Senior parents: Help for parents of juniors

Parents Forum
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<p>DianeR has an excellent point regarding the use of those SAT ranges in choosing schools that are safetys, match and reaches. These ranges can be totally misleading at the most selective schools. For these places, many of the students who are scoring in that 25-75% range are the athletes, the exceptional talent, the geographic and socioeconomic hooked candidates, the legacies, URMs, those applying ED etc. For the fully capable, but mostly unhooked student, you are more likely to need scores at 75% and higher. No, scores aren't everything - but for someone without any real hooks, they become more important.</p>

<p>One other thing I thought I would mention. Although some schools now accept the ACT that didn't before, there are still those that clearly state their <em>preference</em> for the SAT - something I would consider, if I were applying to that school.</p>

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<p>I agree with both of you. My daughter had other qualities that allowed her to be accepted with an SAT closer to the 25% range. Granted she did not aspire to the Ivies but she does have classmates that have had the experience that you speak of. Our two top students applied to very elite schools ED and both got deferred. </p>

<p>Daughter is an outstanding competitive dancer and she is also a legacy (I hate to admit it but this does help) along with her top 5% class ranking in a competitive public high school.</p>

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<p>Who do you know that specifies a preference for the SAT? The only one I've run across (not that I've done an in depth study or anything!) is Princeton. Fortunately, my daughter had no interest in that school. Nothing against it per se, I hasten to add, it just doesn't have what she wants to study. Brown does, and fortunately accepted her. I think her hook there was what she wanted to study.</p>

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<p>"Thanks, bxian. I wasn't sure whether schools consider the combined CR/M/W score or look at each individually. With my son's high writing score (like yours), the combined total looks pretty strong."</p>

<p>I wouldn't put much emphasis on combined scores, which I think is a concept hyped by US News. The schools I'm familiar with look at individual scores. I know of a very deserving lop-sided scorer who was rejected ED by a top LAC that apparently didn't like her lower score.</p>

<p>I don't know how the more fomula-driven state schools look at it.</p>

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<p>Wake is the only school I know of that is SAT-only. I believe Princeton has recently joined the list that accepts SAT/ACT, with no stated preference. I think (not sure) that Randolph-Macon says they prefer the SAT.</p>

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<p>Princeton takes either ACT with writing or SAT as does Randolph-Macon.</p>

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<p>They do, but Randolph-Macon's viewbook says "we prefer the SAT, but the ACT is acceptable" I guess I'd be a little nervous submitting only an ACT score, particularly if I'm from a state where traditionally most people take the SAT, not the ACT.</p>

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<p>DianeR - I know that Penn recently had this preference stated on their site, but I can't find it now - maybe it's been changed. I still think it's good to ask the school directly if there is any preference. I also think it's a good idea to find out what percentage of applicants are submitting one test over the other for a given school. </p>

<p>I do have to wonder, given that the majority of highly selective USNews ranked schools show the SAT, not ACT score ranges, whether or not a really good SAT score would give that student a boost (because it contributes to more visible USNews rankings). I'm cynical enough to think it might.</p>

<p>ACTs have been gaining popularity fast, even here in the northeast. As people have mentioned, you can skip the requirement for SAT IIs in some cases (some schools still require them even with the ACT) and you can report only the scores you wish.</p>

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<p>Huh, I guess we're brave then, taking the ACT in an SAT state and sending the scores to schools in other SAT states! Everybody around here thought we were living dangerously, but I just didn't think so. Maybe because I'm originally from ACT country ... Then they thought we were oddballs because we homeschooled, too.</p>

<p>I did ask every potential school and everyone said it didn't make any difference. Even Penn, which did (I think) use to say something on its web site, not a preference so much as an indication of their lack of experience of people just sending in ACT scores. But it doesn't seem to be there anymore.</p>

<p>According to the Princeton web site, the ACT is acceptable "*f all of your other college choices require ACT results and not the SAT." I can't imagine that happening very often.</p>

<p>I didn't know about Randolph Macon and Wake Forest. They weren't on our radar. Still it doesn't look like we are looking at a very long list of places that require or prefer the SAT I.</p>

