<p>Exactly. A lot of people always argue that going to any school is the same (in terms of education, later income, job prospects, etc.) because it depends on the student. Yes, a good job is obtainable without going to a great university for undergrad. But there’s so many other variables and so much that we don’t know. Sure, there have been studies, but each person is different (and who is to know the studies are conclusive, had the same controlled variables, such as med school or not, majors, etc.), and who knows what school A or school B would do for his/her future?</p>
<p>I always appreciate taxguy doing these posts because yes, it IS something to strongly consider. When I first started reading CC there was much more of a feeling that you were going to shortchange your child if you didn’t send them to the very best college possible, no matter if it meant you had to take out huge loans/drain your retirement fund/etc. Much better for people to see that like any other major financial decision there are multiple options, all with pros and cons. </p>
<p>We live in California so there wouldn’t be a free ride at a UC, but D1 was an NMF so there were free ride options. We discussed the tradeoff with her of using the money for something else (grad/professional school, covering living expenses while taking low or no-pay jobs after undergrad, funds to start a business, etc etc etc). She’s chosen the full-pay undergrad option. We aren’t taking out loans, and our retirement savings are in good shape, so the impact of her decision is on her. No idea how she’ll feel about her decision in a few decades–by that time I hope to have kicked my CC addiction so I won’t be reporting back on how it all ends up playing out. </p>
<p>There will be the same kind of tradeoff discussion with D2, though in her case the savings will be less dramatic because there won’t be any full-ride options unless fit is entirely tossed out the window.</p>
<p>"But was this his money, or his parents’? Would they have given the money to him for other uses? We pay full rate at an expensive private, but we’ve got no plans to buy our D a house or car, nor do we wish to. She knows that her adult lifestyle will be funded on her own dime, at whatever level she aspires to. We won’t provide lifestyle support on principle.’</p>
<p>^This.</p>
<p>I think it is absurd to think that if one’s parents aren’t using their money for your education that the money saved is going to go to the student to spend on whatever else they might want.</p>
If there was a one-size-fits-all answer, I wouldn’t inquire about statistics about the topic.</p>
<p>We are tracking all sorts of nuanced data. We are tracking how salary depends on industry, type of job, geographic location, gender, race, etc. We are tracking how law school admission outcomes vary with GPA and LSAT score. We are tracking the ethnic make-up of each neighborhood. Why is it unreasonable to ask if anyone has made an attempt to quantify the impact of undergraduate affiliation (by industry, geographic location, etc) recently?</p>
<p>This is a recurring discussion on CC. My feeling is that ‘prestige’ matters, but only ‘prestige’ in the eyes of people relevant to each individual student. (For many students, UMCP is actually a very ‘prestigious’ option with a strong brand in a number of areas.)</p>
<p>My administrative assistant spends more on dry cleaning than I spend on my entire wardrobe. Her choice; I don’t get to tell her she should be saving for her kids college educations or her own retirement. </p>
<p>For me- saving for college and then paying full freight at schools which seemed to be fantastic fits for each of the kids was a positive lifestyle decision for my family. They were all self-supporting within a few months of graduating, they all took advantage of the opportunities afforded them; they all worked hard and did well academically which of course is a bit of a feedback loop that I was right to invest in their education since their education seemed to be meaningful to them.</p>
<p>I don’t criticize people who look for a deal on college, nor do I offer advice. But I have been the recipient of verbal attacks, criticism, and just snarky advice from people who have told me that only an idiot pays full freight for college. I don’t really care-- but it’s an interesting social phenomenon.</p>
<p>Grad schools/Professional schools were mentioned as a consideration for undergrad. We all know that a lot changes in the 4 years of undergraduate studies and plans do alter. That cardiologist might have started out as a business major and a premed can end up being a banker. We can’t count on this to make undergrad decisions. We know of a bunch of kids who parents saved for med/law schools and they either didn’t go or didn’t get accepted.</p>
<p>I guess my point is with so many factors involve in the process, everyone will arrive at a different place but we can all agree on one thing - we want happy, well adjusted, educated, good people at the end of the 4 years. Whatever it takes to achieve these objectives will be good.</p>
<p>One can also value the experience regardless of whether it strictly “pays out.” All else being equal, I’d like my kids to have a private / elite college experience. I couldn’t care less whether it “pays out” versus attending the state flagship, any more than I evaluate taking them on a trip to Europe based on whether it “pays out.”</p>
<p>“If there was a one-size-fits-all answer, I wouldn’t inquire about statistics about the topic.”
-Exactly. Statistics is better collected at some specific forums here. For example, while admission to law school may (I say may as I am NOT familiar) depend on prestige of UG, admission to Med. School (I am much more familiar with that) does not depend on that. While by statistics, there is a greater %% accepted from Elite schools, these statistics is very misleading. First, because students coming to freshman class at Elite schools are pre-selected already and second because pre-medical comittees at Elite schools might not let thru some candidates who would have lower chance at getting accepted to Med. Schools and there are other reasons.
So, statistics by itself could be very very misleading. You got to investigate much deeper than that. And as far as Med. school admission goes, UG prestige might be the very last thing that adcom will be looking at (if at all). However, saving on UG education and paying instead for Med. School would mean a ton for a future MD. that will mean completely different life style, considering that average Med School loans are about $160k and many have up to $300k debt. Only about 14% of parents are paying Med. School tuitions. If you look closer, you might (?) discover that many of these students opted for free UG education, hence made resources available for their Med. Schools.
