Desperately need advice

Parents Forum
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<p>My DD is a freshman at an Ivy league school. She ended her first semester with three B+ and one B-(very challenging upper level science course). This semester she decided to take 5 courses, three of which are heavy duty. The three hard courses that she signed up for, she did with great optimism, and she loves the subject matter, and was considering majoring in the subject. Midterms came around, and she decided that she was going to drop one course, and try to focus on the remaining four. She was pretty upbeat, until midterm grades came. She had a B, A- and shockingly, in her two harder courses, D and C. She is devastated. I talked with her and realized that although she has been studying, and putting in the hours, she often feels unfocused, and says that she sometimes feels spaced out and stare at problems for long periods of time without getting anywhere. She doesn't seem to have found any study groups. She is rather shy, and is taking a non-standard course load where there are barely any other freshmen, and she feels very awkward approaching other students. She seems to have isolated herself academically. </p>

<p>On the social side, she says that she has a lot of friends she enjoys talking to but is not terribly close with. She is comfortable with this, and says that it takes time to develop deeper friendships. Before these academic setbacks, she seemed to be fairly serene. After this though, she has withdrawn, and feels embarrassed to see her old friends because she feels that she 'ought' to be doing well, and not struggling, and so is something of a failure.
She said 'Academics is my thing, and if I am not good at that, what is my life for?'</p>

<p>My DH and I are worried sick, not so much about the grades, but about the effect on her. We worry that her confidence has been shattered, and that she might spiral into depression. </p>

<p>She talks with us frequently, since we are a close knit family. We live not too far from her school so we get to see her every so often. We do not see any evidence of substance use, unless she is hiding it very cleverly from us. </p>

<p>What can she do to pull herself out of this? What should we, as parents, do to help? Does it sound like she has a low grade depression? We desperately want to help and support her.</p>

<p>I would appreciate any suggestions you might have for us. Thanks!</p>

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<p>Yes, she CAN pull herself out of this, but she needs to act fast. </p>

<p>First, she needs to focus on that ‘D’. URGE her to find a tutor or study group, preferably both. Explain that it is NOT a sign of failure to look for a tutor – it’s being smart and proactive. It’s taking advantage of the resources available at her top ranked school. Those resources are one of the reasons she’s there, right? </p>

<p>Once she has a ‘C’ in that class, she will be doing OK academically. Not great, but not terrible - that would be about a 2.75 GPA - if I’m figuring it right. It sounds like the classes she’s doing the worst in are math/science type of courses. It could be that she’s discovering she’s not the math/science type of student. Or, she could be the victim of the classic weed-out scenario and, once she passes, she may discover the higher-level courses to follow will be paradoxically easier to succeed in. Either way, it may be a time to re-evaluate how many classes she should be taking, and of those, how many should be very hard. 5 classes, 2 of them particularly challenging, in your second semester as an Ivy freshman sounds pretty ambitious to me.</p>

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<p>Katliamom,
She is a freshman, and you may well be correct, some of those classes may be weed out classes. She is considering P/D/F-ing the course in which she got a D.</p>

<p>Does she sound mildly depressed to you?</p>

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<p>Has she been to meet with the professors of the courses she’s struggling in? Sometimes freshmen who have been very successful students in high school have to get comfortable with the process of asking for help. No professor wants a student to fail a course. If she hasn’t already I’d encourage her to meet with both professors and have a frank conversation about whether she can/should drop the course and if not, what her weaknesses are and how she can remediate them. I also second the idea of a study group!</p>

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<p>First, you cannot help but worry. That is what we parents do.</p>

<p>Realize that you are not the first set of parents in this place. My S feared failing one course each of two terms early in his Engineering career, at a very challenging top U. I think he was in the D- range when he shared his worry with us that first time.</p>

<p>What we did that I think was important: let him know that we were <em>not</em> disappointed in him. I think he feared letting us down, a natural reaction by a kid who has always done well in school. I know you support your D as well, but be sure to put it right into words and let her know that you are behind her and will be pleased if she pulls through a “pass” in these classes. Knowing that we did not feel he was a failure if he brought home less than a B (let alone A) was a big burden lifted from our S. He was already down on himself. Knowing that we were not down on him took away a lot of self-imposed pressure. So that is one thing you can do.</p>

