This will be my first post and I hope I can be a regular on this great forum. I am in my mid thirties and I do have twin boys who are 4th graders. Me and my wife are from Europe and we live in the USA for the past 13 years. Neither me nor my wife attended college in USA. We are both engineers and we work at a Fortune 100 company here in New Jersey.
Today, we found out one of our friend’s daughter wasn’t admitted to any of her target schools. She applied to Columbia, Brown and Princeton along with some mid tier schools and she was admitted to NYU with no Merit Scholarship. Her parents were pretty upset when we spoke over the phone.
Me and my wife never really thought about college admissions for our kids as they are only 4th graders but today, after seeing the disappointment in our friend’s eyes, I really got worried. Searched google a lit bit and here I am.
First off, I know it is still very early for us to even think about college. But unfortunately, college admission is not a sprint it is a journey. Not only grades or test scores impact the end result. As young parents of two little kids, what are some advice you could give us before we embark on this journey?
My main questions are below and I would like to thank in advance for all the replies.
Our kids are in public school now and we are trying to decide if we should start investigating private schools in New Jersey for middle school. We have some savings and we are financially OK to support private education in Middle School and High School. Which do you think is better for the kids academically and socially? We don’t want to raise robots focused only on college admissions. We want our kids to have a nice journey until college both academically and socially.
Both me and my wife are competitive people. Both of us finished the Top College back in our country. But in our country, college admission was thru a SAT type centralized exam and only test scores and GPA was being considered. Extracurricular Activities, Essays were non existent. So we are really novice. We trust our kids will do OK in terms of GPA and SAT/ACT but how can we help them find what they like in life and pave the way for them so they can pursue the right activities?
Like I mentioned in #2, both of us are competitive and we don’t want to create pressure on our kids for success. How did you guys balance this with your kids? We don’t want to push them and nag them but we also don’t want to be totally hands off. What are some suggestions to us at this point?
Thanks again for all answers and I will try to any questions you might have for us at this point.
Don’t let their mental health get caught up in college hysteria. Understand that there are many, MANY exceptionally bright children out there, all living in nice suburbs like yours with “excellent public schools”, highly educated parents with brains and cash to throw at enriching them. Make them read, a lot, no video game addiction. Make them help around the house before you send them to rebuild an African village. Give them your time and attention, let them talk to you about what they are interested in, and provide age-appropriate reality checks. Let them breathe and develop a sense of self that can withstand the gale force winds of hypercompetitive, narcissistic affluent society. They’ll build their own sense of self which will transcend any college hyperventilation.
I would consider private (independent or Catholic) schools especially for middle school. Middle school is the place where study habits are learned, kids fall in with the wrong crowd, and kids are sorted in the public system into tracks. In high school many public schools have excellent AP tracks. You will always get better feedback and service from private schools, but by high school public schools usually have better facilities (labs, sports, etc.) One child went to early college, another stayed in an independent school through HS.
We pulled our kids from public schools when our oldest was in 4th grade because of a bad teacher and unsupportive administration. For us it was expensive but worth peace in the family to have happy children. It also instilled a thirst for excellence which I think was lacking in public schools. Depending on your job, it would also free you from choosing a home based on school system quality. New Jersey property taxes are insane.
One great tip we received was to enroll your kids in the Duke or Northwestern gifted program to take the ACT or SAT early. That reduced subsequent test anxiety for one child who took the ACT in 7th grade. Also, make sure your kids are completely fluent in your native language (reading and writing) , this will help them immeasurably and even fulfill some college language requirements.
By the time your kids are in HS you can revisit expectations and discuss colleges and what they need to do. That is better discussed early so they can get good grades and develop good habits and EC’s.
I live in NJ. Many of our public schools are very strong academically, have great facilities and resources, and offer far more opportunities of every kind than private schools. So don’t assume that a private school will always be better. It may or may not be–it really depends on the particular schools in question. In my opinion, one advantage of a private school is that it is easier for kids to be stars and leaders in their academics and extra-curricular activities because there are fewer kids to compete with. At the same time, though, private school teams and musical ensembles are often of a lesser quality than those in big public schools, so being a big fish in a small pond may not actually be as great as it looks on paper. You need to carefully research the options available to you.
Secondly, let your kids explore a lot of things now while they are young–things that make sense to you given what their skills and interests are, combined with what’s available and affordable where you live. Then see what they enjoy doing and are good at. In the middle school years, gradually pare down their involvements so that by high school they can focus on a few endeavors to do in depth and to do well. Colleges will usually be more impressed by kids who have achieved at a high level in a few things, than those who have dabbled in many.
Third, find out now how and when students in your school district are tracked for math and other subjects. Make sure your kids get placed in the highest level classes they can handle in middle school (or whenever there start to be different academic groupings). You may need to insist on the proper placement, and you may need to tutor them to be sure they get tracked in the top group if you live in a district where lots of kids go to Kumon and other outside educational facilities.
