Same bad habits, college version

Parents Forum
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<p>DD is extremely bright but has always lacked common sense. Her natural intelligence and her ability to charm her teachers got her through most of school with good grades but she was never a great student. She forgot or lost assignments, was disorganized, had a hard time prioritizing and procrastinated constantly. </p>

<p>As she got older, managing school became harder and she would often lie to us about poor grades and then frantically try to increase her grades (extra credit, re-tests, etc.) just before report cards were sent home. She usually managed to pull things together at the the last minute. We never pressured her about grades but we did tell her if she was struggling that it was not acceptable to lie or to waste hours on the computer, doing ECs, socializing, etc. and she often had privileges revoked.</p>

<p>Despite our misgivings she signed up for a very heavy course load her junior year in HS and really struggled. Her guidance counselor suggested we had her evaluated and found out she has inattentive ADHD. The diagnosis explained a lot and with mild medication and counseling her study habits improved.</p>

<p>Knowing her habits and issues, we did everything we could before college started to set her on the right track. Registered her with the disability department, set up appointments with school counselors and a psychiatrist, talked to her about tutoring, how to manage her ADHD, etc. </p>

<p>She has repeatedly told us that she was doing well in school but she was vague and I suspected that she might be having issues. Last night she confessed that she failed her first calculus test (two weeks ago) and expected to fail a calculus test today. She has not talked to the professor, not gone to tutoring or talked to her counselor or psychiatrist about it. Intellectually she knows she should be doing these things and I think she is confused as we are as to why she is not. </p>

<p>This issue has been going on for years and we have tried many, many tactics to get her to take responsibility before things get too difficult. We've never directly intervened with teachers on her behalf and have let her suffer the consequences of her actions. If anyone has any out of the box suggestions, I would love to hear them. Thanks.</p>

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<p>Take some time off and do a menial job - go back to college when she’s ready to take it seriously. In the meantime withdraw from calculus and concentrate on her other courses.</p>

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<p>This was exactly my son (minus the ADHD) up to week 5 of his freshman year in high school when we pulled him from his public school and put him in a private school which had things like immediate after school detention if homework wasn’t done, small classes and a faculty which communicated with parents on a consistent basis. It took less than one week for him to turn around. </p>

<p>Since this option is not available to you, imo, the best thing for her would be to take a few years off to mature and then go back to school when she is serious about her education.</p>

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<p>No out of the box suggestions, sorry. But sympathy here. Some kids just can’t cope with the regular demands of college, especially if their executive function ability is compromised. A nephew was accepted and began at Macalaseter, ended up taking a year off, then went back but with a reduced schedule. He just cannot get a “normal” college load’s worth of work done on time with any regularity. He has also been diagnosed with ADHD/inattentive so they parents have been struggling to support his academic success for years (and he has had some lying about his grades, etc too). So he will be on a 6 year plan to finish college. It will cost more $, but they think staying at that school and learning to succeed (doing a lesser class load) is the best choice for him. Good luck.</p>

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<p>It sounds like she is not utlililzing the resources available to help her with her ADHD. As someone else suggested I suggest she drop calc and you let her know that she needs start utilizing the resources available or she will have to transfer to cc where you can help keep her on track. </p>

<p>My S was diagnosed with executive function disorder about a month before he graduated HS. He had weekly visits with a therapist over the summer and is now supposedly utilizing the techniques he learned during those sessions. He is now in his freshman year away at college. Because of his high IQ, relatively decent grades in HS and how well he tested on scholarship competitions, the college is only reluctantly giving him services (ie - occasional visits with a therapist). His previous therapist feels that is adequate and I hope he is right. S tells us he is doing well but I will only feel comfortable once I see that first report card. </p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

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<p>Executive function/ADHD problems do not cause lying. She doesn’t have the maturity yet to acknowledge the consequences of her actions, and is resorting to covering them up. I agree with others that she isn’t ready for college yet and needs to find a different path after this semester.</p>

<p>I am sorry you’re going through this, but a lot of kids have grown past this kind of behavior and come out successful on the other side. Hang in there!</p>

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<p>You could be talking about S1. Honestly, this is completely familiar, right down to the “won’t feel safe until report card” comes. I wish I had a simple solution, but we know, don’t we, that we’ve tried everything. And yet, people judge (“You need to step back” “You need to let him fail” “He’s just immature/irresponsible/lazy”) and I second guess myself. I bet you do , too. </p>

