So..... Berurah?

<p>Berurah,</p>

<p>A while back, (before all the wonderful admissions and program offers came rolling in) you commented that if you knew more, back when, you would have approached the entire college search and list differently with your S. At the time, I was wondering where you thought he went wrong in creating his list. However, just the other day someone (sorry, can't recall who) complimented your son on having a well-balanced list. :)</p>

<p>So .... looking back ... would your S have set up his list differently?</p>

<p>
[quote]
A while back, (before all the wonderful admissions and program offers came rolling in) you commented that if you knew more, back when, you would have approached the entire college search and list differently with your S. At the time, I was wondering where you thought he went wrong in creating his list. However, just the other day someone (sorry, can't recall who) complimented your son on having a well-balanced list. </p>

<p>So .... looking back ... would your S have set up his list differently?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>twinmom~</p>

<p>I'm so sorry that I somehow missed this post! I just came across it a few minutes ago. Please forgive my tardiness in replying! ;)</p>

<p>At different stages throughout this whole process, I have had very different feelings about the college list my son compiled. Since our experience, like that of so many others, was filled with quite a few unanticipated ups and downs, my feelings on this have continued to evolve.</p>

<p>Tonight, as I answer this post, I am speaking from the perspective of "one of the lucky ones" whose son has realized his fondest and most long-standing college dream. I suppose at this point, I could just look at the whole ordeal and say, "If everything hadn't happened EXACTLY as it did, we may not have had the outcome that we do now." But, notwithstanding that line of thinking, this is what I would have encouraged him to do differently:</p>

<p>1.) Take seriously the advice to "build your list from the safeties up". He definitely did not do this. My son began with a top-heavy list, and the list remained top heavy throughout the process. The problem I had in guiding him was that with his test scores and transcripts, I had some difficulty distinguishing between matches and reaches for him. In a sense, his reaches WERE his matches, and it has become obvious from some of the results of CCers' kids that this is a very real problem for some of the very high functioning kids. For example, I would have thought that andi's son would have had no issue at all getting into Oberlin (as an NMF and exceedingly talented musician), but he was waitlisted there. In light of that, I would have had my son research more safeties (preferably ones with generous merit money), and I would have encouraged him to "fall in love with them".</p>

<p>2.) I would have encouraged him to apply to at least two schools with rolling admissions so that some of the pressure could have been released. He only applied to one school with rolling admissions, the University of Michigan. Unfortunately, I was fairly ignorant regarding the workings of rolling admissions, so I didn't realize the enormous benefit (particularly psychologically) in getting that app. in early. My son did not turn his Mich. app in until Jan. 10. I will always wonder if an earlier submission of that application might have resulted in a better financial aid package and maybe even some merit money. As it was, he only received a tiny loan from them, though he did hear back about his acceptance in only 5 weeks. </p>

<p>3.) I would have discouraged his EA app. to Yale. IMHO, that whole experience was WAY too costly, both psychologically and time-wise. My son spent a GREAT deal of time on that application. He spent many, many hours on the essays and put everything he had into presenting the best possible picture of himself and his abilities. The ease with which that whole application was shot down by the adcom really unnerved my son (and me!) and it shook his confidence to the core. In addition, the time spent on that ONE application took away from time spent on some of the subsequent ones. In retrospect, if my son had been determined to submit that EA applicaiton, I would have encouraged him to treat it as he did each and every other app--I would have encouraged him to do it, submit it, and then forget about it and move on to the other ones. All in all, the Yale EA app. significantly impacted the Stanford app. (which was due on the same day as the Yale rejection came in), and the rejection completely demoralized him and made it difficult for him to work on the other apps. (most due within two weeks of the rejection) with the enthusiasm that they deserved.</p>

<p>4.) I would have encouraged my son to research and apply to more schools known for good merit aid and schools which were seeking applicants with either his demographics or area of interest--in other words, try to seek out places where he would be in demand.</p>

<p>5.) I would have had more discussion with my son regarding best/worst case scenarios and made sure that he fully understood the implications of his choices. For example, the philosophy he began with was this: "I want to try for this school and that school and this other school, and if I don't get into any of those, then I'll just go to the flagship U. and save the money for grad school". Well, as time wore on, and he realized that the flagship U was a REAL possibility, he got VERY nervous and changed his whole philosophy, but it was almost too late for him to do that. We did end up adding a couple of schools at the very end, but his list remained nearly unchanged throughout the entire process, and we became quite nervous about it as time wore on. One of the schools that we added later turned out the be a very good choice. UMiami offered him great merit money and provided an excellent alternative to attending school in state, something he really didn't want to do, as it turned out.</p>

