SAT Scores of URMS at Ivies

Applying to College
101

<p>Good point semi!</p>

<p>glucose, you aren't the only one here that thinks that, but if you do, you are worng in most situations. there are many URMs that could have gotten in on merit, but we will never know who they are or how great there numbers are</p>

<p>Boy the end of that LBJ quote is very socialist to me, and don't get me started on the evils of socialism.</p>

<p>"You do not wipe away the scars of centuries by saying: 'now, you are free to go where you want, do as you desire, and choose the leaders you please.' You do not take a man who for years has been hobbled by chains, liberate him, bring him to the starting line of a race, saying, 'you are free to compete with all the others,' "</p>

<p>This part is basically true, but there is no other just alternative to the freedom. In advocating AA, LBJ was trying to heal scars by adding more scars. Policies like health care, welfare, and government scholarships pick up where the simple freedoms of the Civil Rights era and the Emancipation left off. We can help all the people that need it without giving the help based on race. The people that LBJ is talking about that need more help than just being granted freedom can and should get it on a NEED basis, not a RACE basis. In AA, we are denying non URMs the freedom to "do as you desire" and denying URMs the freedom to "compete with all the others" .</p>

102

<p>Sorry Bananas, we highjacked your post, but I do not believe the info on SAT scores for those schools is available. They don't like to show them, because they are embarassing numbers.</p>

103

<p>
[quote]
Ahhh, we've come across another form of discrimination. Age discrimination. I can't be right, I'm only 16, I haven't experienced enough yet to come to the 'correct' liberal conclusion. So you really think that over time, I will realize that everyone is racist against blacks and that they should get my job, because, well, because they're black? There's nothing compassionate about AA.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No one is discriminating against your age becasue you can be entrenced in a mindset at any age. No, What I am saying is that if you still have the same mindset at 30,40,50 as you have to day at 16, it is really going to suck to be you as all of your education and experiences really haven't taught you a thing because *When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. * In the end you are saying that you that all your experiences begin and end in podunk Sterling and that you have no need to grow whether it is socially, mentally or whatever. </p>

<p>What you will more likely experience in the work place is not a black person taking your job , but rather someone whose in a decision makers in crowd taking your job without having to do the work. </p>

<p>So this too is where I bow out because I hope that I have the good sense to know that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. While I can't change the world I can only change my small piece of it.</p>

104

<p>I'll end my participation here by saying that I really hope those who have grown up in small towns without much diversity take the opportunity to go to a college with great diversity in a different part of the Country. Attitudes here are much more easily understood when put in the context of growing up in small, non diverse, economically hurting places. Actually, that describes where racism thrieves, although no one believes they're racist because the whole town shares the sentiments. </p>

<p>Exposure is everything, how do you understand things you haven't seen first hand? How do you understand that my black friends are followed around stores as shoplifting suspects if you have no black friends? If you've never been in a rich white town being driven by a black man, racial profiling is something maybe you once saw on TV. </p>

<p>It all makes much more sense in context.</p>

105

<p>The internet is great, but until you get out into the world, you just don't know what you don't know. Drummerboy, the more you speak, the more obvious this becomes. Your opinions about city folk are as unknowing and off base as your AA sentiments. I agree with Suze, go far for college, the way you see the world will change!</p>

106

<p>Ahhh, people from small towns are racist? 1 in 5 people in my town is Hispanic. We have murals celebrating the contributions of hispanics to our town and the country. Our school has a large bilingual program. We got two years of a class called 'foreign cultures' in middle school. I am taking 4 years of Spanish. But I'm so racist aren't I? Everyone in my town must be evil! I don't understand minorities or anything about other peoples do I?</p>