<p>It was useful to us to go to an appointment with his advisor, and also to help him choose classes. It was useful to allow him to lighten his classload so he didn’t spiral from overwhelmed to discouraged to quitting to failing. It was useful to insist on seeing his online class sites, so to verify how he’s doing and help him course-correct. It is useful to measure success by more than a gpa. We’ve not seen much of a correlation of rewards/punishments with modifying problem behaviors. He knows what’s at stake. I bet your daughter does too. They have every intention of doing better, but then somehow it goes sideways. </p>

<p>All that being said, we are into year 5 with no clear assurance that he will graduate, at least not the kind of assurance that parents usually have and plan parties around! Taking it a term at a time is useful, too. While ADHD might not cause lying, lying has been a large part of what we’ve seen. While some kids grow out of this, some --many — do not, since that’s like outgrowing an allergy. It’s just how they are. It’s not something entirely under their control. If I had a nickel for every assurance that things will be fine, followed by crash-and-burn…And why do people say “Oh, but ____ is such a good kid” as if having bad grades means you’re a bad person?</p>

<p>My son refuses to be tested. His therapist said he’s seen lots of ADHD adults and that S1 isn’t even worth testing, but I disagree. Husband says we shouldn’t force the issue. I say, if there’s a reason for all we’ve been through, wouldn’t it be better to know? Not to hijack the thread at all. So we hope to graduate,make plans in our heads for what if…Hang in there.</p>

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<p>[Teens</a> with Executive Function Disorder Smart Kids With LD](<a href=“http://www.smartkidswithld.org/ages-stages/high-school/adolescents-and-executive-function-skills]Teens”>http://www.smartkidswithld.org/ages-stages/high-school/adolescents-and-executive-function-skills)</p>

<p>there are several articles with concrete suggestions, although you’ve probably heard all these by now :)</p>

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<p>I agree entirely with greenbutton. My S, a hs jr., has Tourette’s and ADD. He is also very bright and rarely needs to work particularly hard in school. We had him tested over the summer and found out about the ADD. The AP and advanced classes just began taxing his organizational skills. He didn’t lie to us about the grades and assignments, but when we first started working on studying for the SAT, he began to cheat (looking up answers in the book while taking the test). It occured to me that we have this problem with S when I demand a particular outcome rather than a certain level of effort. </p>

<p>Some things that have worked for us: focusing on effort over grades (knowing that high effort almost always results in acceptable grades anyway, and when it doesn’t - well, at least they tried), letting him know that his brain works differently than most other people rendering him with some extraordinary advantages and strengths and some areas in which he will likely always require accomodations, figuring out how best to make those accomodations (like a 2-month wall calendar updated each week - notes to self with erasable markers on the bathroom mirror), and appts with teachers to focus on increased understanding of material and what teacher is looking for - not to argue grades or make an ADD case out it. </p>

<p>I have had to work hard with S to maintain self-esteem and decrease anxiety in some scholastic areas. Could it possibly be the case that your D is embarrased or anxious about meeting with profs and others? You may not get the answers from her without having a face-to-face. But, IMHO, allowing her to drop the calculus class may relieve some pressure she might be feeling and allow her to focus more on her other classes. It may be that this transition has just been too challenging and taxing and that she needs more to be eased in to college.</p>

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<p>Greenbutton,</p>

<p>My son tested positive for inattentive ADHD after his freshman year of college. He was a good student in HS, taking AP classes, winning awards. He had a 3.8 GPA at the end of freshman year of college (he’s in the honors college at our flagship). He complained all during HS he was having trouble focusing but because he maintained high grades, we felt like he couldn’t possibly have ADHD. After hearing complaints all last year in college, I overrode my husband’s objections and had him tested.</p>

<p>Here’s the thing about ADHD…if a student has a very high IQ (my son tested at 145) they often go undiagnosed until they hit a wall (the counselor’s words). The counselor said that she sees patients all the time who are at the top of their game until they hit medical school or law school and suddenly it all falls apart. Each student is different, some have huge executive functioning issues that show up in elementary school, for others it’s much later in life. I almost cried when the counselor told us son’s performance on the testing indicated his intellect was in the top 1% of all people and even with his good grades, he was under performing for someone with his IQ. I felt so guilty and wished we had addressed this earlier. </p>

<p>Having said that we also discovered this summer that he suffers from a sleeping disorder that might be affecting his cognitive performance. I would leave no stone unturned.</p>

