<p>To those of you obsessed with SAT scores; there is much, much more you should be thinking about and working on. Our D's scores, grades and EC's were similar to much of her first choice school's EA pool. What made the difference was passion, interest and ability to express both in action and word. Many people with excellent credentials are turned down from the top schools each year. Usually comments like "750 M score too low" or "got a B+ sophomore year" as reasons for the rejection. Reality is, no one thing will cause rejection. A S or D that works hard and gets good grades, takes the hardest classes and does some meaningful EC's does not need to be perfect. Time spent exploring your interests would be a lot more valuable. Please don't forget that these are still kids and free time to be a kid is essential. Try not to spend all your time trying to prepackage an assumed "ideal candidate", such things do not exist.</p>
<p>DianeR - Glad your daughter proved everyone wrong! It's true that one of the advantages of the ACT with writing is that many schools then don't require any additional SAT IIs. </p>
<p>bluebayou - Thanks - that's interesting. The stats you are referring to aren't in the popular magazine version - they may be in their huge book. I <em>can</em> tell you that Penn isn't reporting class rank for 100% of the students, far from it. My S just got in there ED and our school does not report rank. The way it works is that we do not provide a rank unless a school specifically asks for one. Penn didn't. Ditto for many schools that I am aware of - must be a mistake. </p>
<p>AKGIRL - I agree with you. For very selective schools, even perfect scores and grades alone will not get you in. Less than perfect with other factors going for you might. But I will leave you with a quote from the dean of admissions at Penn. He said something like "testing is less important than you think and more important than you hope" or some words to that effect! And in an interview he came right out and said that testing (not sure if he meant including GPA) is worth 40% of the app! </p>
<p>Also from the Penn thread- here is a great chart that was in the NewYork Times - it ranks the importance of various factors (SAT, essay, recs etc.) for many of the selective colleges!</p>
<p>AKGIRL, well said. It may seem like a random process involving luck, but I believe the very selective schools are looking for much more than SATs and grades. They are not looking for a lot of well rounded EC's which are mainly activities done through school. They are looking for kids who are alive with interests and passions and who demonstrate self discipline and determination in accomplishing their goals. Those accomplishments need to be something more than going to school and grubbing for grades and joining a bunch of clubs.</p>
<p>How important are SAT IIs--most of the dozen or so schools my jr D is interested in do not require them; some of them even have told us they do not 'recommend' them as they don't consider them in the review process. My D will be taking several AP tests this spring as well as a 2nd round of SAT/ACT and I dread her having to review for still another set of exams. All the schools accept either SAT or ACT (or don't require either). She is already at or above the 75% for all but one reach school she is considering. We aren't so much concerned with acceptance as higher scores' effect on financial (merit) aid. EVen if schools say SAT IIs aren't required, is it still to one's advantage to submit them??</p>
<p>If a reach school recommends SAT IIs, treat them as required, at least if the reach school is, say, a top 25 type. 75% SAT I is not a substitute, nor are APs. But with good SAT I scores, SAT II math shouldn't be a problem, and there are probably some overlaps between her APs and possible SAT IIs. That would bump another round of SAT I until fall.</p>
<p>
[quote]
My suggestion: Trade in [the] procrastinating child for [a] motivated one that will follow all [of] these great parent pleasing suggestions. And make sure the motivated child has great grades and EC's to make it even better. ~kathiep
[/quote]
Do not get caught up in the hype, and remember that this is not your second chance to correct the mistakes you made when you applied to college 30 years ago. </p>
<p>Do not visit a college unless your S/D really wants to go. Even if you are driving by, and there is a flashing billboard with a giant arrow pointing to the entrance that says, "This is the PERFECT college for your future genius!" Just zip your lip and realize that there will be a lot of things that your kid will pass on because it's too soon for h/her to start the process. If she passes, she passes, and you keep driving on to the Jack-in-the-Box. </p>
<p>Be patient and wait for real signs that h/she is ready to move forward. A miracle will occur, and one day your child will express an interest in taking the SAT! (Try not to pass out when this happens.) The process of preparing for and applying to college happens in baby steps, not in leaps and bounds.</p>
<p>Be aware that there is a direct connection between parental words and oppositional behavior. For instance, you happen to mention that your coworker attended Harvey Mudd College and still keeps in touch with his fraternity brothers. Chances are, you've just vetoed it from your kid's list forever. :) </p>
<p>Try not to have a conversation like this:
*ZEPPO: Dad, let me congratulate you. I'm proud to be your son.</p>
