SAT, Racist Against Foreign Students?

Test Preparation
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<p>i didn't say that asians are smarter I said that the asians in america are smarter, I don't believe in the racial bias of the SAT I believe in the scocio-economic bias, I don't believe that the color of your skin has any impact on your intelligence. The only reason blacks would score lower on the test is because they have a higher percentage of their population in the lower economic groups. This is easily explained by our history, we only "officially" ended racial discrimination about forty years ago and discrimination in the workplace has never fully disappeared.</p>

<p>as for the bias, you can easily recognize it simply by looking at the statistics that college board itself publishes</p>

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<p>Correlation doesn't show causation. Haven't you ever taken a statistics class??</p>

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<p>honestly then what is your explanation for it?</p>

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<p>haha vladmir amen.</p>

<p>exactly bcgousc. correlation does not mean causation. im sry that the low-income people dont do as well? i highly doubt its because they are low-income. i think its more about the mindset =P</p>

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<p>mindset? you mean they have low self esteem?</p>

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<p>"The only reason blacks would score lower on the test is because they have a higher percentage of their population in the lower economic groups."</p>

<p>An article from the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, quoted in an online posting, </p>

<p><a href="http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?p=89662#p89662%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?p=89662#p89662&lt;/a> </p>

<p>suggests that the reasons for the regrettable score gap are much more complicated. Note what that article says about typical scores at various income levels in various ethnic groups. I think it is possible to close the score gap, and I applaud efforts to close ethnic income gaps, but there is more than income differences going on here.</p>

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<p>"as for the bias, you can easily recognize it simply by looking at the statistics that college board itself publishes"</p>

<p>I have scored badly on the SAT. My sister has scored badly. I thus conclude that the SAT discriminates students with my last name.</p>

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<p>the statistics include thousands of people not just two also i belive that the SAT is biased not descriminatory...big difference</p>

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<p>The SAT is without question a biased, flawed test, but I for one am glad it exists. I go to a small rural public school in the middle of nowhere. My gc doesn't know anyone anywhere to call to put in a good word for me. My parents didn't go to Ivy League colleges. We don't have money to make big, or for that matter any donations and we don't have "connections" we can turn to. </p>

<p>I'm really hoping to do well on the SATs, it's my best shot to show colleges that I'm just as smart as the kids who go to highly competitive high schools and who have educational advantages (superior guidance, greater course selection, more AP opportunities, etc.) that are not available to me.</p>

<p>As imperfect as the SAT is, it is my only hope for a more level playing field.</p>

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<p>"xbisou: When you start making generalizations about one group (asians) does higher because they are smarter as you said then the logical progression is to say that blacks score much lower because they are much less smart and I'm sure that you do not intend that. Watch the connections you make because it is easy to apply them in other unappealing ways."</p>

<p>I think that Asians (not all, but a lot of them) are not necessarily smarter, but they have the drive to do well instilled in them from an early age. Instead of sitting in front of the TV for 2 hours stuffing their faces with food, they utilize their time learning for 2 hours.</p>

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<p>Stop dicussing how asians are smarter. They're not smarter in any way at all. So it's racistic speeches. No one race is superb over another.</p>

<p>Look at another 2 billion of chinese/indians, who don't study in America. I doubt that they're so smart.</p>

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<p>Racistic isn't a word first off....</p>

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<p>the only thing i dont like is how they use ounces and gallons and such...thts pretty discriminatory against intels. also its not like when we go to college we will have to ever use gallons or some of the other weird measurments they launch at u...whats wrong with good old kilos and kgs</p>

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<p>
[quote]
There are many schools abroad too, especially international schools, that help to prepare for SATs, but in any case even then foreigners, and particularly not-native speakers are in disadvantage. The reason for that is time. Foreigners, not native speakers, even with an excellent knowledge of English, need more time to understand a question and more time to react to it.

[/quote]

I agree with this ... the thought of attending school while using my second or third language is a very daunting thought ... because of the time problem.</p>

<p>
[quote]
That does not make them less able candidates for Harvard and Co. American universities are not races; they give to students plenty of time to answer questions and write essays.

[/quote]

whoops ... now I disagree ... I went to 3 top 20 schools and, to me, there are 2 things that stick out about those experiences ... 1) the awesome quality of my classmates ... and 2) the speed with which we covered material (as much as twice as fast as my friends at top 50 or so schools); hence the saying that "attending MIT is like drinking out of a fire hose". The learning pace is certainly not for everyone and an amazing accomplishment for someone learning in a language other than their native tongue.</p>

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<p>Citygirlsmom ... having just gone through your posts in the posts numbered in the 50s I understand your objections to the SATs. Personally, I believe the SATs are from from perfect and I am glad they are working to improve them. But to me the SATs seem a little like our political system ... it may have many flaws but it is better than anything else out there. I heard your objections to the tests ... but what is your proposed solution to these problems? Should admission not use any standardized test scores? Should everyone use the ACT? The SATs are far from perfect and it is easy to highlight flaws ... but it us much tougher to suggest a better process ... I'd love to hear one!</p>