<p>6.) I would have paid more attention to "priority deadlines" for our state U. to guarantee the largest financial aid package if our choice had come down to that. It would have taken very little effort to get everything in to University of Kansas earlier, and it would have probably resulted in even more merit money than he received. </p>

<p>Of course, I might have had much more to say about this if things hadn't turned out the way they did for him. While it's true that all's well that ends well, this whole process could have been more enjoyable and less stressful if we had done the things I mentioned above!</p>

<p>I thank you, twinmom, for asking this question, and I hope that this answer helps some folks for next year! ~berurah</p>

<p>Thanks for those helpful insights! :-)</p>

<p>Twinmom & Berurah: I wonder if the "second-guessing" really makes all that much difference, especially in light of Berurah's son's ultimate success? It seems to me Berurah & her S did everything just about right, and the stresses they experienced were inevitable--built into teh process from the get-go--</p>

<p>From our experience (SCEA rejection from Stanford, 4 out of 4 acceptances RD from Cornell, Georgetown, Northwestern & U VA), I think my S's GC, school "culture," and intrinsic maturity (which beat mine, hands-down) proved that kids who go into college selection fully emotionally aware of the "lottery" nature of the selective schools' acceptance possibilities are well-served. So much is beyond their control. My S was fully aware, from Day One, that he would be happy at whichever school offered him admission--his safety was U VA, and right now he's torn between it and Cornell as his final choice. He was also aware he'd be upset and unhappy at rejections, but would likely get one or more--</p>

<p>Bottom line: To the extent we as parents can keep our kids on an even emotional keel, finding that "perfect balance" between encouragement and realism, our kids will do better with this very high-stress process. It's a lesson my S taught me. Reaching for the stars (selective schools) is a good thing...but not at the price of it defining the kid's self-evaluation/self confidence. </p>

<p>So, I'd say and I'd bet Berurah would agree w/me, the first and best step would be to find a "safety" that will make the kid happy...and then "play the lottery" for other choices after that...</p>

<p>I'd also say we parents would be VERY well-served to put more trust in our kids and their viewpoints...at least in the case of my S and his friends who shared their application experiences w/me, they were far more "together" about their prospects and expectations than us adults--who looked at the kids' resumes and application packages and couldn't believe any school would say "no" to them! At least at my house, the biggest "problem" was me...not my S!!!</p>

<p>Another last thought: the process of deciding among acceptances has turned out to be so much more stressful than we would have anticipated...it argues in favor of reducing lists, I think...I don't know what the right balance is--and now I will never know, as S is my only child and my journey thru the college app process is now approaching being over...but I'm shocked at how difficult it is to say "no" to the 3 schools he will not attend...it does make me wish we'd considered applying to fewer schools (altho again I'm quite sure my S would disagree w/me!)...</p>

<p>Anyway...just some thoughts for a Sunday morning...by the way: do we have any update on Andi's child? I'm so hoping the waitlst unlocks for them...</p>

<p><he only="" applied="" to="" one="" school="" with="" rolling="" admissions,="" the="" university="" of="" michigan.="" unfortunately,="" i="" was="" fairly="" ignorant="" regarding="" workings="" so="" didn't="" realize="" enormous="" benefit="" (particularly="" psychologically)="" in="" getting="" that="" app.="" early.="" my="" son="" did="" not="" turn="" his="" mich.="" app="" until="" jan.="" 10.="" will="" always="" wonder="" if="" an="" earlier="" submission="" application="" might="" have="" resulted="" a="" better="" financial="" aid="" package="" and="" maybe="" even="" some="" merit="" money.="" as="" it="" was,="" he="" received="" tiny="" loan="" from="" them,="" though="" hear="" back="" about="" acceptance="" 5="" weeks.=""></he></p>

<p>We were like you. We considered UMich kind of a safety but my S did not apply until Dec 10. The biggest scholarship that they offer only considers kids who have been accepted by I think Jan 15. My S got in just after that. Our mistake was not applying early enough AND not showing enough interest (visits, interviews) in our safeties.</p>

<p>Interesting! I didn't know the college factored in 'showing interest in the school' (via visits, etc.) in their assessment of the student for admission!</p>

<p>One of the more valuable lessons to be taken away from Berurah's post is the importance of the emotional toll of EA/ED rejection. Not only does it affect the students ability to concentrate on the RD applications but it colors their perception of their chances for the rest of the process. Applying early to a safety and getting admitted can be very beneficial.</p>

<p>Berurah, I think your post should be a must read for any parent in your situation - a high achieving child living in an area where few students apply to elite colleges. There is solid advice for everyone, but a real wake-up call and a plan for those who don't have many sources of info.</p>