<p>This seems to be a perennial topic on discussion boards. I know it's been discussed on the ACT board on CC. Others have reported getting into Ivies with just the ACT so it's not just us. Some people just "feel" there is a preference, even if colleges don't say so and deny a preference when they are directly asked. I always say, colleges can have a preference if they want, so why would they lie about it?</p>

<p>At Brown, the acceptance rate for those submitting the ACT is the same as those submitting the SAT.</p>

<p>I don't know about the idea of places just showing the SAT ranges. Every place my daughter looked at in SAT land had ACT ranges as well.</p>

<p>According to the Kaplan test prep company (<a href="http://www.math.com/students/kaplan/satoract.html):%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.math.com/students/kaplan/satoract.html):&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>SAT or ACT?
Information provided by <a href="http://www.kaptest.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.kaptest.com&lt;/a>
You might wonder why you have to choose between the SAT and the ACT--maybe one of the two is favored by the students in your school. Ten or 20 years ago, choosing which test to take wasn't even an issue. Until recently, the ACT was traditionally required by colleges in the midwest, and the SAT was the test of choice in the northeast and on the east and west coasts. But now an increasing number of students are taking the ACT, and the majority of schools in the United States now accept both SAT and ACT test results. </p>

<hr>

<p>The Power of Prediction
While the SAT and ACT are very different tests, they both fulfill the same role in the admissions process. </p>

<hr>

<p>How This Affects You
This increased acceptance of the ACT gives today's savvy students a strategic advantage. The SAT and ACT are significantly different tests, and in many ways, they measure different skills. So depending on your particular strengths and weaknesses, you may perform much better on one test than the other. As a result, many students embarking on the admissions process are now considering both the SAT and ACT--to figure out which test provides a better showcase for their abilities. </p>

<p>What's the Difference?
Admissions officers and educators often describe the difference between SAT and ACT in these terms: the ACT is a content-based test, whereas the SAT tests critical thinking and problem solving. This perception is one reason many educators (off the record) express a preference for the ACT--because they believe that the ACT is closer to testing the "core curriculum" taught in most school classrooms. In fact, this contrast isn't exactly watertight. Many questions on the ACT test critical thinking, and there is a predictable range of material that's tested on the SAT. But the SAT and ACT reward different attributes, so performing well on each test can boil down to what kind of test taker you are.</p>

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<p>DianeR, my D took the ACT....did NOT take the SAT at all. Was accepted SCEA to Yale. If that isn't testimony to the equivalence with which these schools view the two standardized tests, I don't know what is.</p>

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<p>You are absolutely correct to take it for granted that there is no negative to taking the ACT as far as the schools that accept it (most of them now) are concerned. My <em>only</em> question, and I may be totally off base, had to do with the USNews rankings lists. This annual list (by which so many of the colleges as well as students live and breathe) show and rank most of the selective schools by <em>SAT</em> scores. Since that's the case, I was just wondering about the potential hook factor for someone who has particularly high SAT scores - because it seems that that is what is counted (weighted) in the rankings. I wasn't at all suggesting that the converse was true (ie you will not get in because you took ACTs instead).</p>

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<p>I haven't read through this whole thread, but my main advice to a junior would be to start looking at colleges now if you haven't started. Get in as man as you can junior year. Finish all your testing junior year (if something comes out badly, you can retake it senior year, but get as much as possible done). Do the college essays over the summer. Don't visit many schools is the summer as they don't "feel" the same. We just waited too long for everything and it was very stressful in the fall. Also, be realistic about your - or your child's-college chances and try to find schools s/he will be happy at. A few reaches are fine, but don't drag your kid around to every Ivy League school with SAT scores in the 600s and a 3.5 average.</p>

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<p>roshke,</p>

<p>I just looked up the US News rankings online. They say the factor is for "SAT/ACT" scores. I imagine that ACT scores are converted to their SAT equivalent for this purpose so there can be one consistent figure for all schools and students (there is an accepted translation chart). This is what schools that usually get SAT scores do for admissions purposes so they can compare applications.</p>

<p>Think about it. How would US News rank a school that usually gets ACT scores? Those scores would have to be converted to their SAT equivalent, either by the school itself or US News.</p>