<p>To the OP - I have several siblings with ADHD and performance issues. The important thing (from my experience) is that they are at a school that isn’t a reach. For some kids, dropping back to a CC makes more sense or even taking just a few classes a semester. If a student starts to feel overwhelmed, then they tend to start to procrastinate and that leads to a downward spiral. Getting a college degree on a part-time basis still means you have a college degree at the end of it all. There’s no law that every kid must go to live on a campus and complete their degree in 4 years. I meet adults all the time that didn’t go the ‘traditional route’ (including me) and go on to do very well in their careers. Good luck.</p>

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<p>In terms of specific things that work, I can suggest the following based on our experience and several friends with similar children:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Online classes. For some kids, organizing assignments and due dates is the major hurdle. With online classes there are no lost assignments, lessons can be reviewed as often as necessary to understand the topic and there are no classroom distractions. Not all colleges offer these now, but an increasing number do.</p></li>
<li><p>For our friend’s son, taking one or two classes at the local community college made all the difference. The problem for many of these kids is the feeling of being overwhelmed by 4 or 5 different subjects. Similarly, our child excelled at an intensive single subject summer course. </p></li>
<li><p>Tutoring. Set up and insist on attendance with a one-on-one tutor. It will cost extra than tutoring provided by the TA’s, but scheduling it as an appointment reduces the tendency to blow it off. Also, the tutor becomes the de facto parent, someone who personally cares about the child’s progress.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>These are great kids living in a world that doesn’t accept that everyone is not born with executive functions.</p>

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<p>This title of this article mentions Asperger’s but it applies to others in college with ADD:</p>

<p><a href=“http://aspergercenter.com/articles/college-experience-asperger-syndrome.pdf[/url]”>http://aspergercenter.com/articles/college-experience-asperger-syndrome.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>

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<p>The D of a friend has similar issues as OP’s child, up to and including lying about school progress. Friend wishes she had hired a “coach” to keep tabs on the kid–someone who can help with organizational issues, priorities, etc. Mom doing it caused major friction.</p>

<p>Just know that you are not alone.</p>

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<p>We also tried the tutor. First time, I was naive and did not keep tabs on things, of course he wasn’t going, and wasn’t going to tell me. Second time, we arranged with a tutoring firm (we live in a college town) and I pay by check, so I have independant corroboration. They will also , on request, send me his attendance, but I haven’t gone there. I think it’s hard for these students to be disappointed personally, and feel like they are disappointing everyone, AND know that even if they do tell the truth, we really can’t believe them. </p>

<p>Someone mentioned a calendar. How did you get them to USE it? Or did you do that yourself? I can’t ever decide when to step in, and when to step away :(</p>

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<p>To greenbutton: Thanks for that link! I’ve read the article and bookmarked it to refer to later. We’ve been on this path (or should I say “roller coaster”?) for 7 years with DS, who is now a college freshman. This thread has confirmed what we’ve been thinking—that we need to keep on top of how his classes are going and not just accept, “Things are fine!” DH had an hour long conversation with DS last night about making use of the math tutors and quiet study areas.</p>

<p>To the OP: My heart goes out to you! Like other posters, I can really relate to your situation. (Anyone interested in a CC support group for parents of ADHD college students?) We have tried everything, read all the books, counseling, behavior modification, rewards, taking away privileges, organizational tricks, medication, etc. etc. I’ve come to the point of acceptance now----that his frontal lobe is still developing and won’t be done for another 6 or 7 years!..Hiring a coach may be our next step.</p>

<p>Most frustrating of all is that many “educators” are completely clueless about the spectrum of attention disorders. I have so many stories…Why, oh why, do they expect all kids to fit in the same mold? Remember: They are uniquely and wonderfully made!</p>

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<p>If you’re venting, I’ll offer my compassion.</p>

<p>If you want practical advice, I’ll offer some. Her college wasn’t identified, nor its size, type, academic “rigor” etc. As a parent of a student w/“executive function” issues (issues w/timely homework production and/or test studying, procastination, disorganized desk/papers, some inattentiveness w/o hyperness etc but overall strong student). Our student gets all work done on time, but it may involve late nights and preformance anxiety, so I’ve been researching colleges with those specific issues in mind. I’ve found several Midwest LACs, for instance, that offer TRIO Programs for LD students, as well as other achievement-focussed programs that strive to keep students on track all along the semester period so that there isn’t panic, disaster, and withdrawal at end of term and that there’s a graduation achieved. Does your daughter’s college offer LD programs that have weekly check-ins w/counselor, one-on-one extra advising, signed student study commitments, tutors/mentors, etc? May be time to officially test her (educational psychological test report) to obtain access to such services. Sounds like what worked in HS (extra-credit bumps?) were fortunate (but probably unfair to other students not aware of such opportunities…) but not as likely available in college setting.</p>