<p>Don't beat yourself up too much. You cannot take the emotion out of the process. Even if a mature student read your plan and followed it, there would be times of angst and high drama - if not the severe reaction to a rejection you guys felt, then something else. I discovered CC early in the process and DD went into the apps with a clear vision of what she was going to do, we still both had plenty of tears, slammed doors and times when felt as if she wouldn't get in anywhere - it is natural.</p>

<p>Your post should be archived for reference - "How to DO Adnissions in 5 Paragraphs"</p>

<p>Berurah,</p>

<p>First of all, congrats to you and your son for overcoming his initial setback and achieving success in this process.</p>

<p>I came in late to your story, only having joined this board last month, so forgive me if this was already covered. Right now, my D is considering applying early to a particular Ivy (not HYP). It seems like it would be most important to do psychological preparation, i.e. do your best on the app, but don't count on getting in. If you do, great, if not, move forward. Do you feel this approach would have helped with your son, or, in retrospect, would it have been better not to have done ED to a top school at all?</p>

<p>I wish I knew about CC earlier, as I got into it after the process was basically over. I didn't know about the crap shoot of getting into an elite college. I knew that when I went to school (many years ago) my DD would have been accepted hands down. So we were unprepared for the rejection. This truly affected the rest of the process and my DD's emotional state. I now wish she had waited for RD. Although we are still disappointed with the EA decision, I believe she will thrive where she will go. Our GC was no help-new school, little experience in dealing with elite schools. Their focus is getting the kids into the state schools. And she was an experienced counselor, having transferred from another school. If I had known what I have learned here, I would have educated her. berurah, I am thrilled that your son got into his original dream school. He deserves it. What a terrific young man. And you are truly a great mom! Don't kick yourself over this. God has His plan...</p>

<p>
[quote]
It seems like it would be most important to do psychological preparation, i.e. do your best on the app, but don't count on getting in. If you do, great, if not, move forward. Do you feel this approach would have helped with your son, or, in retrospect, would it have been better not to have done ED to a top school at all?

[/quote]

audiophile~
I feel that better psychological preparation would have helped immensely with my son. Knowing him the way I do, I feel that if we had BOTH gone into the EA app. round with a different type of expectation, he would have survived it much more psychologically intact. Since the EA app. is the first one, and since my son who applied was my oldest, this was our VERY first college app. experience. </p>

<p>I think that we both:
1.) Didn't understand the basic purpose of the EA round at Yale.</p>

<p>2.) Thought that Yale would respond to some VERY special things in his app. much as Duke, JHU, and Penn did (my son had an EXTREMELY unique letter of rec. that we thought would be very compelling to Yale, but obviously it wasn't).</p>

<p>3.) Thought that our geographical location would be more compelling, as we are in a significantly underrepresented area.</p>

<p>He spent a GREAT deal of time on this app., but more significantly, WAY TOO MUCH emotional energy on it. If we had it to do over and he still wanted to put this bid in, I would support him, BUT I would help him to approach it as I mentioned above. DO YOUR BEST, SEND IT IN, and then FORGET ALL ABOUT IT and EXPECT A REJECTION. Treat anything other than that as a most precious gift.</p>

<p>I believe that MY son would have been able to handle that approach, but if I knew that my child would NOT be able to dissasociate from the whole EA process in that way, I would, without a doubt, have discouraged that application, at least to a school with the selectivity rating of HYPS.</p>

<p>I wish your daughter all the best as she (and you) enter this process in earnest. It can be grueling, but rewarding. Learn from our mistakes, and come to us for support....we are behind you all the way!</p>

<p>~berurah</p>

<p>
[quote]
...by the way: do we have any update on Andi's child? I'm so hoping the waitlst unlocks for them...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>hi overanxiousmom I'm still here. I haven't posted much because I haven't had much to share except whining :) and I don't think anyone wants to hear much of that! We won't know anything about s's wait list status for another couple of weeks. Some days we're fine and can accept the outcome and understand that it was a combination of the 'system' and our own 'misguided judgement' and on other days we're basically overcome with sadness about the schools he would so loved to have attended. Our spring vacation, which is just ending, was especially painful because many of his friends were off for accepted students visiting days and also, the free time gave s a chance to reflect upon what had happened. It's been a real test of character for him to continue to work hard at school and his music activities and not feel totally disheartened.<br>
We've followed to the letter the advice of interesteddad as far as rigorously pursuing the wait list school that s would so love to go to, and have pursued to a somewhat lesser extent, the others. If he doesn't get in then he's going to pursue some additional courses and do some volunteer work-- we're looking into those options too.
I only wish I had started reading this board a year ago.
Aside from the practical advice I've gotten from people like interesteddad, I've gotten so much emotional support from others who have sent me pm's and posted here. It's REALLY helped me to get through this. So thank you all!!!!!!!!!! If he gets into the school he loves I'm going to figure out how to post the announcement with the biggest brightest type ever seen on CC!</p>

<p>Berurah,</p>

<p>Thanks for your response, and again, congrats and much future success & happiness to your son. If I hadn't started reading these boards, I would have thought my daughter was a shoe in at this school. I'm glad I now know better so I can keep her (and my!) expectaions in line.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Thanks for your response, and again, congrats and much future success & happiness to your son. If I hadn't started reading these boards, I would have thought my daughter was a shoe in at this school. I'm glad I now know better so I can keep her (and my!) expectaions in line.