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<p>To 3Togo.
I am sorry, but you obviously mix two different things here: the speed of working in a college, preparing essays etc. and the speed of making a test, where 5 additional minutes could cost valuable points.
I am not complaining about my daughter’s results. Even on this board, 1370 is a respectable result, but there are not many people who would doubt that 1370 of a foreigner who had no previous knowledge and experience of SAT or any multiple choice test, who had no preparation at school and who may have lost 5-10 minutes of valuable time because English is her third language does not reflect a real value of that student. As for abilities of foreigners to study in English at Harvard and Co, rest assured, most of them can study at any speed. That is why there are many foreigners in top universities.
Also, I suspect that you do not know any languages on a high level. Otherwise, you would know that those who study in a foreign language very soon become (almost) bi- trilingual. Universities are not interested in how many pages per second you read or write, as long as you finish reading/writing at the same time with the rest of the class. It may take more effort for foreigner to achieve that, but that makes them also more hardworking and focused.
It is ridiculous to call SATs racist, but, in my opinion, SATs are biased to foreigners and to pupils whose parents cannot afford expensive schools and tutors. Saying that, obviously, colleges find SATs valuable and we must accept that. In addition, I would not be surprise if colleges know about problems with SATs in these cases. Who knows, my D. may end up in her dream school after all?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I am sorry, but you obviously mix two different things here: the speed of working in a college, preparing essays etc. and the speed of making a test, where 5 additional minutes could cost valuable points

[/quote]
You may not agree but I did not mix them at all ... the SAT requires one to work very fast ... and when I got to top schools I was required to work very fast. To me it is one component of the SAT that absolutely works ... the ability to think and work fast. When I read students in CC say they struggled to finish the SAT (because of time) and they want to go to a top 10 school my immediate reaction (given the limited info we see) is that may not be a good fit for that student ... the pace may be too fast at the top schools. But that is just me.</p>

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<p>What a patronizing remark! You just managed to offend quiet a number of hardworking and intelligent students, most of them Americans and most of them undoubtedly very intelligent. For somebody who studied in three top universities your logic is breathtaking! So, in your opinion those with SAT 1300+ or even 1200+ are not good enough for the top 10 universities because they may be too slow?
The reason why top 10 universities can demand highest SATs has nothing to do with a speed of thinking or working through material and everything to do with “offer and demand” rule. There are simply too many students for limited amount of places, nothing else. Top 10 to 20 universities often are just as good as many of the Ivies, especially Ivies like Brown or your own alma mater, Cornell, but their SAT demands are lower because there applicant pool with highest SATs is often smaller. That does not mean that students in these Top 10+ Universities have a free ride, work slower or have a less demanding workload than in Ivies. The fact that it was difficult for you to adjust to the speed of working at universities (and I suspect it was, otherwise you would not remember it so vividly such a long time after your college days) does not mean that everybody has the same problem.
Just in case you want to know why then my D. wants to go only to her Top 10 US University, it is simple: money and opportunities. My D. is a freshman at the top British university and paid only 1000 pounds for this year of her education (we are Europeans). She only wants to drop out of her university if she is accepted to her dream university. We teach her always to try, not to give up even with SATs less than 1400 and to go for her dream. On the other – we also teach her to have respect for our hard-earned money. She is not applying for financial aid and she knows how much we would have to pay for her wish to study in US.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
You may not agree but I did not mix them at all ... the SAT requires one to work very fast ... and when I got to top schools I was required to work very fast. To me it is one component of the SAT that absolutely works ... the ability to think and work fast. When I read students in CC say they struggled to finish the SAT (because of time) and they want to go to a top 10 school my immediate reaction (given the limited info we see) is that may not be a good fit for that student ... the pace may be too fast at the top schools. But that is just me.

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</p>

<p>I get my assignments in on time and I did terrible on the SAT. Then again, I didn't bother studying, but I am a little slow in taking tests anyway, and never even finished it. I haven't even had a final exam in a college class as lengthy as the SAT.</p>

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<p>I do not want to get into a back and forth argument but I would like to clarify a couple things and move on.</p>

<p>
[quote]
What a patronizing remark! You just managed to offend quiet a number of hardworking and intelligent students, most of them Americans and most of them undoubtedly very intelligent.For somebody who studied in three top universities your logic is breathtaking! So, in your opinion those with SAT 1300+ or even 1200+ are not good enough for the top 10 universities because they may be too slow?

[/quote]

I apologize to anyone I offended with my remarks that was not my intention at all. I did not mention scores in my comments ... I did comment on speed ... the two topics are not necessarily ties together. For example, my verbal SAT score was pretty good but not great however I did finish standardized tests fairly quickly ... I am a fast reader however my vocabulary is not the best (especially true in my SAT & GRE days) which limited my score but without involving time pressure (I either knew the vocabulary stuff or not and moved on). In <em>my opinion</em> being a comparatively slower worker (especially reader ... and I joined this string to discuss people attending a school in a non-native language) makes it tougher at a top school ... that does not mean someone is less intelligent or can not do the work ... just that it a tougher road because the time pressure will be pretty constant ... that's just my opinion based on my experience. And of course opinions may vary!</p>

<p>
[quote]
Top 10 to 20 universities often are just as good as many of the Ivies, especially Ivies like Brown or your own alma mater, Cornell, but their SAT demands are lower because there applicant pool with highest SATs is often smaller. That does not mean that students in these Top 10+ Universities have a free ride, work slower or have a less demanding workload than in Ivies.

[/quote]

I agree with this ... I mentioned top schools without separating the IVYs ... when I say top schools I mean top private Us (IVY or otherwise), top LACs, and top State Us ... all of which can provide great experiences. FYI - one of my schools was an IVY ... the common thread of Cornell with the other two is that their school colors are red but that doen't seem to be very indicative of anything ... I agree top schools come in all flavors.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The fact that it was difficult for you to adjust to the speed of working at universities (and I suspect it was, otherwise you would not remember it so vividly such a long time after your college days) does not mean that everybody has the same problem.

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Actually speed saved me ... my downfall when I started school was time management and discipline and my grades suffered until I got my act together. </p>

<p>
[quote]
We teach her always to try, not to give up even with SATs less than 1400 and to go for her dream

[/quote]
Best of luck with your daughter's search!</p>

<p>Again, I apologize to anyone I offended.</p>