Both my kids attend/attended selective and academically rigorous privates in MA. You can pay as much for a private as you do for a college. I suggest your best bet is to move (unless you already live there) to the town with the best school system. Put the money you are not paying for private in an account for their college education. Selective privates can be incredible for the right kid, and yes I do believe they give a leg up with admissions to selective colleges, but I don’t think it is the only row to hoe. You know your kids, are they being challenged? If not, can you talk to the admins and have something changed?
I am a strong believer in public schools. I went to them before I went to Williams, I send my own child to them, and I have worked in them all through my professional life. First, with your interest in education, your children probably will excel wherever they go. Second, I don’t know New Jersey as well, but on Long Island many of the best teachers work in public schools. Based on my position of employment (I won’t go into detail to preserve anonymity/ confidentiality), I know that a number of teachers we turn down for jobs in public school or who are denied tenure by us end up teaching at the private schools, which pay less than we do. Unless you have a compelling need for private school-- your child is having a bad experience and the particular principal/ teachers aren’t willing to work to solve it, or your child has special learning needs or interests that would be better met at a very specific type of private school-- I highly recommend public school! And if you look at the percentages at each elite college, although there are a lot of private school kids, there are more kids who attended public schools. So Ivy admission does not require a private school background!
That said, I am sure many people have great experiences in private schools as well.
Now onto the more important issue:
Enjoy your children. Nurture their love of reading by reading aloud to them. Have rich conversations with them about books and the world. (“If you were this character, what would you do in this situation?”, “What do you think the author’s message is?”-- Be sure to do this as a real conversation, as though you were in a book club, not like you are quizzing them.)
Expose your kids to activities you think they will like and see what excites them. They need to discover their own interests and passions. For my son, tennis and social studies became his interests-- but he chose them. The social studies interest started from a map puzzle that interested him. He tried several sports and instruments and then really devoted himself to tennis starting at age 9.
Don’t worry about college now, except for starting to save money for it! It is too soon. Enjoy every moment of their childhood, which goes by way too quickly.
As far as your friend’s experience goes:
From reading this site, you must see how random admissions can be. Someone gets into Kenyon but not Harvard; the next poster gets into Harvard but not Kenyon. Many strong students are turned down by some or many of their schools.
Yes, an elite college is nice… but it won’t make or break your friend’s child’s future or your child’s future. Plenty of people go on to do amazing things in their careers after attending less elite colleges. Don’t convince yourselves or your child that your child’s worth depends on what an admissions committee thinks of them. Convince them that their passion and hard work will carry them far in life, regardless of any setbacks they may experience from time to time.
Pay attention to your kids. One/both/neither might turn out to be as competitive as you and your spouse. One/both/neither might end up with a very specific career goal that requires preparation that is available at only a few places or requires an apprenticeship program rather than a college degree. One/both/neither might want the big cheap public U because all of the pals are going there. One/both/neither may prove to be a lousy standardized test taker, and always score poorly on the SAT/ACT/whatever-the-test-is-by-then. In other words, you can’t tell yet with 4th graders. You will need to watch and see.
I’d second the advice to consider moving to a solid school district if you aren’t already living in one. I’d also second the advice that you slap some money into savings every month to put toward the eventual educational expenses. Lots of parents like 529s. But to be honest, if all you can save is a couple semesters worth of textbook costs, and the only place you can keep it is in a shoebox under your bed, that is fine too. Every penny counts.
Be smart about your family finances in general. Lay-offs and financial setbacks can come at any time. Have a solid emergency fund in case of lay-off, and decent savings available for those probable but unpredictable expenses like new tires, dental work, and new major appliances. Don’t only think about saving for the kids’ educations.
Pay attention to where the students from your local high schools end up studying, not just where they get admitted. Happykid graduated from a “Newsweek Top 100” public high school in the Washington, DC suburbs. Indeed, every year a good number of the graduates were admitted to Very Famous Universities, but every year the single largest group of graduates (Happykid included) headed straight to the local community college, and the next largest group headed to the in-state public Us. Not because there was anything wrong with these graduates, but rather because their parents didn’t see much sense in shelling out for places (very famous or not) that hadn’t offered aid packages that made them as cheap as the decent local options.
Be smarter about your kids’ options than your friends were about their child’s. Don’t think that there are only a few acceptable places for your kids to get their educations. New Jersey has several fine public universities. The public community colleges have articulation agreements with those universities. Your kids won’t be shut out of the opportunity to have solid college educations.