<p>GROUCHO: My boy, you took the words right out of my mouth. I'm ashamed to be your father. I'd have horsewhipped you if I had a horse. You may go now. Leave your name and address for the girl outside and if anything turns up, we'll get in touch with you. Where are you going?</p>
<p>ZEPPO: Well, you just told me to go.</p>
<p>GROUCHO: So that's what they taught you in college. Just when I tell you to go, you leave me. You know you can't leave a schoolroom without raising your hand, no matter where you're going.</p>
<p>ZEPPO: Anything further, father?</p>
<p>GROUCHO: Anything further, father? That can't be right. Isn't it "anything father, further"? The idea! I married your mother because I wanted children. Imagine my disappointment when you arrived!* :D</p>
<p>"Do not get caught up in the hype, and remember that this is not your second chance to correct the mistakes you made when you applied to college 30 years ago."</p>
<p>I disagree. If you learned something from mistakes you made, why would you not help your child avoid the same mistake.</p>
<p>"Do not visit a college unless your S/D really wants to go. Even if you are driving by, and there is a flashing billboard with a giant arrow pointing to the entrance that says, "This is the PERFECT college for your future genius!" Just zip your lip and realize that there will be a lot of things that your kid will pass on because it's too soon for h/her to start the process. If she passes, she passes, and you keep driving on to the Jack-in-the-Box. "</p>
<p>Another big disagreement. We visited many college campuses and often took the tour (but not the info session) while driving by over a number of years. It can be fun and informative and give a picture of what college looks like for those who are not yet thinking much about college. You don't have to set your heart on Princeton just because you enjoyed a tour of the campus and like the town. Besides, what else would you do on a drive from Philly to NYC?</p>
<p>"Do not visit a college unless your S/D really wants to go. Even if you are driving by, and there is a flashing billboard with a giant arrow pointing to the entrance that says, "This is the PERFECT college for your future genius!" Just zip your lip and realize that there will be a lot of things that your kid will pass on because it's too soon for h/her to start the process. If she passes, she passes, and you keep driving on to the Jack-in-the-Box."</p>
<p>I think there are two ways of looking at this. I think if your S/D really doesn't want to visit/tour a particular college it may well be counterproductive to drag them through a tour. But I don't think it is smart to only visit colleges that your S/D is already interested in going/applying to. You (both parents and students) can learn a lot from visiting colleges that may not be on your short list, but can give you a feel for what to look for, what a small college or big university is like, etc. Then when you visit a college that really is on your S/D's wish list you will have better grounds for comparison.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I disagree. If you learned something from mistakes you made, why would you not help your child avoid the same mistake. ~eulen
[/quote]
It is not your mistake to correct. Advise, sure. Correct, no. Give them a chance to learn. You are not the one applying to college. </p>
<p>
[quote]
...if your S/D really doesn't want to visit/tour a particular college it may well be counterproductive to drag them through a tour. ~dadx3
[/quote]
Yes, that is my point. We agree. :)</p>
<p>I understand dadx3's advice to not visit a college unless your child wants to. But I had a different experience yesterday. My son has been VERY reluctant to visit ANY college except his "first and only choice". I kept telling him that he needed to visit a "back up" and a "safety". Yesterday (his school had the day off) I took him to a "safety school" that he had made it clear that he "would never go" (because it's not "high up enough" on rankings lists). He did not want to go -- (he didn't want to get out of bed on his day off from school). Well, he loved it. We went on the tour and he said that he had a really fun time at the school. He had had some "pre-conceived" notions about the school and the tour helped erase some of them.</p>
<p>jlauer95
This is very good advice to keep in mind. As parents we always have to decide which battles are worth fighting and which are not. I think it is important for kids to visit a wide range of schools before they decide which are their top choices. Some kids are more amenable to our prodding than others. But we need to decide when to push them if they are not ready take the first step themselves.</p>
<p>dadx3... yes, I know. The perennial question of which battles are worth fighting and which are not. Whenever I think a battle is worth it, I try to make it a win/win for both child and me so that the child won't stubbornly insist that he "didn't have a good time" or he "didn't like it", etc just to "prove" me wrong.) PLUS, I NEVER say "I told you so!!!" Instead, I express understanding as to why they are hesitant to do whatever.</p>
<p>Hey senior parents:</p>
<p>Do you know of any colleges that waive application fee if you apply online? Might be nice to form a list.</p>
<p>jlauer95--</p>
<p>Check this link:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=62933&highlight=waive%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=62933&highlight=waive</a></p>
<ol>
<li> Hobart & William Smith </li>
<li>
Lewis & Clark</li>
<li><p>Mt. Holyoke </p></li>
<li><p>Wellesley</p></li>
<li><p>American</p></li>
<li><p>Tulane</p></li>
<li><p>Notre Dame</p></li>