[/quote]

audiophile~
Thanks so much for the congrats and good wishes! They are very appreciated!</p>

<p>I do think that if both your D and you can keep those expectations in check, she would do fine submitting an EA or ED app, but that is easier said than done when you become fully engaged in this exciting process! :)</p>

<p>Again, BEST OF LUCK to your D for the coming year!!</p>

<p>~b.</p>

<p>jolynne smith~</p>

<p>Others can probably address this subject better than I, but some schools are more responsive than others to interest shown. I know that WashU is one of them. Those who visit and make a clear preference known stand a much better chance of being admitted. My son was waitlisted there, and we did not visit.</p>

<p>~b.</p>

<p>overanxious mother~</p>

<p>I didn't see this post so much as second guessing as I did attempting to do a useful postmortem for others who come after. While it's true that everything ended up very well for my son, I am of the mind that it could just as easily have come out very, very differently. That is why I think the analysis of the whole process was useful. </p>

<p>In the end, I have no regrets that I cannot live with...but that is ONLY because things turned out the way they did. If they had not (which was a real possibility), I would have had some very serious regrets. For example, one of them would have been not getting the UMich app. in earlier for serious merit money consideration. My son truly loves UMich, but as it stands now, it would cost us significantly more than Duke, so we would not have been able to consider it under those circumstances. </p>

<p>Whereas I felt that both my son and I cognitively understood the odds against elite admissions acceptances, we both became a bit caught up in the whole thing with the early Yale app. In a sense, we let our emotional guard down, and it was a very costly mistake (emotionally).</p>

<p>I think you can <em>understand</em> something on an intellectual level but still not fully embrace it on an emotional level, KWIM??</p>

<p>I do completely agree with your following statement! I do not think that my son properly did this, but as the process wore on, he began to understand this more fully, and from this, his excitement at the prospect of UMiami was born! :)</p>

<p>
[quote]
So, I'd say and I'd bet Berurah would agree w/me, the first and best step would be to find a "safety" that will make the kid happy...and then "play the lottery" for other choices after that...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I also agree with you about the difficulty in choosing between acceptances; however, I would not consider reducing a list for this reason alone. The choice between even just TWO wonderful schools would be difficult, and IMHO the risk you take by reducing the list when you are applying to crapshoot schools is too great.</p>

<p>I am so very happy that things turned out so beautifully for your son!!! I can't wait to find out which school will be THE ONE!! BTW, how is his ankle doing?????? Update please!!</p>

<p>love, ~berurah</p>

<p>audiophile my s also applied to Y EA and was deferred and then rejected. It's easy to convince your child that these schools are crap shoots but the actual process of filling out the application- all the soul searching for the essay and the laying out of one's accomplishments during high school- becomes an emotional investment. It's not hard to feel emotionally detached BEFORE filling out the application, but I don't think there are that many people who can become involved enough to create a well written application and then still feel detached.</p>

<p>kdos~

[quote]
We were like you. We considered UMich kind of a safety but my S did not apply until Dec 10. The biggest scholarship that they offer only considers kids who have been accepted by I think Jan 15. My S got in just after that. Our mistake was not applying early enough AND not showing enough interest (visits, interviews) in our safeties.

[/quote]

ACK! Just as I suspected! I'd like that one over, especially given his strong interest in Michigan....:) ~b.</p>

<p>
[quote]
One of the more valuable lessons to be taken away from Berurah's post is the importance of the emotional toll of EA/ED rejection.

[/quote]

marite~I would completely concur with this statement! Not sure I would have heeded it if I had not had the experience myself, but I hope others are smarter than I! :) ~b.</p>

<p>Andi, so glad to hear from you! I have thought about you often, but every time I start to post "What's happening?" I remember that nothing is happening yet, it is still too early. The best of luck to him.
I hope that you have the emotional strength to repost his story after you hear from the waitlist - good or bad. I think his story is going to have a happy ending, just like Beururah's son, it may just take a little longer. Still, there are lessons for the juniors in what happened to him, even if there is no understanding why or how? You are a strong family with a wonderful son who has great things ahead.</p>