Socioeconomic class and college success

[OHMomof2]

<p>

the funds earmarked in special foundations or endowed scholarships designated by the donors for merit students regardless of need, these monies do not impact the funds available for need-based aid.

</p>

<p>That’s not the case with all merit aid though.</p>

[cobrat]

<p>

Undergrad? No. They have no obligation to benefit the school or country when they are finished.</p>

<p>Graduate? Yes. If they do the usual TA/RA work. This happens a lot at research universities now.

</p>

<p>I’m in complete agreement with the above. </p>

<p>As for graduate, I’d add that one of the reasons why US universities became the best in many fields, especially from the '30s onward was because of an influx of the best and brightest grad students who did TA/RA work and Professors from all over the world. </p>

<p>Ironically, in the same corresponding period, European universities…especially those in central Europe declined as a result of a massive brain drain to the US. </p>

<p>A sizable portion of of US nobel prize winners in many fields were immigrants/refugees.</p>

[jym626]

<p>There are some special scholarships for merit students with need, but there ae also those for merit students without need</p>

[Periwinkle]

<p>

One is that it has a tendency to reduce the pool of money colleges provide to need-based FA/scholarships as has been reported in the Chronicle and was the case at my own LAC. </p>

<p>Second, my feeling that it’s immoral for those who have the means to fully pay for a college education to be subsidized by the college…especially if their funds are so lacking they cannot provide sufficient need-based FA/scholarships for all admitted students from lower SES is derived more from a form of the quaint notion of noblisse oblige.

</p>

<p>The “affluent” may not feel that they have the means to fully pay for a college education. They may have savings because they live below their means and don’t jump to pay full price for anything.</p>

<p>Setting aside merit scholarships governed by donors’ stipulations, many merit scholarships are discounts on the cost of attendance. Thus, doing away with such merit scholarships won’t increase the funds available for need-based scholarships. Or, it would only increase the available funds if the college were able to fill all the open places with full-pay students. Yet if could could do that, they would have no need to discount tuition.</p>

<p>

The NACUBO study was not the first to report enrollment declines for 2011. A Moody’s report from earlier this year found that 41 percent of private institutions reported a loss in total full-time-equivalent enrollment between fall 2010 and fall 2011. A survey by Sallie Mae found that, on average, families spent 9 percent less on higher education in 2010 than they did the previous year. Higher education finance officials said this could be an indication that the recession drove families to shop around more than they did in the past. More students from high-income backgrounds are looking for less expensive options, and private colleges have to compete with that.</p>

<p>In anonymous replies included in the report, many business officers noted ways they were trying to lower their discount rates, such as recruiting more full-pay students. “We emphasized/recruited lower need families from out of state and reduced institutional aid to lower academic ability students,” one respondent wrote. “We reduced our incoming student discount rate by 1 percent.”

</p>

<p>[NACUBO study of discount rates finds another increase and a drop in enrollment | Inside Higher Ed](<a href=“http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/04/05/nacubo-study-discount-rates-finds-another-increase-and-drop-enrollment#ixzz2GZuKFCV4”>http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/04/05/nacubo-study-discount-rates-finds-another-increase-and-drop-enrollment#ixzz2GZuKFCV4&lt;/a&gt;
Inside Higher Ed)</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>I agree with BCEagle. I think US colleges “owe” FA to US citizens first, and I do find it a bit offputting when I see internationals expecting full FA.</p>

[Proudpatriot]

<p>In support of the theory that full pays are subsidizing other students:</p>

<p>“The survey found that only about 10 percent of institutional grant aid is funded from endowment returns, meaning most institutions do not have a dedicated revenue source for funding aid.”</p>

[lookingforward]

<p>PP- oh, dear, on the other thread I also warned that some of the quotables can’t be taken out of their larger context- some of what you quote, I believe, relates to state funding-? They also repeat several times, that tution revenue doesn’t cover much more than 50% of the costs. And, the pickle cc’s are in, in particular, with respect to this issue. Maybe you can check- and I will, later.</p>

<p>Peri, I think the years post 2008 have to be watched carefully and not assume we’re seeing trends yet, but maybe a string of blips. Some of the schools that reported lowered apps, eg, are reporting current increases. We’ll want to see what’s up after 12/31. </p>

<p>I also agree on the intl issue- but we should take a look at how many internationals a given college actually takes. I don’t have a problem with merit aid, even for wealthy families- but again, we’d have to look at how much, how many and its proportion to need based aid, to get a real picture. (And, I’m afraid we’ll still be just observers with opinions.)</p>

<p>What I think is radically unfair (even, immoral,) is taking a lower SES kid and underfunding, leaving him or her to drift in the loan wind- whether that is a public or private. I think the commitment should clearly include a max to the brightest of them. (How exactly we id them is for another thread, I think- because imo and ime, it’s more than stats.)</p>

[cobrat]

<p>

They also repeat several times, that tution doesn’t cover much more than 50% of the costs. And, the pickle cc’s are in, in particular, with respect to this issue. Maybe you can check- and I will, later.

