<p>Even with the smiley face ?</p>
<p>fredo - I think you and D have ample protection against "rashness." It will be awhile before a transfer app. gets its response. D can keep her options open where she is (in case things change, or her perceptions change). Many, many folks transfer very happily.</p>
<p>It certainly doesn't sound like she is being rash - far from it. </p>
<p>
[quote]
pretty reasonable that a student who is not a sorority member would to want to transfer out of a school that is 75% Greek
[/quote]
I know I would feel that way. Nothing like a high % Greek for making a non-Greek feel "left out." And feeling left out is a tough experience, no matter what the age.</p>
<p>1sokker: I know! Try starting a thread on the topic! LOL.</p>
<p><<uva which="" is="" considered="" to="" be="" perhaps="" the="" preppiest="" state="" university="" in="" country="">></uva></p>
<p>Try in the universe, maybe. At least they have a competitive basketball team . . . oops, strike that. </p>
<p>Sorry for the intrusion, just feeling a little frisky heading into my favorite 3 weeks of the year.</p>
<p>fredo, I feel soooo sorry for your D. I remember reading about her sorority-rush and the classy manner in which she dealt with the situation. I agree with others -who think she should start the transfer process. But in the mean time she could look for a small job preferably on campus. The work environment may give her an opportunity to meet other independent (non-Greek) students. Please give her a big hug from a cyber-friend.</p>
<p>I started as skeptical agnostic on the subject of women's colleges and, yes, within the students they serve, they strive for inclusivity. The environment is far healthier, imo, than a Greek-dominated scene.</p>
<p>They say there's nothing worse than a convert for fanaticism.</p>
<p>Generally speaking, with things social in general, there is in theory a "tipping point", a percentage whereby a behavior is perceived as a norm, even when, in fact, it isn't, and begins to permeate the lives of even those who don't participate in the behavior. For alcohol/drug overuse on campus, it is usually thought to be around 35% or so. If there are more, say, binge drinkers than that, the environment will feel distinctly "alcoholic" - even though 30% of students on campus don't drink at all. It might be same for athletics. Or for Greeks. It's hard to know what the tipping point is, however, so you have to call it as you see it.</p>
<p>I haven't heard the downside to transferring yet, and I've heard much up. Of course, she could decide to stick it out, and end up enjoying it - there's just no way to know, short of a double-blind test. ;)</p>
<p>It's really tough to know whether to support a transfer bid-are they giving up in the face of adversity which would make them stronger if thedy faced it or do they know themselves and see that it's not a fit!?</p>
<p>My DD talked about transferring tfrom one prestigous state school to another her first Christmas- why? Her friends from high school were having fun, many kids had gone back east to other schools near enough to link up and it sounded so fun.</p>
<p>Our way of dealing with it was to leave it all to her- if she was motivated enough to get the info and do that app, then we would be willing to suport it, but we figured it was up to her to make it happen if the change was that important. She is still in her same school and having waaay more fun this year.</p>
<p>I'm a VP for Student Affairs at a smallish (4000 students or so) university, and I field a number of calls like this from concerned parents. On many (most?) campuses, the Greek system and the university Dept. of Student Activities play roles similar to that of the private high schools in your town and your Public High School system. That is to say, the entire population is taxed to provide resources for the public system (i.e., Student Activities), while a certain proportion of the population decide they'd prefer to operate in a private (Greek) environment despite having fewer resources. As a result, it's generally quite easy to break in with the Campus Activities Board, a social-planning group that may have tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars at its disposal. The great thing about campus life is that when one door closes it only tends to make you notice the dozens of others that are standing open. I'd suggest that your daughter go to the Activities office and ask about becoming involved in a volunteer role with the activities board - at smaller schools, the slightest degree of interest or initiative is sufficient to get put on a committee with a ready-made set of student colleagues who are interested in the same things you are.</p>
<p>
[quote]
For alcohol/drug overuse on campus, it is usually thought to be around 35% or so.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The 35% may be a little high for a tipping point, perhaps because the official "binge drinking" rate probably captures some students who really aren't binge drinkers.</p>
<p>But, I bet it's fairly close on a number of issues, perhaps 30% might be a better rule of thumb...</p>
<p>For example, a school with more than 30% non-white students is going to "feel" very multicultural, far more than the raw numbers would suggest. Conversely, a school with less than 30% non-white students is going to "feel" very white. At less than 20% non-white, the campus is going to feel "lily-white", even though there are still a significant number of minority students.</p>
<p>As usual, CC to the rescue! The general concensus seems to be supporting the transfer - which as I think about it more seems like a good thing. Although, I still plan to let my daughter make the decision. She has spring break next week and I'm going to have her go down to IU and talk to various people: Honors College to see if she can still get in as a transfer, admissions about what courses will transfer (especially ones that cover intro courses or requirements e.g. math, science, language), housing about options for transfers and just have her view the campus as a place to go to school - maybe even sit in on a class or two.</p>