<p>"The way you see the world will change"</p>

<p>So instead of defending your positions, instead of explaining yourselfs, you just call me racist and insist that it's because I haven't had enough exposure to city people? I cited a general trend I noticed in the difference between the people around me and in cities. Well here is another trend, the city folks always think they know everything, and if someone doubts you, it is because they simply don't know enough. Not once in this discussion did someone pick a serious bone about my logic, reasoning, or facts. Not once. No, all they could say was that I must be an uneducated racist. I guess by saying "the way you see the world will change" you mean that I will think that everyone is racist and that people from small towns are bigoted hillbillies. What is the state of our higher education system today when the products of it spout this trash?
O and suze, you say you live in a big city and see racism, but now you are saying that racism is found mostly in small towns. Which one is it? If you haven't lived in a lot of small towns, how would you know? You asked yourself "how do you understand things you haven't seen firsthand?" Well under that logic all history classes are worthless. By that line of thought, I can't understand the Holocaust, slavery, or the Vietnam war. If that is true, how can I stand here and say that slavery and the Holocaust were wrong?And you can't claim to know about the small towns and the big cities, unless you've spent a lot of time in a variety of both kinds, which I seriously doubt is the case. O, and you know what, I do have black friends. You know what else? The employees follow ALL of us teenagers around, not just the black ones. It is just your mindset that says not "they are following us because we are teenagers" (which happens because teenageers are statistically more likely to steal) but "they are following us because we are black". If you truly believe the employee is racist, take him to court, and if you win, then I will believe that, perhaps, just maybe, that the one employee is racist, not that the whole world is. </p>

<p>"If you've never been in a rich white town being driven by a black man, racial profiling is something maybe you once saw on TV. "</p>

<p>I've been to weddings where nearly everyone there was white, and the workers at the reception hall were all URMs (in one of those bastions of racial equality, a large city). That is not racial profiling, nor is it racial profiling when you are being driven by a black man. Why were you so obsessed with seeing what race everyone was anyways? I bet the black man was happy to have a good job. He chose to accept the job, afterall. Explain the racial profiling there. It doesn't even make sense to me. </p>

<p>In conclusion to everyone: Thanks to those that supported me. It is sad to see people like Michael Moore lie and distort their way to a conclusion that would make no sense to an unbiased person viewing all the facts. But it is even more sad to see your reaction to the counterpoints put to you. You didn't lie like Moore, you just made verbal assaults on my character. This is now the face of those in favor of AA. No real opposition to my facts. No real different interpretations of the hard data. Not even other data to counteract mine. Just infantile assaults, calling me a racist and suggesting that I can't possibly have enough 'exposure' to know anything. These are the 'arguments', if you can call them that of today's left wing. Long couped up in their pseudosophisticated cities and "top colleges" controlled by lunatics who advocate radical terrorist causes, insist that everything longer then it is wide is a phallic symbol, and like those liberals here, label anyone who doesn't agree with their socialist ideology a 'racist'. The books of Thomas Paine, Toqueville, Dinesh D'Souza, and David Horowitz have trained me, and when I get on a liberal campus in 2 years, I am going to be raising a whole lotta' hell.</p>

107

<p>Hey guys, what an interesting thread! I am a black female here and I will be going to Princeton in the fall. I, in a way, agree that minorities are given an edge in the admissions process. For example you have two applicants to an elite school: One is a black male with an (old) SAT score of 1550 from a high class neighborhood and the child of very very well recognized affluent parents. His high school is one of the top-ranked in the country and offers a wide range of resources, including SAT prep and AP classes starting from middle school. He never really has to challenge himself to anything. On the otherv hand, you have a white male from an inner city who goes to a school that is struggling and offers no SAT prep and minimal AP classes. He managed to do his best by buying test prep books, looking up SAT prep classes, and taking all 5 AP courses offered by his school. He ended up with a 1550 through his very hard work. His combined family income is only $30,000. Both students are ranked #1 in their classes. Who do oyu think will get accepted? In my opinion the black kid is most likely going to get accepted under AA when, the white kid is very well qualified also. If I were an admissions officer, I would be more willing to accept the white student because his history shows a student wh perseveres and takes full advantage of opportunities. He has had to work a lot harder to get where he is andthis is a desirable trait for any school. The black student is also qualified but he has not had to overcome such difficulty. </p>

