Son now doesn't want to attend Harvard...what to do?

Parents Forum
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<p>The advice above seems sound, but as a parent whose two Ds wavered on Harvard, then took the plunge, I feel obliged to share our experience with you. Prefrosh weekend is but a weekend, and a very atypical one at that. Our experience is that most of the daunting stereotypes about Harvard aren’t accurate, and that the experience offers as much support and warmth as a student could hope for.</p>

<p>The stereotypes about Harvard abound - elitist, sink-or-swim, inaccessible faculty, lack of attention to undergrads (I’ve asked on CC what exactly this is supposed to mean . . . no one who’s been concerned about it has ever been able to describe for me what it might look like if they were to encounter it!). But having gone this route twice, I can tell you that the stereotypes just don’t pan out. We’ve been floored at the support, the generosity, the willingness to return e-mails and address special situations, and the incredibly supportive nature of the students towards one another. Snobbery and elitism seem to be rare; I’ve read opinions on CC that say because the admissions system has evolved into such a meritocracy, any atmosphere of entitlement has become a thing of the past. The Harvard students compete all right, but they mostly compete to out-do one another in the spectacularity of their extracurricular endeavors. My D1’s House Master in her residential college has lived with his wife in the attached apartment and eaten in the Commons with the students for 13 years, and he has a Nobel Prize. The advising for freshmen is four levels deep, all the way from senior faculty down to upperclass student Peer Advising Fellows. The undergraduate college is only 6,000 students and the opportunities and resources are too numerous to describe.</p>

<p>My D1 never considered Harvard, but being a singer, decided as an afterthought to e-mail choral directors at all the Ivies to see if they’d have any interest in meeting with her if she were to visit the campus. Four never replied, two sent one or two-line responses, and the departmental secretary at Yale responded “Our faculty do not meet with prospective students.” The faculty member from Harvard responded with several pages of glowing testimony about the campus, its students, and how he might be able to assist in the admissions process if she could audition for him. And that level of response to students has been the norm. </p>

<p>Harvard’s not for everyone. Yes, the dominant personality there is Type A, and since students are chosen because they’re dynamic, I think it’d be considered more condescending than nurturing there to engage in “hand-holding” students. But that environment is stretching my D2’s comfort zone, getting her more assertive in seeking out the opportunities she wants. You may want to encourage your son to visit the Harvard board and ask questions of some of the current students who are regulars there. Your son could well decide he’s not interested in it, but I’d hate to see someone with the opportunity to go there rule out Harvard on the basis of urban myths - my D1 nearly did.</p>

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<p>Well thanks so much for that all the excellent advice. I just got off the phone with UVA to get some information, make sure we didnt’ miss deadlines. In the meantime Stanford’s admission rep apparently spoke with his hs advisor yesterday to forward his latest grades,other odds and ends…so though I know its a slim chance, there is still a tiny chance.
I want to make clear as one poster suggested, that I DO NOT at all think its Harvard or nothing. I want him first and foremost to be happy, I know he is driven, intelligent and ambitious and know he will succeed no matter where he ends up. Also know nothing is carved in stone, and if he so choose in his second year to transfer out, he can do so.
I just know that when he got accpeted in H. he was in shock and thrilled beyond words and suddenly it was like his whole world opened up especially after dealing with being waitlisted at S. So…for a few months there, it was Harvard all the way, and it was pretty much a done deal. Then bam, suddenly we visit for a few days and he has had a complete change of heart…yes it shocked me and threw me for a loop. Because now we are scrambling. I know how hard he worked all though high school, how in 9th grade he set his heart and goals to “getting into an ivy league school”. That was his dream. He achieved it and got into 4 ivy leagues of the 5 he applied to. Now he is thinking of passing each up to attend an amazing state school. I just hope he knows what he is doing because fair or not, an ivy league grad does indeed command some attention and anyone who says otherwise is just not a realist. I just want him to find happiness and feel like he belongs and find a place for himself on whatever college campus will allow him to do that…</p>