<p>She isn't shy so much as somewhat insecure when it comes to not being included in groups. But that's actually pretty hard to tell on the "outside" as she comes across as pretty comfortable. I think it's more on the inside that she's churning a little.</p>
<p>As usual, Carolyn is right on with her comments. DePauw (her school) is ~75 % Greek which means at a school of 2300, there's only 420 people who aren't in a frat or sorority. I've heard numbers for IU of ~30 % Greek but that's still 24,500 people who are independent!</p>
<p>The other good thing, as some have pointed out, is that she has a year under her belt of a solid academic foundation. She's worked hard and learned some good study skills and gone through some bad experiences that I think, in the long run, will help her. She's a bit naive and this has all helped to give her a taste of "real life" and how to handle disappointments. I think the bottom line is that DePauw may not be the right match for her at this time but it has provided an excellent jumping off place for her. Transferring to IU would not be that hard: she knows the campus, she has very close friends there, and she's going in with her eyes wide open about what she'll need to do (make new friends, find new interests, take extra classes, go potluck into a dorm). As an aside, she's also looking forward to a lot more food choices - one other advantage of big over small!</p>
<p>Her application is already in but it is past the "priority" filing date. We'll have to wait and see if she gets in - won't be a matter of grades but of timing.</p>
<p>Fredo--Love and sympathies to you and your daughter. I've seen my daughter go through similar periods of feeling socially isolated, and it breaks my heart every time. I've also seen a pattern something like you describe: Sometimes she thinks she's found a group of friends and that everything's wonderful--and then she finds out that they've gone on to make plans without her. I don't know if she's been picking the wrong friends or missing social cues or simply putting too many eggs in one basket, but it's terribly hard to watch.</p>
<p>I wish more than anything that I had been able to help her grow up more flexible and resilient--but the truth is that her social skills are much better than mine were at her age. I was pathologically shy and easily hurt, but have gotten better over time. It's a million years ago, but one of the things that really helped me in college was transferring to another school. Both socially and academically, the first school wasn't a good fit for me--I didn't even like living in that part of the country--and while I had no way of knowing that I'd love the other school either, transferring turned out to be the best thing I ever did. (For the record, my parents were horrified: They thought I was running away from my problems and would never stick anything out. Looking back, I must have been pretty motivated to persevere with the applications in the face of their disapproval; and I agree with the posters above that any decision of this kind really should come from your daughter.) </p>
<p>It sounds as if you're handling a tough situation beautifully. I wish both you and your daughter the very best.</p>
<p>Is it "giving up in the face of diversity" or making an "excellent, informed, rational decision based on substantial new information and experience"? No one seems willing to defend DePauw - the only reason given for the student not to pursue a transfer is that "she is wrongheaded".</p>
<p>How about just calling it a wrong fit, and rationally pursuing a better one?</p>
<p>helicoptermom: I could have written that same first paragraph, verbatim, about my D. It is so reassuring to know that other people have similar issues with their daughter. And everyone who has written about transferring anecdotally seems to have a positive ending.</p>
<p>Mini: I think you have hit it on the head. I don't think she's giving up at all. As a matter of fact, I give her a lot of credit for closely taking a look at a situation, clearly recognizing the source of unhappiness and taking steps to rectify it. She initiated the whole transfer idea and she did the app immediately and has done some preliminary research into what required courses she needs to take once she gets there. All on her. I think she definitely is rationally pursuing a better fit. At the beginning, this was a great fit for her but situations change and she has recognized that and knows the fit is not so good anymore. Demonstrates a lot to me. </p>
<p>You guys are making realize just how proud I am of her for pursuing this. I've gone from feeling sad to feeling proud - a lot as a result of the thoughtful words from CCers. Thank you!</p>
<p>I think your daughter is really really smart, mature and together. Lots and lots of people transfer ( obviously) and I tend to think her reasons are legit. I feel social pressure when I just think of that environment. That level can be soooo distracting to academics as well as social well being. I do not think she is copping out by transfering.. only being proactive in determining what will work out best, given higher level of knowledge and experience after having been at this small school. Too big isn't good either-- depending on the university's individual schools and academic programs but I would think it would be more comfortable socially for someone like her. Or at least, I woud get her out of a heavily sorority scene. If it is not your thing.. being around it seems oppressive to me.</p>