<p>I am 100% against AA because it IS reverse racism and the worst part about it (which no one has mentioned) is that it ASSUMES that blacks, latinos, etc are naturally dumber than whites and need a boost to do well. That infuriates me because it tells me that because my skin is brown, standards have to be lowered for me. I believe that instead of looking at race, AA supporters need to start looking at environment. I consider myself disadvantaged but not because I'm black, it's because of where I grew up. I live in the inner city and went to a high school that was as disadvantaged as can be. We were not offered many AP classes or SAT classes and had problems with overcrowding, outdated supplies, violence, etc. So, although my SAT was a little lower than average Princetonians (1350) I attribute it to my social stuation and not because I am black. I have heard many people say that they should apply to "far-fetched" schools because they'll get in anyeway because they are "black or hispanic." These people think they don't have to work as hard because their skin color has put them "in the door." For this reason, I believe that AA can breed laziness too. AA should be done away with for the above reasons. People should be solely admitted based on qualification. If it so happens that white people will start to dominate America's colleges, then so be it. It gives us minorities all the more reason to work harder. At least we will then know where we stand against the total population, something AA does not allow us to do. If anyone disputes the fact that how well a student does is dependant on social background and not race, answer the following: A white child and a black child are adopted together at birth and grow up together in a foster home. Both are totally healthy with nothing to affect their intelligence and both do equally well in school. Is it safe to say that the black child is naturally dumber and needs a boost in college admissions to put him at the same level as his "smarter" white foster brother? Or are both children equally qualified an neither should have an advantage over the other? </p>

<p>Many may not agree with me but I agree to disagree and everyone is entitled to his/her own opinions. I don't want to offend anyone, I omly want to show that AA is a terrible idea and hurts both parties. It hurts whites through "legal" reverse racism and it hurts minorities by degrading them and assuming they cannot compete with their white counterparts. People who have opposed my arguments have asked me what would I do if there was no AA and I could not get into Ivies or get good jobs. My response: I have to accept the fact that I was not qualified. Many (not all) people who strongly support AA are the same exact people who believe that abolishing AA will result in result in a drastic fall in the amount of minorities being admitted. Such a shame that these people want "the best" for minorities but subconsciously don't even believe in their abilities to hold their own without help from AA! Sorry for the long post guys! :)Again, no harm meant.</p>

108

<p>"Who do you think will get accepted?"</p>

<p>I'd bet that both would be accepted. Both would be rare and remarkable. They wouldn't be pitted against each other, but would be each appreciated by coleges for their achievements and rarity. </p>

<p>The black male with a 1550 would be among probably fewer than 50 such people in the country (A Washington Post article of 2 years ago said that only about 72 African Americans scored 1450 or higher on the SAT that year). A white male from a low income background who scored that high would be among very few people of any race with such scores and a low income, disadvantaged background. The colleges would want both of them.</p>

<p>If the black student whom you described never had to challenge himself to do well in school and on tests, he would be being hurt by being in a school system that doesn't meet his needs. He certainly would benefit by finally getting to go to a college that would challenge him.</p>

<p>The white student whom you described would have done extraordinarily well to overcome a background and school that didn't do much to help him prepare for SATs, etc. He, too, would be very deserving of going to a highly competitive college. </p>

<p>There really would be room for both.</p>

109

<p>trisa217, not to be mean, but if you know it is wrong to you, don't you feel selfish? I'm not trying to bring you down, but as a URM, and one that doesn't agree with it, why didn't you choose "Other" on the race box, if it is against your beliefs?</p>

110

<p>That was the best post on the thread. I thank you a lot, because often I feel like a bad person being white and against affirmative action. I shouldn't, but I can't help feeling that it is somehow wrong, that I will be considered racist, which I sometimes am. I have sympathy for you, trisa, because if I was in your position, never knowing what would have happened if I hadn't been given favors, never knowing how I actually stacked up, I think that would lower my self esteem a lot.<br>
But, trisa, simply by recognizing how wrong AA is, and successfully arguing against it, you have shown the wisdom and maturity that tells me, at least, that against the white applicants, you could have gotten in. Kudos on pointing out the biggest inherent problem with AA: that it in effect it is saying that blacks and Hispanics are less intelligent than everyone else. It was inspiring to me to see you say that you were not qualified. I don't know if you were qualified, you may have been given the circumstances, but your willingness to admit the possibility overshadows to me, all the AA defenders who are so rigid in their stance because they can't cope with the possibility that they might not have made it with AA. </p>