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<p>he got into Harvard, Duke,Cornell and Princeton. He also got into UVA and UCLA and Harvey Mudd. Besides H. he felt Duke was too big and too rahrah for his taste (his words not mine), Cornell, he hated the locale and Princeton he won’t go to for personal reasons so of the ivies…Harvard was the blazing obvious choice besides Stanford, which was by far his first…he truly fell in love with the school. Unfortunately, he didn’t get in but got waitlised. He did visit UVA and we were both impressed, beautiful campus, great environment. UCLA is incredible too but far too big for his taste. So there you have it…</p>

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<p>I’m a Harvard grad. I believe in letting young people make their own decisions about colleges assuming that the costs are what the family can afford.</p>

<p>College is the first major decision that most young people make. It is a fairly risk free decision in that if they’ve made a mistake, they can transfer. It’s not as if they’ll completely ruin their lives by a wrong selection.</p>

<p>If your S is feeling that U Va is the best fit for him, let him go there with your blessing. U Va. is more like Stanford, which was his first choice, than Harvard is. </p>

<p>He can go on to lead just as much a happy, fulfilled, successful life by attending U Va as he could by attending Harvard. </p>

<p>I know an Ivy professor whose D turned down Harvard for a school that was near the bottom of the top 50. She had a wonderful experience and became a Rhodes Scholar.</p>

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<p>Hmmmmm. I don’t know what his “personal reasons” are, but Princeton is pretty much the East Coast equivalent of Stanford, except smaller. If Duke seems too big and rah-rah to him, how can UVa not seem too big and rah-rah? Given his interests and preferences, if he wants to think about what the strongest alternatives to Harvard would be, that would be Princeton and Cornell.</p>

<p>In any event, UVa is great, and if he wants to go there, it certainly won’t wreck his life.</p>

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<p>The last time I looked, more than 40% of those accepted to H turned it down. I know a number of kids who chose other schools over H. As far as I’m concerned choosing PY et al over H is really not a breath sucking event. Chelsea Clinton chose Stanford over east coast elites. I also know kids who chose special programs over H. </p>

<p>Let your son make his decision. It is not earthshaking for him to go to S over H, but as Toadstool said, since he is not yet in S that is irrelevant. What is the choice the he wants that he has over Harvard?</p>

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<p>Great post, Gadad!</p>

<p>I did not mean in any way to perpetuate the stereotypes about Harvard. I just know how seductive the name is (and with good reason) and how difficult it is to evaluate whether it is a good choice for our child. </p>

<p>One thing I will say about making decisions - these kids who are accepted at highly selective schools have been working very hard for a very long time. Right about now they are tired and probably a little overwhelmed. I know my DD was facing AP exams, tests & papers for classes while she was visiting and she was just exhausted. </p>

<p>Hang in there, Kaywarn203, and know that no matter what choice your son makes he will be thrive - he has already shown that is the kind of person he is!</p>

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<p>I was thinking the same thing, JHS. Without knowing the particular details, Princeton seems like an excellent compromise. UVa is huge, comparatively - not so sure OP’s son would be getting what he wants at UVa.</p>

<p>Undergrad enrollment:
UVa ~14,000
Princeton ~5,000</p>

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<p>You say that your son is very mature but I am wondering if he isn’t somehow taking the Stanford rejection particularly hard since he’s obviously very accomplished and may not have dealt with a lot of “failure” – I use that word lightly – in the past. I knew a kid who let his rejection from Yale totally sour him on the prestigious school that he ended up attending. I don’t mean to imply that a person would have to be crazy to turn down Harvard and the other Ivies he got into but could he benefit from talking to a therapist or counselor who might help him to sort out his feelings during this stressful time. I realize that time is running short.</p>

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<p>Where did you get this statistics? Harvard has consistently had a yield in the upper 70%s. Which means that over 20% turn it down.</p>

