do a pre-law major. It’s not like pre-med–there are not prerequisites for law school. </p>

<p>Are there really that many jobs for math majors–especially math majors who haven’t made top grades in math?</p>

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<p>If he’s interested in Law he may not want to do a pre-law major. I have heard many times that Law schools do not like to have students taught law in undergrad. Those who do well on the LSAT are often math/physics/philosophy majors. He could do Sports Management and still go to law school. A Sports lawyer? </p>

<p>Perhaps he should consider an Accounting class - lots of jobs in that field if he likes it. Probably required for the Sports Management program anyway.</p>

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<p>Not going to recount a whole long story here but one of my daughters changed majors, opting out of a career she was very sure about. It was painful for her – she thought she was letting everybody down. She is so much happier in her new major. She is still not sure what path in grad school she will pursue, and I think the uncertainty feels weird to her especially after being so “sure” about her initial plans out of high school. But I have tried to help her see that the uncertainty really means she has a number of paths to possibly pursue and that choice is good.
First semester sophomore year is a great time to explore. Still plenty of time to get the courses in for a new major. Tell your husband that if he continues with math and decides to switch out in junior year, he may not be graduating in four years with a new major. Maybe that will sway him!
Agree with above poster that his math skills won’t go to waste – he can always use them and even return to higher math one day if he so chooses.</p>

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<p>siliconvalleymom – How do you read the discrepancy between all the reports about no jobs for new lawyers vs. what you actually see?</p>

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<p>I noticed you said you son really enjoyed tutoring, etc… I see no reason why he couldn’t major in a science, minor in math and get a teaching certificate. No high school math teacher is going to need any math beyond what he already has. Just a practical thought, which may be useless to you.</p>

<p>On the psychological drama front: I realized a few years ago that my husband and daughters were going to have to come to a place where they had their own relationship having nothing to do with me. My standard response is simply, “You need to work it out with your daughter. You guys have to have your own relationship. This isn’t about me…blah, blah, blah.” This is the place where your son and his father find out that he is getting to be a grown up and it really doesn’t matter how the father wants to live the son’s life. Sometimes this can be messy for a while, but it doesn’t actually have anything to do with you. Good luck.</p>

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<p>Pre-Law is actually only offered as a minor at his school. So he would pair that up with a major. I think it mostly gives a good government, criminal justice type background. I did tell son that he could major in just about anything and then go onto law school if he was interested - personally, it seems to me that the sports business, with a strong writing background, a strong public speaking skill and an interest in math/statistics is a pretty good combination! </p>

<p>Maybe I’ll check out the career services at his school and see if maybe it’s worthwhile for him to make an appt. with them.</p>

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<p>The only reason I can see to take any kind of pre-law classes is to find out if it interests you. In law school, you pretty much start from scratch. A major that includes a reasonable amount of writing might help.</p>

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<p>What exactly is a “pre-law” major, since law schools do not require any specific major or course list of their applicants?</p>

<p>As far as pre-meds who do not get into medical school, those who majored in biology tend to find that job and career prospects are poor at the bachelor’s degree level. Majoring in biology for pre-med is like betting one’s entire undergraduate education on medical school, without much in the way of a backup plan.</p>

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<p>Your son’s high school experience sounds like my own. Well-meaning people told me, “you’re good at math, you should study engineering.” I knew that my math classes tended to be the classes I enjoyed least, but I heard the advice and saw the dollar signs and did engineering, anyway. I’m occasionally asked to advise kids regarding the possibility of an engineering career. My first question is usually, “why do you want to study engineering?” The response is usually, “I’m good at math.” Then I ask, “yes, but do you enjoy doing math?” If the answer is “no,” think long and hard.</p>

<p>I’ve warned my son about the well-meaning people he’ll encounter in his academic career (and sure enough, he’s encountered them). I’ve suggested that he refer them to me if they persist. Another conversation we’ve had is about his taking responsibility for his own happiness. I’ve told him that I’ll always have an opinion if he asks, but when making choices he will have to live with long after I am dead, he needs to learn how to “man up” and remind me it’s his life. I’ll get over it. Sounds like it’s that last part your H is having trouble with. I wish you the best.</p>

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<p>Is “pre-law” a major at your son’s school? Law students come from every major imaginable. So he could study econ or business or whatever and still take the LSAT and apply to law school. My law-school nephew majored in philosophy.</p>

<p>ETA:you already answered my questions, OP!</p>