<p>What she can do if she hasn’t: find study group/partner (even if she is shy; my S was too, but he took this step); go to prof office hours, TA hours if there is a TA; go to Academic Support office/program; find alternate texts if either of these are textbook-type courses. (My S ordered one - rush- online and it worked better for him than the assigned text).</p>

<p>It is extra hard for these kids who don’t easily approach others, but that is a life skill they will need. So encourage her to take some of these steps.</p>

<p>I, like you, feared that my S might succumb to depression - I had heard of many cases of it in college freshmen and that they might be hiding it. I did actually make the 8-hour drive to visit my S and see for myself that he was ok. (I told him that I was headed down his way to see a friend and to see him, and that all he owed me was out to dinner one time). That was enough for me to see that he was fine, without “spooking” him. So you neither want to put your head in the sand, nor see depression where it might not really exist. You might not need to visit her, but do if you feel the need.</p>

<p>So again, let her know that you are behind her and pulling for her to pass these two courses, but that you are not devastated and don’t want her to be… if she ends up with C-type grades in a couple of courses.</p>

<p>Encourage her to face the importance of finding ways, even if outside of her comfort zone, to get the study support. My S did these things and he, too, was a shy kid. She can do it.</p>

<p>If she needs emotional support (from outside the family), help her make her way to the counseling center. If she needs tips in how to approach other students re study groups, or how to approach the prof in ofc hours, maybe you can role play with her.</p>

<p>My S ended up with a C+ in each of the two above-mentioned classes. Lowest grades he <em>ever</em> saw. But we were greatly proud of him, because this was a “face your demons and work through them” situation. </p>

<p>We also worried that this might be an omen for his entire academic career. It wasn’t. He ended up with a fine GPA and great job offers when he graduated. But these were tough courses, difficult profs and instances where he came face-to-face with the need for different types of study approaches than what had worked in hs. That doesn’t happen to every kid, nor in every course… but that is probably what she is experiencing.</p>

<p>Academics probably is her thing. But she’s come up against something new in that world and needs to figure out how to navigate it. Maybe for the first time, she can’t do it without help. There is nothing weak about seeking help. </p>

<p>Let us know how things go.</p>

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<p>Yes, she has been to visit the Professor of the class she got a D in. He thinks that she should drop it since she is a freshman, and try again in sophomore year. But if she does that, she will drop below the 4 course load for this semester.</p>

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<p>BTW, I had always been a top student and my son knew that. The occasion had never come up for me to share with him how rough my first to weeks were in a tough MBA program. For the first time I came up against work I just “didn’t get.” I cried more than a few times early in that program. So this was a moment I could share that with my S. Maybe that helpd and if you have similar life experiences, you might share them with her.</p>

<p>Even if these kids have recently told us how clueless we are on some subject :), we are probably still gods to them in many ways. Doesn’t hurt to let them know we’ve been where they are - in tough spots - and come through.</p>

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<p>Good advice, jmmom, and we have done so. My husband and I both let her know of our struggles in Grad School.</p>

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<p>Worriedmom1,</p>

<p>I am new on CC, and this is my first post. I can feel your desperation/worry since I have S who went to undergrad -an Ivy, and now doing MD/MBA at the same Ivy (graduating next June). I know it’s difficult, but my suggestion will be to support her by focusing less on the grades as you’ve been doing. </p>

<p>Tell her to seek tutoring on constant basis till the end of this current term. It’s going to be tough to convince her (remember she is smart, and not use to seeking help) since she might feel embarrassed to go to peer tutoring or ask a counselor for where to get the help. My experience is group study helps, but what she needs is one-on-one help right now.</p>

<p>Remind her that it’s midterm grades, and that she can still pull those grades up. Be calm around her; tell her it’s not the grades that define her, but the courage to seek help, and pull those grades up is what is important. No shame in doing that at all. It’s part of the learning process.</p>