<p>"Such a shame that these people want "the best" for minorities but subconsciously don't even believe in their abilities to hold their own without help from AA!"</p>

<p>A great line, and one that could lead us to logically conclude that it is the defenders of AA who are racist against minorities, because they are professing the belief that the URMs are too dumb to be there without AA.</p>

<p>Have a great time at Princeton, trisa, I hope to see you there in a couple of years!</p>

111

<p>Glucose, you aren't supposed to lie. Marking 'other' would be a lie. She is not 'other' she is African-American. No matter how wrong the system, it is not immoral to use the system for it's intended purpose.</p>

112

<p>If she put African-American, then she would be doing for what you stand for...no AA.</p>

113

<p>It would not have made a difference because my school puts a photo of every kid on the transcript. Also, I thought about not checking the race box only because I'm not 100% black, but then I thought, why? I am proud to consider myself a black person and and black person doing well despite my other problems. I also knew that, AA policy or not, I was applying to Princeton and Yale because I knew that I could handle the work, not because of the fact that I may have an easier time getting in just because I checked "black". To be totally honest with you, I never even considered AA during my application process because of my feelings toward it. Checking my race was just another box to check for me. I will always continue to check "black" on anything I fill out, not because of some idea that I will get special attention, but because of my pride. I just don't see that as selfish and it's funny you say that because, to myself and everyone who knows me, I am very fair. I am a strong advocate of fairness and equality and I just don't feel that AA promotes this. I'm sorry if you disagree but that's just me. BTW, no offense taken to your post.</p>

<p>To northstarmom, sorry I did not specify. I was implying if the two mentioned students were tied for one spot left in the accepted class.</p>

114

<p>thanks drummerdude:)</p>

115

<p>I feel like such a bad person :-( It's just I hate when people think that URMs get into the Ivys, only on their skin color. I'm sorry if I offended anyone :-(.</p>

116

<p>don't feel bad. Like I said, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and should not have to feel guilty</p>

117

<p>This thread got rather long quickly and I only have the inclination to scan it. I came away from the whole thing totally disgusted by the fact that someone was called a racist for expressing a totally valid argument about Affirmative Action. This is one of the problems with dealing with the race issue. If a black professor doesn't get tenure at a university, then the college is racist. If you said anything negative about blacks, then you are a racist. Everyone looks out for themselves. A segment of the Harvard Black Alumni Club was quite upset recently that 41% of the slots at Harvard that they thought were going to their black kids are actually going to black immigrants and biracial applicants. Still, people ought to be able to discuss things without the R word being pulled out like a gun whenever someone disagrees with them.</p>

118

<p>I don't see why there is such an emphasis by black special interest groups on getting URM's into the top colleges. I understand why it is good for society. The people running things don't want to have the top colleges be almost totally non-URM. That would say a very thing about society, and the adcoms want to use create diversity on the top campuses. However, there are 1.4 million high school graduates each year. Of these, the top 10-15 colleges can only accept about 30-40,000 applicants. It didn't use to be like this, but for every applicant accepted, there are 4-5 statistically identical applicants who are denied because they don't have space. There may be some high school kids (and parents) who think that any system not based totally on merit is unfair, but AA is needed for the good of society. However, maybe there should be more emphasis on pulling up the mean of the black community instead of just getting a few of the top ones into Harvard. If you could get 10-20% more blacks into community college, that might have a bigger effect that increasing the number of blacks at Harvard by 1%.</p>

119

<p>Opportunity is hard to measure, and I believe AA is the best way to do so thus far. However, I am REALLY ****ed at the fact that many URMs in my school are about 5 times (no exag.) richer than I am and would probably get in with much weaker stats, while I, the Chinese guy, just get put in the pile with all the other Chinese guys.</p>

120

<p>Yes, it is agreed that the black high schooler needs help, needs something done to combat the fact that their scores are on average lower, and such. I like he suggestion somewhere above that we should focus on fixing the high schools, and maybe the lower schools, that are in the poorer neighborhoods and intercity areas where many URMs are found. I believe that would help more then righting off their communities and just applying AA later on, as if that fixes the problem.</p>