Again, the topic is much deeper than statistics, there are many factors and it even vary by state.</p>
And I’m familiar with MD/PhD admissions where prestige does play a role because its individual professors eyeballing the applications one by one, but also critical is whether you’ve done research and whether you actually understand that research when you come and interview. A surprising number of students don’t!</p>
<p>I absolutely agree. Personally I find this thought process baffling … </p>
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<p>I have trouble prioritizing a Beamer for me over what I perceive as a better education for my kids.</p>
<p>I also have run the numbers and at the time I ran the numbers <em>one</em> financial decision was enough to finance the difference between the cost of UMass and any private school. I buy relatively cheap cars (Honda Civics) and drive them to they die … the difference in following this path as opposed to serially leasing an upscale car like a Beamer is, over 18 years, was enough to finance a private school over UMass. While I love cars this was about the easiest decision I’ve ever made. </p>
<p>(PS - private schools costs have shot up so much that my original analysis has to be altered … the buy and drive to die now only covers about 3 years of the gap from UMass to a private school instead of 4 years of the gap.)</p>
<p>Bottom line would I trade my kid’s private school educations for UMass educations so I can live a higher life style? Not in a million years. And of course YMMV</p>
<p>(PS #2 - I also do not believe ANY school is worth going into major debt for )</p>
<p>I agree, and I’ve noticed that many people do not understand this when it comes to college. If you only attend college because it will get you a better-paying job, then straight-up ROI matters a lot. I would agree with the OP that from a strictly financial standpoint, attending an expensive big-name private is not necessary to get a good-paying job. What I don’t understand, however, is the argument that deferred consumption on the parents’ part for things like houses, cars, weddings etc. for adult children is somehow better financially (for the parents) than paying large amounts of money upfront for an undergraduate education. Either way, we see examples of values-based parental consumption on things that will not increase their own wealth in the long run.</p>
<p>Right. I get the argument if it is “it’s that, or eat cat food for your retirement.” But if the argument is “you could spend on a private / elite college, or you could spend on cars / weddings / down payments” – those aren’t fungible to me. I value education more than I value fancy cars, elaborate weddings or down payments.</p>
All of the examples you gave would be captured very well by statistics! Without hard numbers, all we can go by are individual anecdotes. I’d very much prefer a quality data set. </p>
<p>Of course one can and should go deeper and explore the dynamics underlying the data. But without data, there isn’t even a place to start. Just take a look at your own post. You were trying to analyze some hypothetical trend that may or may not actually exist. We need to ascertain what is first before it makes sense to ask “how” and “why.”</p>
<p>I completely agree. It is an individual decision based on personal finances and needs. I am happy DD1 is in a private college she is enjoying and benefiting from academically. When DD2’s turn comes, I hope to give her the same opportunities. Smile and Nod.</p>
<p>“I don’t criticize people who look for a deal on college, nor do I offer advice. But I have been the recipient of verbal attacks, criticism, and just snarky advice from people who have told me that only an idiot pays full freight for college. I don’t really care-- but it’s an interesting social phenomenon.”</p>
<p>These same people probably also hate you for paying your fair share of taxes. Look if you can not afford it, then that is one thing. Otherwise this is just another example of the have nots hating the haves.</p>
<p>Pizza Girl - but sometimes its not the decision between fancy cars, fancy weddings and fancy houses - it is the difference of a car, a wedding and a house. </p>
<p>Why do you want your child to have the experience of a “private/elite” school if not for the pay out? Do you not think that an intellectually curious student will seek out opportunities in an honors college flagship? Is it important for you or your child to be able to say they went to “XYZ”. I understand the desire to learn for the sake of learning but if that means putting the student or the parent in a difficult financial situation I don’t get it. Now…if you make enough money to pay out of pocket $200K for undergard - more power to you.</p>
<p>Also to consider - if a strong student goes to an honors college flagship they may have a quicker and easier opportunity to do research and have relationships with professors. Personally my DD is making the choice to go public honors sees the opportunity to not have to compete as much to research and work side by side with professors. An honors college is about the same size as a Private LAC and you still get to go to football games on Saturdays (at least that is the way my dd looks at it). And …it is tuition free!</p>
<p>I think answers will & should vary depending upon the circumstances of each case. Nevertheless, if the expensive, private school education is being financed through loans, then it’s probably an unwise choice.</p>
<p>This argument has been held so many times since I joined CC that I can’t even begin to count them. Likewise, the forum in which the question is (re-)introduced results in a predictable trend for the comments.</p>
<p>My questions for taxguy are: Why here? and Why now? Surely you have read it all before.</p>
<p>I do like b@r!um’s suggestion that someone set up a formal study of the issue using modern statistical tools. Do I see dissertation material for her or one of her pals at Stanford?</p>
<p>College is an investment, and I don’t think I saw anyone talking about ROI…</p>
<p>If you are set on med/law school, go with the cheaper school. Heck, go with the easier school. Med/law school care about GPA and MCAT/LSAT and not as much about where you went for undergrad. So blowing $200k on a private undergrad biology degree makes no sense, especially when med/law school will cost you another few hundred thousand. </p>
<p>If you are set on going into business/econ, choose the best school you get into as long as it’s within the top ~20 ranking. Prestige is a ton more important in this field. You don’t have to be a genius to push around numbers on Wall Street. </p>
<p>If you are set on engineering/CS, go with the cheaper option within reason unless MIT/Stanford/Cal/CMU are options. America has a severe deficit of such majors so finding a job shouldn’t be an option. </p>
<p>If you are not any of the above, go with the cheaper option and save your parents some money. If you want to major in sociology and be a social worker or head a nonprofit…well, kudos to you but you don’t need a fancy $200k degree. The exception is if you attend an Ivy because of how easy it is to jump to more lucrative job. So if you have the option of attending an Ivy, take it because the benefits stay with you for life. </p>
<p>I think people focus too much on “fit” and “prestige” without considering intended major/career.</p>
so I won’t be reporting back on how it all ends up playing out. </p>