<p>Going forward, suggest to her that upper level science courses should be taken after she gets used to the pressures of being in such a challenging environment. Unless she had a lot of APs credits coming in as a freshman, I will advise her not to take two to three upper level science courses in a term. Taking the right combination of rigorous courses is the key. </p>

<p>Keep communication going with her; follow your instinct and call her sometimes if you don’t hear from her. Best of luck to you and your family!</p>

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<p>Sounds like the OP’s D chose an ambitious course load. </p>

<p>If she drops the class, can she go to summer school to even out her full-time/satisfactory progress for the 2010-11 academic year? </p>

<p>Sometimes it’s best to tuck in an easier class to balance out the harder ones. Help her choose a more sane schedule for Fall.</p>

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<p>OP, hugs. I know all about that heartsick worry for your freshman.</p>

<p>See if you can persuade her to drop by the counselling center. She does sound like she’s been thrown a little off-balance by the experience. One of the most common things that counselling centers deal with is freshman adjustment issues, and they can help her get a better grip on the social/emotional side of college, which might in turn give her some confidence for her coursework.</p>

<p>jmmom has some great advice. Like she said, send a message of unwavering support, unconditional love, and the firm belief that she can get through this.</p>

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<p>Worried: A girl from our town who graduated last year #2 in her class is having the same problem as your child. She now attends Princeton and have heard she is not doing so well there grade-wise. It has to be hard for kids who are so used to being at the top of the curve to fall below average. They aren’t used to their hard work not paying off. I think the other posts on here are solid advice and hope she takes advantage. That being said, I am so glad you posted. I’m afraid my D is going to have the same problems when she goes off to college - she won’t be choosing an Ivy, but I’m sure she will ultimately pick a challenging track. Good luck to you and your daughter. Sometimes it helps for them to know they are not alone and others are in the same boat. :)</p>

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<p>^^MANY others are in the same boat…espcially freshman year. OP…Im sure if your D asked around to some of her friends, she would find, if they were being honest, that they are all struggling a little. The first year in college is very challenging for many students. I suspect that many of them, especially the high achieving ones, are afraid to talk about it with thier friends because they think they are alone.
I know my D who was a straight A student in HS had a really hard time adjusting first semester. She also had a D at midterm in one of her classes because it was a mid term/final only class and she did not do well on the mid-term. Miraculously she was able to pull that grade up to a B- at the final…it can be done. I would say as others have said…try to be positive about the grades…there are many people that had less than stellar grades thier first year and they turned it around. I suspect that is more the norm than than the exception. Hang in there!!</p>

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<p>Your d committed a typical rookie mistake.
She had a weak first semester at her ivy so she decided to prove to herself that she belongs there with a brutal 2nd semester course load.
It simply is too much for her and she is letting her emotional state affect her work.
She should take the prof’s advice and drop the class.
She then can refocus and find success in the rest of her schedule.
IMHO IMHO IMHO</p>

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<p>Does she have any history of depression? This seems to be your primary concern and I’m wondering if she has struggled with this before.
I agree with those that recommend the school’s counseling services. The poor thing. It is so much to deal with freshman year. They come out of high school feeling like they know themselves and where they fit in the world and then they have to redefine themselves on an unfamiliar college campus surrounded by strangers. </p>

<p>I’m sure she knows that she has your support and acceptance and that is so important! Good for you for downplaying the academic issues and making her happiness your top priority. That’s a great start.</p>

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<p>An ironic downside of high achievement for talented kids is that they tend to miss out on one of life’s greatest learning experiences - rebounding from failure. If you’ve always excelled and never failed, failure tends to take on a looming, catastrophic appearance, when in fact it’s an occasional norm for most people’s lives. I agree that the greatest concern here is the daughter’s own sense of worth and well-being, but I’m calculating her current GPA at 2.8, with the D included. That’s a 2.8 in one of the most advanced academic cultures in the world. There’s absolutely no reason to think that she won’t end up above 3.0 overall in the near future. If she knows where to turn for help and support and feels OK about seeking it out, then her future is bright - maybe even brighter for having struggled and found out that she can bounce back than to have never struggled in the first place.</p>