I want to add an answer to your third question. I guess I will answer in terms of my own child’s experience. You will need to make your own decisions as parents who know your kids, but this is what worked for us. We developed study habits in our son in elementary school by just cheerfully asking things like, “What do you want to do first-- do your homework or take a break for half an hour?” In early elementary school we sat near him while he worked and helped him return his books to his book bag, etc. By late elementary school he was pretty independent-- and I can hardly tell you what he did for daily homework in middle and high school, because he did it almost all on his own! We’d buy materials for large projects and look things over when he wanted an editor or quiz him in Spanish, all only if or when he asked. He grew up to be a straight-A student in AP classes. I believe that is because he always enjoyed school and loved learning. He had developed study habits and the desire to do well. We never, ever nagged or made doing well in school about pleasing us or about parental power. Doing schoolwork was just a quiet daily expectation–like brushing his teeth! And the work was inherently interesting (at least some of the time!).
One thing you can start doing now is learning about the realities of financing your children’s college education and plan for that. It won’t matter what school your son’s get into if they are not affordable to you. There are many threads at this time of year written by heartbroken seniors who realize the school they have been admitted to is unaffordable to their family.
It depends on the public, the private and the student. Sending children to a private school does not guarantee admission to select colleges. Some publics are better than some privates. Look into your school choices and find the best fit for your children and family. Don’t make their childhood a checklist for college. You don’t need a special school or a special program. It’s not one size fits all. In fact, it’s all about the individual. Sometimes I think that is the problem: everyone is trying to follow the same stats/resume building formula and nothing stands out.
I say let them explore their passions and if/as one emerges encourage them to explore it deeply instead of spreading themselves too thin trying to do/be everything (unless they want to do/be everything). Let them experience natural consequences to the extent possible (some great lessons there). Model what you would like to instill in them. In high school, encourage them to seek opportunities and take risks on their own, so both the accomplishments and lessons are theirs. Tell them to take the classes that both interest and challenge them, not just the most challenging classes for the sake of college admissions. Then help them come up with a list of schools that would be a good fit for them and encourage them to tell their story and what makes them unique/a good fit for each school.
Most of all be proud and supportive of your children regardless of their path. It may not, despite your best efforts, turn out as expected. But, it will probably all work out the way it should.
Why on earth would you become a regular poster on this forum when your children are in fourth grade? Read post #8, save for college, and let your children have a childhood.
Our family is half like yours in that my husband matriculated from a top European (ok, EE) university - an equivalent of MIT or CalTech, and I was lucky to attend an elite school in U.S. so I know a bit more about college admission and preparation process.
Our daughter went to private school initially because we were too clueless to understand that a preschool owned by a private elementary school would steer kids towards that elementary school via Big Buddy program, etc. In the end, I don’t regret it a bit. Classes were small, our daughter got lots of personal attention, and excellent study habits - I never did any homework with her, ever, she did it herself and got all A’s. And they also let her skip a grade, which our public school would probably not have allowed (this is not a thread on merits or downsides of skipping a grade, though, won’t hi-jack this thread). We pulled her out in 4th grade to attend our public school where she could bike to school without me having to drive her and yes, for the next two years she was mostly bored because the curriculum was too easy. The teachers were both good, though, they just had to follow the program. For middle school, we considered a couple “elite” private ones the area (each going through 12th grade). I know they offer stellar education, truly beyond what our public schools offer, but we just couldn’t justify spending 30K a year. Our friends (whose son went to the same private elementary school, but through year 5) decided on a 10K/year private German middle school. A couple months in, they started regretting it, but due to the way the contract was worded (or so they told us), their son finished 6th grade at that school. He learned no German, nor much of anything, but due to heavy grade inflation his parents didn’t quite catch it until he went to middle school (where my daughter goes). I think for this German school, the case was exactly like @TheGreyKing described, second-best teachers compared to those at the public school. Ironically, this boy missed out on an amazing Advanced English teacher in 6th grade (I credit her with getting my daughter to high-school level); he still attends regular English classes while he could easily be on the advanced track with my daughter if he went to public middle school right away.
In the end, you need to run your own cost/benefit analysis. For us, elite MS wasn’t worth it without elite HS, and the cost of both made no sense since it could mean affording elite college (which I am at least currently re-considering as a necessity at all. Friends of friends had their daughters attend the aforementioned private schools and while the education they got was stellar, I am not sure it was a wise investment. The younger chose to go to dental school (and I have no idea if there are elite dental schools or not, our friends described it as “regular dental school”. The older one decided to go to an in-state school (UCSD) to save on tuition and then to USC law school - a great path, but one that is probably attainable without 200K spent on middle + high school.
@OspreyCV22, I can’t agree with you. It’s never too early to research, especially about scholarships. For example, did you know there is a scholarship for a kid to go to private HS for 4 years? The caveat is that you need to apply in 7th grade, with your child already having taken SAT through talent search. My daughter is in 8th grade, so too late for us. I e-mailed an acquaintance whose daughter is in 7th, but they too chose grade 8 for CTY talent search, so weren’t eligible, either.