</p>

<p>That aspect has not only been due to skyrocketing costs and increasing enrollment, but in NY’s and probably many other states’ cases, a 3+ decade long trend in cutting the state/city’s share of the funding of such institutions for overall expenses and student FA/scholarships.</p>

[lookingforward]

<p>Cobrat, will you/can you explain what is funding many of those kids from China and SE Asia, who attend US schools? Other than family wealth, are there govt programs? Thailand has something-</p>

[Proudpatriot]

<p>I took the quote from the NACUBO paper.</p>

[cobrat]

<p>

Cobrat, will you/can you explain what is funding many of those kids from China and SE Asia, who attend US schools? Other than family wealth, are there govt programs?

</p>

<p>Nearly every Mainland Chinese/ROC national I’ve met who attended undergrad from my time to the present were funded via family wealth. </p>

<p>Only exceptions were a few college classmates who received college scholarships because they had noteworthy academic stats/musical talent above the greater admissions standards colleges held internationals to and demonstrated need and some students at Columbia SEAS who received private scholarships* from the same family foundation which donated so much to SEAS for which the college is named after. </p>

<ul>
<li>Scholarship was for Chinese nationals to foster better relations and understanding while studying engineering/technical sciences between Chinese on Mainland, ROC, Hong Kong, and SE Asia as far as I understand it. Was offered completely outside of Columbia U’s domain.</li>
</ul>

[lake42ks]

<p>

I agree with BCEagle. I think US colleges “owe” FA to US citizens first, and I do find it a bit offputting when I see internationals expecting full FA.

</p>

<p>I also think we should charge internationals extra to attend US colleges because it’s the US people who make the colleges attractive. But, internationals may dislike my idea.</p>

<p>Similarly, we have so many natural wonders/national parks where if there is any fees, we should charge international extra. I do see $$ there in the future as foreign tourists increase.</p>

[Beliavsky]

<p>

@lookingforward

What I think is radically unfair (even, immoral,) is taking a lower SES kid and underfunding, leaving him or her to drift in the loan wind- whether that is a public or private. I think the commitment should clearly include a max to the brightest of them. (How exactly we id them is for another thread, I think- because imo and ime, it’s more than stats.)

</p>

<p>As long as the college is clear about how much the student will need to come up with, I am reluctant to label accepting him without meeting full need is “immoral”. Is it better to reject him and take away an option? It’s not clear where to draw the line that signifies too much debt. A debt of $100K may be manageable for a petroleum engineer but not an English major. If a college admits a student whose family earns $300K and is thus ineligible for need-based aid, it may be that the student is getting little help from the family and taking loans. That’s not the school’s fault either.</p>

<p>Colleges that grant merit aid conditional on maintaining a 3.0 GPA should report the fraction of scholarship recipients in the past who have kept their scholarships. On CC several students have reported losing merit aid.</p>

[cobrat]

<p>

I also think we should charge internationals extra to attend US colleges because it’s the US people who make the colleges attractive. But, internationals may dislike my idea.

</p>

<p>Actually, international students are charged extra fees on the basis of their status at most colleges I know of. Thus, they are already paying more in most cases.</p>

<p>

Colleges that grant merit aid conditional on maintaining a 3.0 GPA should report the fraction of scholarship recipients in the past who have kept their scholarships.

</p>

<p>With the possible exception of engineering due to their greater required courseload and difficulty, a 3.0 GPA requirement is pretty low baseline for scholarships. </p>

<p>Most scholarships I’ve seen required a minimum of a 3.25 or sometimes even a 3.5 to maintain it.</p>

[oldfort]

<p>How are international students charged extra fees at US schools? D1 studied abroad in Sydney, she was charged 50% more than local students, which was still lower than her US tuition.</p>

[cobrat]

<p>

How are international students charged extra fees at US schools? D1 studied abroad in Sydney, she was charged 50% more than local students, which was still lower than her US tuition.

</p>

<p>International students at most US colleges I know of are charged extra fees on top of the full tuition because of their status according to my intl college classmates and those of HS friends at several elite colleges. </p>

<p>This was verified by folks who have experience working with international students attending US colleges or were such students themselves.</p>

[oldfort]

<p>Like what? They pay for tuition, room & board, student fees. What else? Yes, maybe passport, visa or travel, but those are personal expenses. They don’t pay more for tuition.</p>

[cobrat]

<p>

Like what? They tuition, room & board, student fees. What else? Yes, maybe passport, visa or travel, but those are personal expenses. They don’t pay more for tuition.

</p>

<p>Only specific I know of was one to check and verify an international student had full funds or some scholarship to pay the semester’s tuition beforehand.</p>

[oldfort]

<p>But they are not paying more than US students. As far as verification of funds, it is US immigration’s requirement.</p>

[argbargy]

<p>I found this stipulation by Cornell Weill Medical college to be “extreme”</p>

<p>*
Cost: Financial aid is offered only to those applicants who are US citizens or permanent residents of the US. Persons who are not US citizens or permanent residents must either pay for four years of tuition in advance, or deposit this sum in an escrow account (approximately US$188,600 in 2012). Canadian citizens are exempted from this requirement.
*
[Medical</a> Education at Weill Medical College of Cornell University | About Us](<a href=“http://www.med.cornell.edu/education/admissions/app_faq.html#residency]Medical”>http://www.med.cornell.edu/education/admissions/app_faq.html#residency)</p>