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<p>A very good friend of one of my kids went to H. (Actually I know other kids who went to equally prestigious schools and fell in the same situation). She hated it there. She is graduating and really did not feel she ever belonged there, and did not like much about the school. She took a semester abroad and loved everything about the experience, and also took some courses at a local school and found it preferable. However, she did not feel that it would be a wise thing to leave Harvard for any other choices that she had, given the prestige and reputation. She says it is the only reason she stayed there. I know specifically of another young man who felt that way about Yale. I know another who transferred out of H for NYU even though it took an additional 2 years to finish–he went for a BFA and had to really start over. </p>

<p>I think that part of the reason that these top schools have such a high 4-6 graduation rate is that even if some of the kids don’t like it there, they feel that it would be foolish to give up this plum. The parental and societal pressure is that much higher. Plus these kids tend to be highly disciplined and able to stick out tough situations, I would think. </p>

<p>No advice from here. These decisions are very difficult to make and only get harder in life. The good thing is that it is not a situation where ALL of the options are terrible, which is something that we all end up having face eventually, and have to pick the least damaging route.</p>

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<p>FWIW, the yield’s been 78-79% for as long as I’ve seen it.</p>

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<p>"Princeton is pretty much the East Coast equivalent of Stanford, except smaller. "</p>

<p>Having gone to grad school at Stanford and recruited at Princeton, I don’t agree. The campuses and student bodies have totally different feels and I believe are attractive to different types of students (once you take out of the mix the prestige whores). </p>

<p>I do see similarities between U Va. and Stanford and can see how a student who loves Stanford might also be attracted to U Va.</p>

<p>As for people who think that the student should see a counselor, etc. while making this decision, I don’t see the point of that. I’m sure that people wouldn’t be suggesting that if he were turning down U Va. for Harvard.</p>

<p>It’s not as if the student is talking about turning down Harvard to go to community college or to become a train-riding tramp.</p>

<p>Other than suggesting that he wait until May 1 to mail in his acceptance – something that I think is a good idea for all students just so they feel that they’ve used all of the available time to make their decision – let him make up his own mind. He has a plethora of marvelous options and can’t go wrong with any including if he turns down my alma mater, Harvard, a school where IMO too many bright, driven students decide to go there for the wrong reasons – prestige, family pressure – even though they’d be much happier and more fulfilled at a different type of school.</p>

<p>Harvard is a marvelous college, but it’s not the best place for everyone, including for every bright, talented, high intensity student. </p>

<p>Let your S follow his heart.</p>

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<p>If he was excited about Harvard to begin with but really wants Stanford, would he consider a year at Harvard with an eye to transfer to Stanford? Would there be an edge coming from Harvard rather than UVa?</p>

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<p>OP: My son also was not thrilled on his return from the admitted student program. We have yet to have the discussion but I can feel it coming. But I have to say, is this crammed visit really a good measure of what attending the school would be like. My older son attends Stanford and is very happy there. S2 was accepted there also, but actually has his eye on another school for “personal reasons”. To complicate things, Harvard’s financial aid is by far the best, especially in the later years when we will again only have one in college. I hope you child gets accepted at Stanford, it has been a wonderful place for S1. But keep in mind, there is no hand-holding there either. Frankyl I am not a fan of the advising at Stanford.</p>

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<p>Ok…I am going to say something about UVA as someone who lives among hundreds of UVA grads and is in Charlottesville often. First, I have never met a UVA grad that didn’t LOVE their four years, and I am talking about a variety of people, including doctors, lawyers and people in business. I give Charlottesville a ten on a ten scale socially and in terms of great students, happy mental health factor, geniality, and level of stress along with excellence…very balanced place. They have world class pre business, pre law, and many other pathways…and your later years…you can find yourself in smaller classes. That said…we are talking HUNDREDS Of students in intro classes, and making apts and getting in line to see professors. This in my opinion, leads to a dynamic where UVA is often more about your wonderful peers and less about your wonderful teachers. Extroverts will forge relationships with teachers there and if you ask, you will be supported in internships and placement that are crucial…but it is easy to glide through with less faculty contact.</p>

<p>I have a Duke senior…who has absolutely had a magnificent four years at Duke in the arts and sciences both-- including two great experiences abroad. He roommates have flown all over the USA and been admitted to the most wonderful med schools etc. Duke has a very international and global reach on a cozy campus. </p>