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<p>Thank you all for your helpful replies. Batllo, I agree. Fortunately she seems to have learned her lesson and is not talking any more about crazy schedules for future semesters. She has made an appointment to see the academic help group at her school very soon. Hopefully she will emerge with strategies that will help.</p>

<p>She has no prior history of depression, but is currently very emotional, and has developed a total lack of confidence in her test taking skills. She says that she studied sincerely for her exams, and is perplexed by her poor performance. I am just wondering if the stress might not be pushing her over the edge. I am strongly urging her to walk in to see the counselors at health services.</p>

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<p>If I were a betting woman I would bet on her. It sounds like a classic case that happens to kids that do great at everything in high school (which are the kids that do end up at highly competitive schools). The freshman year is an adjustment for all kids and they do start to find their strengths and their weaknesses. All people have academic strengths and weaknesses I think. One of greatest things that occurs for kids is that they, if they haven’t had to before,do figure out how to dig themselves out of an academic hole. This particular class with a D at mid-term is a hurdle, but if she gets some help and counsel I bet she will pull it out and if she doesn’t as others have pointed out, it isn’t insurmountable and won’t impact her GPA in a horribly negative manner. </p>

<p>If she does end up dropping the class she should make sure what that means now and in the long term. I know my S1 dropped one class where he had a D going but it was before mid-terms. He knew he couldn’t catch up and didn’t have the time with the rest of the rest o the classes it would need to get over the hump. I respected his assessment. He retook it another semester with his majors classes (which are relatively “easy” for him since it is his strength) and gave it the “extra attention” the class needed right from Day 1 and ended up with a B I think. Dropping a class isn’t the end of the world as long as your D knows how that factors now and long term and if she can even drop it after the mid-term. </p>

<p>It’s good to suggest health services. You D probably knows if her emotional state is real or if you are “hearing” all the emotions because you are the parents. My mom reminds me constantly of the calls I made home to “come and get me” when I was under academic stress when I rant to her about the kids ranting to me…sometimes my kids get rid of stress by calling “home” and dumping stress. You talk to them the next morning and they barely remember the phone call. Best of luck to you for your D.</p>

<p>Finally we, as parents, do tend not to share our experiences. I remember one night in grad school just crying my eyes out because I didin’t know how I was going to get it done, the words on the pages looked like a language I didn’t know and I was at the bottom of an emotional pit. You just simply can’t do anything more or retain anything and it is a awful feeling. I’m going to remember to share that story when I get the next “I can’t do it” phone call…so do share and be supportive. Good advice jmmom.</p>

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<p>^^
That is always a good strategy with my D, the sharing of my own past experience in a similar situation. I think it counters that “I’m the only one who has, ever will have, or ever has had, this problem” thinking, which is so common in the late teens.</p>

<p>OP, you’re handling it just right. Support and sympathize, offer suggestions (even though some of them will be batted away), be quietly optimistic and calm (even if you have to use your best acting skills), and don’t let her suck you into the vortex with her. She needs an anchor in the storm, someone who’s there with the message, “You can do this. You’re going to be OK.”</p>

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<p>

This was very much my S. As he said, he did not mind working really really hard to get A’s (his prior experience). But he absolutely hated working harder than he ever had in the hopes that he might maybe, hopefully, get barely better than passing.</p>

<p>It is a learning experience. It probably won’t occur in her later semesters and she will get her confidence back. Most likely she won’t go from a state of sapped self-confidence to real depression, but you are watching closely and will likely pick anything like that up when it is not too late. She is headed to counseling, I think you said, so that is great.</p>

<p>I so agree with gadad - this situation puts your D in one of life’s greatest learning experiences. How to deal with failure or fear of failure. One of the things I said to my S as he struggled through that first very tough term was that I admired him for not folding under pressure. He now sees himself as someone who doesn’t fold under pressure. If he needed to get a C+ and endure a struggle and worry in order to achieve that… well worth it.</p>

<p>BTW, I was recalling that my S found a study partner (single) vs. study group. Just mention this because, for a shy kid, it might be easier to approach one other student instead of an existing group or trying to form a group.</p>