<p>I was talking about admissions once with a director of admissions at an east coast school. I think it was a reliable conversation, particularly since he knew my daughter had no interest in his school. (We both happened to be on a discussion list and had started up an offlist conversation.) He's the one who first told me about the conversion chart. Anyway, at his school (and I wouldn't be surprised, at others), the office personnel putting together the files do any necessary conversion of scores. The committee doesn't even see what test was taken, unless they choose to dive into the file for some reason. He said he didn't know any colleges that secretly "prefer" the SAT.</p>

<p>I think "particularly high SAT scores" would probably be a hook about anywhere, if one defines particularly high as high for a specific school's applicant pool. But then, particularly high ACT scores would work the same way, I would think.</p>

<p>If a student has equally good scores in both the SAT and ACT, there is no reason not to take and report both. They are somewhat different tests, so having the second test would be a confirmation of ability/achievement. But if a student scores significantly better on one or the other -- you can tell this from practice tests -- barring a plan to apply to a school that requires or expresses a preference for one or the other test, that student should just go with what shows him/her to best advantage.</p>

<p>My opinion, anyway.</p>

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<p>So I interpret eulenspiegel's post to mean that your child is only as strong as his weakest score.</p>

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<p>That might be over reading my post. We were talking about very lop-sided scores. It might well be that two relatively close scores are averaged. Who can say?</p>

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<p>To get back to the original thread, one of the things I would have done differently would have been to emphasize the SAT II's a little more. My S did great on both the SAT and the ACT with no real prep. His scores on the Math II and French subject tests were not quite as good. We both kind of blew them off as just "placement" tests...690 and 600 didn't seem to correlate with his other scores and he was surprised how difficult the tests were. I think practice tests might have helped a lot.</p>

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<p>Studious mom - that's an excellent point. The very selective colleges are said to weigh the SAT IIs as highly as the SATs. We also got taken by surprise by the importance of these. Since most schools only look at the highest score for each subject test, and the highest score in each section of the SAT(even if it's on different dates of the test), it's good to leave time to retake, since scores can only go up.</p>

<p>DianeR - Thanks for clearing that up for me and others. IMO, these types of questions are worthwhile to ask. People tend to take things at face value in college admissions, when sometimes there is more to the story. One example of this is the statement that many schools are need-blind. Well, yes, if you ignore the fact that schools employ enrollment managers for the purpose of marketing to wealthier districts, or engage in the practice of admit/deny effectively eliminating an individual kid's chance to attend a given school. Another "gray" area is in the USNews stats that claim 90% of a school's class was top 10% of the class. They don't come straight out and say that half of the class wasn't ranked to begin with! And certainly that 25-75 percent range that was discussed. It's in the college's best interest to have as many as possible apply (to boost their selectivity) and encourage many who really don't have a good chance. These types of things aren't always immediately obvious to someone trying to make a viable list and determine their chances. I'm glad to hear that the ACTs really are a good option for students who want to take them.</p>

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<p>My gut feeling is that the weaker score is looked at, but just to see that it is not disqualifying. My daughter scored at the 92th percentile on math and science. This wasn't going to get her in at some schools if she had wanted to study math or science. But it wasn't so low that such schools would reject her when it was clear that what she wanted to study was something else entirely -- and was supported by much higher scores in English and reading and by coursework with and a recommendation by someone in the field.</p>

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<p>Oh, roshke, dare I mention that my daughter didn't submit any SAT II scores either? :) No APs. I could explain why, but I don't think it would be of general interest. Thing is, people thought we were being very foolhardy and that these things absolutely had to be done for her to have a chance at any of the reach schools she applied to. </p>

<p>Maybe her hook was that her application was so unusual ...</p>

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<p>roshke:</p>

<p>small nit, but USNews (online, and I assume the detail in thier tome) does report what % of matriculants indicate a class rank; USNews also reports % of students who submit ACT scores (if available). For example, 39% of Princeton's first year class provide a ranking, but ACT was NA; it's 52% provide class rank to Brown, and 23% provide ACT (some obvious overlap since 95% submit SAT). Williams numbers are 35% rank, ACT-NA. Amherst is 54% rank.</p>

<p>Interestingly, Penn shows 100% of students submitting class rank......hmmmmm -- where is Xiggi (to assist Stetson with data analysis).</p>