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<p>I think it’s worth asking why a kid needs a college degree at age X. Is there a job or graduate school requiring a college degree that he’ll be able to handle better than college? If so, it makes sense to keep plugging away. If not, isn’t it better to find something he can do well at right now, and leave open the possibility of returning to college at age X-plus-whatever? Expecting everyone to be ready for college at 20 (or any age) seems to me another example of putting all the kids in the same mold.</p>

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<p>One comment about Attention Problems and a few suggestions-</p>

<p>Factors to consider: Depression and anxiety can include the symptom of problems with attending. And, either can exacerbate difficulties caused by ADD. On top of which, potentially stressful situations, like a new environment, are another complicating layer. So, the picture can be complex.</p>

<p>Suggestions:</p>

<p>It’s great if student and parent(s) can have regular contact, via phone, IM, etc. so that no one, both student and family, feels isolated. </p>

<p>A simple internet “task” calendar, like Gmail’s calendar, can help. The student can put in what s/he plans to do when in one color, then change the color as the task is done. Access to the calendar by parents can help, not with accountability, but with enhancing the student feeling positive. Seeing what one’s accomplished and sharing that accomplishment can be very rewarding and helps one feel competent and confident. Plus, through practice one reinforces executive functioning skills.</p>

<p>One last suggestion is that at times someone with ADD focuses better on subjects s/he is really interested in. Some upper division students might do well with an independent study, one course self-designed as part of the regular semester’s load. For example, if 4 courses is standard, one self-designed course and 3 regular courses. Another suggestion is to take at least one seminar-style course, which naturally entails interacting in the classroom, and in turn could help connecting and meeting the professor and other students outside of class in order to stay on course.</p>

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<p>Would a LAC like Colorado College or Cornell COLLEGE in Indiana where they take one class at a time be good for students with ADD?</p>

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<p>To Deega, I would ask your daughter’s permission to call a dean, adviser, psychiatrist, or whoever is the most appropriate person, to talk about the situation with calculus. Did your daughter sign releases so you could talk with folks at the school? If not, get those releases signed for each person/dept. you might need to access.</p>

<p>My daughter had a similar situation recently and sort of had her head in the sand. I visited and learned she had missed many classes in a certain subject. The class was early in the morning and due to meds for another disorder, it was hard to get up. She herself seemed mystified by her own inability to make it, and was very down on herself as a result, therefore saying she did not “deserve” help or accommodations of any kind.</p>

<p>With her permission, I called both the dean and psychiatrist, and the college mobilized quickly to help her. I think she met with the dean, psychiatrist, first year advisor, teacher, and academic advisor in that one week. They helped her withdraw from the class. The timing of meds was also evaluated.</p>

<p>She is in a performing arts major that does not require a lot of reading and writing. Her plan now is to take one class that does involve reading and writing, one class like math or drawing, and two classes in her performing art, each semester. She craves “being educated” but accepts that she cannot take, say, a literature class and a philosophy class at the same time.</p>

<p>There are a lot of materials out there on how to deal with ADHD from a “strengths” perspective. Due to her ADHD/inattentive and another disorder that affects focus, my daughter has trouble finishing a book, yet she is one of the most insightful people I know, and is a wonderful creative writer. We helped her deepen her love of her performing art throughout high school. She is an out of the box thinker who always surprises and delights.</p>

<p>I tell her that this first year at college will help clarify what she wants to do. I am trying to set it up in her mind, as subtley as possible, that there are many ways to get an education, and to work, and to live life- just in case. Before she accepted going to this college, we also looked at some of the other options, so she knew they were there.</p>

<p>I am hoping that if this college does not work out (and it is the best possible option for a kid with her interests and issues, with most classes being small discussion classes, and lots of freedom to study what she wants, including her performing art), then she will feel she is choosing another option and not failing.</p>

<p>I do not judge her at all. It is clear to me, even with the recent episode of avoiding class, that she is trying really hard and is in the midst of a sometimes desperate struggle against her obstacles. She deserves every bit of support and admiration that comes her way.</p>