<p>Duke has an extremely successful first year experience on East Campus where freshman bond and basically…for the time you are on the freshman campus…it feels like a LAC…then you catch the shuttle over to the Gothic Wonderland. If you want to talk to me any further about Duke…you may PM for a phone or email contact. </p>

<p>I regret that Princeton has been eliminated because our friend’s daughter is having such a great time there as a freshman…and it is a great undergraduate experience, with a very cohesive community.</p>

<p>Perhaps all of our children after being so incredible in high school are also looking for good social lives…which UVA provides. Social/Emotional development is crucial in the next four years and your son is likely to be able to ace his GRE’s, his MCAT, his LSAT whatever…so if you want to allow him to “choose his own adventure” in a more nurturing pastoral (Albemarle County has magic dust in the air…it is gorgeous) place, he will still likely enter some great grad school and graduate at the top of his class at UV</p>

<p>Second. Sciences are lacking and certainly not stellar. Is he a scientist? I am sure he is wonderful enough as a student however to find mentors there thrilled to have him and he will end up being a TA in labs if he shows up…but I have pondered things online for both of our sons who were both Echols and instate at UVA and I have read documents there on their goals to improve funding the hard sciences… UVA is clearly near the bottom of your college lists in research dollars and in the very things that for a science student would lead to a free graduate education/fellowship in a hard science. Is he a UVA College Science Scholar? Is he assured of access to working in labs? I assume he has Echols…which would be greatly helpful in the issue at UVA of difficulty in getting in the classes you want most in timely manner. </p>

<p>I completely understand the lack of emotional connection to Harvard…felt that way myself when we toured it and I would trust his instincts. Many people tell me it is not a place for the years 18-23 for everyone…including professors at LACs with their obvious preferences for small classes.</p>

<p>I am concerned about what your son is giving up in hard sciences at his other choices. Duke is a very balanced social experience but just incredible in hard sciences…
let me know if I can talk to you any further on UVA or Duke…good luck…I know this is a big decision…he is talented enough to make any experience he chooses golden.</p>

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<p>I think it is time we all read or re-read “The Paradox of Choice”</p>

<p>NSM - thanks for a laugh aloud moment - I am going to save the phrase, “train-riding tramp” for when I am blowing a situation out of proportion!</p>

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<p>My D is only a junior, but is a recruitable athlete and thus is evaluating schools a little early in order to be prepared to choose from which 5 schools to accept offers for an official visit should they come calling. Right now, Harvard is at the top of her list, so I’ve been reading all the Harvard vs. _________ threads to get a sense of the place. Northstarmom and other grads: People seem to agree that Harvard is not for everyone, but in your experience, what type of person enjoys Harvard most? Who IS it for?</p>

<p>PS–Stanford is high on the list too, so I’m also following those threads. A question for those who know Stanford: some CCer’s have said that the Stanford “laid-back” feel is on the surface only, ie. that the students are every bit as Type A and driven as the Ivy students. Is this true?</p>

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<p>^ … I vote yes … I’d describe the students as stealth typs-A folks.</p>

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<p>GFG- I don’t think it’s that the Stanford kids are so laid back- it’s that the school itself doesn’t reek of the intensity of the H experience.</p>

<p>H is great for a highly motivated, self directed kid with an abundance of self confidence. It is fine for a kid with very well defined academic interests even if s/he somewhat quieter or less intense. I think it is not a great experience for a kid who is all over the map academically or is prone to a lot of self doubt. If you are a second semester sophomore and all your suite mates are busy applying for summer internships in Parliament or at The Hague or coming up with a business plan to offer free malaria drugs in the Sahara or working on a joint venture between a construction company and a juvenile detention center to teach carpentry to incarecerated teenagers… it can be very daunting to be wondering if you should go back to your job at DQ which you’ve had for the last three summers or maybe try to get an editing job on campus even though you don’t have any real editing experience but then again you’re a good writer.</p>

<p>H not for the tentative. A great place for a kid filled with spit and vinegar.</p>