<li><p>Centre College -<a href="http://www.centre.edu/web/admission/howtoapply.html">http://www.centre.edu/web/admission/howtoapply.html</a></p></li>
<li><p>Lynchburg College - <a href="http://www.lynchburg.edu/enroll/app...-front-page.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.lynchburg.edu/enroll/app...-front-page.htm</a></p></li>
<li><p>Peabody College at Vanderbuilt-<a href="http://peabody.vanderbilt.edu/admissions/apply.htm">http://peabody.vanderbilt.edu/admissions/apply.htm</a></p></li>
<li><p>Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology -
<a href="http://www.rose-hulman.edu/admissio...on/freshman.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.rose-hulman.edu/admissio...on/freshman.htm</a></p></li>
<li><p>Also, we received admission fee waiver at several Universities by just asking while attending admissions presentation/sessions. </p></li>
<li><p>.Lycoming <a href="http://www.lycoming.edu/admiss/application/admisapp.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.lycoming.edu/admiss/application/admisapp.htm</a></p></li>
<li><p>Allegheny- <a href="http://www.allegheny.edu/admissions/apply/%5B/url%5D">http://www.allegheny.edu/admissions/apply/</a></p></li>
<li><p>Smith- <a href="http://www.applyweb.com/apply/smith/intl_instruct.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.applyweb.com/apply/smith/intl_instruct.html</a></p></li>
<li><p>Guilford- <a href="http://www.ncmentor.org/application...ication_id=1566%5B/url%5D">http://www.ncmentor.org/application...ication_id=1566</a></p></li>
<li><p>LeMoyne- <a href="http://www.xap.com/Applications/The...lication_id=368%5B/url%5D">http://www.xap.com/Applications/The...lication_id=368</a></p></li>
<li><p>Hood College- <a href="http://www.hood.edu/admissions/inde...applyOnline.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.hood.edu/admissions/inde...applyOnline.htm</a></p></li>
<li><p>Colgate has no fee for online applications; I think </p></li>
<li><p>U of Rochester doesn't.</p></li>
<li><p>If you get a common app, it lists the fees and whether they waive it for online apps.</p></li>
<li><p>University of Northern Colorado is free to apply to if your combination GPA/SAT or ACT scores are above a certain number. I think this applies to either online or paper, but my son applied online.</p></li>
<li><p>There is another variation - some schools solicit selected kids to do a "streamlined" and free app. Eg, S received such from Santa Clara U, called the Snapshot App - no fee, no essay, kind of a one-page fill in the blanks. I know Tulane did this (this may be what sybbie is referring to).</p></li>
<li><p>S had already applied early via commonapp on-line with fee. </p></li>
<li><pre><code>Kenyon - free online. Even if you do just the first, preliminary, part online and the rest by mail, it is free.
</code></pre></li>
</ol>
<p>From another recent thread:</p>
<p>When your child registers for the SATs or ACTs tell them to put the colleges that are receiving the scores in alphabetical order. Some of the colleges use this to try to determine a students level of interest in their school. Heads up also that they fill out an extensive demographic form while inside the test that includes ethnic background, religion and other questions. Discuss with your child ahead of time, if there's any question about how s/he wants to answer or not answer these questions.</p>
<p>In an interview situation or on the applications when asked what other schools you're applying to, avoid naming your reach schools as you may become a victim of Tufts syndrome. Name the comparable schools you are applying to instead.</p>
<p>What's Tufts Syndrome?</p>
<p>Here's one definition of Tufts:</p>
<p>Yield protection often occurs with the strongest applicants at schools that are yield-conscious. Yield refers to the proportion of students who matriculate (i.e. accept an admissions offer and attend the college) after acceptance to a college. If the yield rate is too low, some may view the school as undesirable. Yield-conscious schools who wish to inflate their yield or otherwise protect their yield from lowering employ such methods as waitlists and guaranteed transfer options to promising applicants who may appear to have numerous other college choices. Through waitlists, the applicant is not technically accepted and may never be unless the applicant shows active signs of interest in attending thereby not harming the school's acceptance rate or yield. Although the applicant has no real control over such policies, they can apply to other schools without such policies so as to not limit their options. The term "Tufts Syndrome" is sometimes used on college admissions message boards to refer to such practices of forced yield-protection, as schools like Tufts are perceived to waitlist and reject overqualified candidates for fear that they will choose other schools.</p>
<p>Unless finances are prohibitive, I strongly recommend that your children not list ANY schools when actually taking the SAT. The allows the students to "see" their scores before sending them. In addition, schools won't be able to draw conclusions based on these lists. I know that the kids get "free" schools if they list at the time of the exam, but, if possible, it is best to wait until the applications are actually submitted and send them at that time.</p>
<p>guiltguru, I have read your point in other threads but still am unclear. When a student sends a score report to multiple schools, is that list of schools visible to each who receives the report? Are you saying that this list is visible only when "free" scores are sent but not when you pay for the report? Please clarify for me.</p>