Depending on the high school scene your children end up in and how demanding it is, you may need to do more for your children than you’d like to, or think you should. You might have to be what another thread on here called “concierge” parents–parents who take care of the trivial chores in the student’s life so they can focus all their time and efforts on their school work and activities. Back in the old days in the US, I think it was much easier to be a top student and still have time left over to help clean the house or mow the lawn.
My children did not really have the time for many chores, or at least without sacrificing even more hours of sleep. This was especially true of my daughter, who was an elite athlete. She didn’t do much more during the school year than her schoolwork and sport, but that was plenty! At times her high school track meets would entail an early dismissal from school (missing class and having to make up that work), a drive to a location an hour or more away on a school night (there aren’t many indoor tracks around), 7 hours of meet time, and then the drive back home. At 10:30 PM or later she’d have to start her hours of AP homework. Was I really going to tell her to take out the garbage and change her sheets?
But I had acquaintances who felt their children should do more chores and sleep 9 hours a night and generally be comfortable and relaxed, and if that meant taking easier classes, then so be it. That sort of life was going to be impossible for my kids if they wanted to get into good colleges, which they themselves did. Note that they too wanted this. Obviously, we didn’t disagree. There are parents on this forum who claim their student was able to have a normal, carefree childhood and still be a top student with high level accomplishments. I have my doubts it’s possible for anyone these days in our competitive world, but I can tell you for sure it wasn’t do-able for my kids here in our NJ suburb. And when my daughter attended a competitive summer program with other excellent students from all over the state, the kids all shared stories of staying up late every night to get their schoolwork done. In other words, their lives were just like hers.
So you need to also consider now what sort of life you’d like to have as parents. Do you want to drive the kids all over creation to classes and activities and sporting events? Do you want to pack their lunches and do their laundry even then they’re old enough to do it themselves? Do you want to help them with their calculus or physics problems? You see, this decision about their future schooling will eventually have implications on how child-centered your own life will be. Some parents do not want their own lives to be affected, and trust me sometimes I envy the moms and dads who chose the other route of frequent evenings out with their friends, and weekend trips to the beach while there we were sitting out on the hard bleachers or driving the kid to Michael’s to buy supplies for another project the third time that week.
Actually, I think it makes sense to become acquainted with college admissions at this point if you grew up in a different country.
The U.S. system of college admissions is downright weird compared to the systems in other countries. We have seen parents on this board who didn’t grow up in the United States and find it hard to understand and accept the differences. This poster is trying to learn about the U.S. system, and I think that’s great.
He has also given us the chance to advise him to start thinking about the financial aspects of college now. That, too, is something that parents in many other countries don’t have to think about at this stage in raising their children.
Oh wow. I think it is actually fine to educate yourself about how the college system works here, but you win a prize for being on this forum and having the youngest kids I have seen so far.
I am going to be very cynical here, but the fact that you are already here, the fact that you mention your and your wife’s competitiveness, the fact that you are talking about private school for Middle and High School (why would you do that, unless you are viewing that as a means to give your kids an edge in the college admissions game in 8 years time!?), all tells me that you really want to know this: what can you do to get your kids into the best colleges at the age of 9. You said “how can we help them find what they like in life and pave the way for them so they can pursue the right activities.” The right activities mean, presumably, the ones that will get them into an Ivy school in 8 years time.
Please, just let your kids explore the things that interest them. NOT the things that YOU think are going to get them into the colleges YOU want them to go to in 8 years. By that time, the whole system might be dramatically different. The ONLY thing you should worry about right now is how you will fund what might well be $80,000 a year in tuition, x2, for four years.
Well, people who wait until junior or senior year of high school to start figuring out how college admissions works (or wait until their kids start high school to learn how the high school system works here) will generally be much too late to change course if they’re on the wrong one. Being in NJ, the OP needs to start asking questions very early. I commend him. My guess is that if his kids aren’t already in the top math group by third or fourth grade, they simply won’t be on the correct track to take the math and science AP’s in the high school unless they do summer advancement courses. That’s a real problem if they’re bright and capable students but simply miss out on the higher level math placement merely because the OP didn’t drill them enough on their math facts or something minor like that. Going to school all summer to play catch up to peers is more extreme in my opinion than starting out well to begin with during the school year And having to catch up via summer advancement early in high school will mean the kids can’t relax or pursue more interesting EC’s or jobs over their break.
Too many parents say, “It’s only elementary school! It’s only middle school Johnny doesn’t have to worry about grades and such until high school. That’s when it counts for college.” WRONG on so many levels! In fact, my kids’ middle school math courses AND grades are on their high school transcript, and what they did in late elementary and middle school determined their high school trajectory.
