My son loved the suburban atmosphere, loves the CA laid back vibe…spent the last three summers at UCLA in the research dept. and loved it. He got into UCLA as well but says it’s far too big. Having experienced CA. and living there, he fell in love with everything about it,
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he got into Harvard, Duke,Cornell and Princeton. He also got into UVA and UCLA and Harvey Mudd. Besides H. he felt Duke was too big and too rahrah for his taste
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Did he ever visit Harvey Mudd? Obviously the architecture is different from that of Ivies, but Mudd has everything you say your son loves, and undergrad-only translates to underclassmen getting to do real research. After my son visited, he wouldn’t really consider any other college. And after hearing (anecdotally) how well this year’s senior class fared in the job market and grad schools, and how the Mudd faculty had taken major steps to help ensure those outcomes, I concurred.</p>
<p>Liking Stanford though is an indication of why he might not like Harvard. I loathe Stanford. Well not loathe, but both time I visited - in my 20s and recently - I thought, I’m glad I don’t have to go here! It’s not the architecture - I love Caltech! :)</p>
<p>I knew a lot of different types at Harvard - we weren’t all type A back in the day - and I don’t think all students are now, though there may be more of them. One of my roommates became a Lutheran minister, another went to b-school and now works with non-profits, a third became a history professor. I became an architect. My Lutheran roommate and I found our niches at Harvard by joining tiny departments. My history major was just a 100% academic type. My b-school roommate was more of the overachiever. My husband’s roommates were mostly science and computer sorts - they are in academia or in software companies. My brothers both founded computer firms, but went through Harvard getting grades ranging from A’s to D’s. My Harvard sister-in-law was the unhappiest. She came from a public school in the south and felt woefully unprepared. She flunked out first semester, took time off came back and graduated. She majored in English and has had just about every kind of job you can imagine - librarian, journalist for a small time newspaper, teach (high school and nursery school) and most recently she’s became a New Urbanist developer. I don’t really feel like I knew too many of the really high powered people while I was there - though I met YoYo Ma and had lunch once with Peter Sellars (opera director not actor). I do think Blossom has it about right.</p>
<p>^ disagree as to the possible negative implications of that. An example: It took S1 more than a year to get the full story on the accomplishments of his wide circle of friends at Stanford. They don’t rest on high school laurels or tell everyone they meet their achievements. But I do agree that many are very “involved”. Meanwhile S1 is not the typical Type A, but is very happy there and has found many friends of all personality types, cultures and ethnicities. He is not a “joiner”, but will work hard at what he wants to do and his classes. Stanford is a wonderful place for athletes since they make sure to integrate them into the full student body and they certainly maintain close friendships with students not on their team.<br>
I do not know about Harvard’s culture and I am hesitant to believe the negatives some post on CC. There appear to be many Harvard bashers lurking on CC and when you investigate further you find that they have some hidden agenda (mostly they were rejected or their kid was or they attended a rival school). I hope to discern the facts in order to assist my son with his decision.</p>
<p>Curious, in no way did I mean my comments to be negative. I have no axe to grind vis a vis Harvard. It is a wonderful place for a certain type of kid. It is a solid choice for another type of kid. For some kids it’s not the right choice- like anything else in life.</p>
<p>In addition to the dozens upon dozens of H students, alums, and faculty that I know, my company recruits there. Undergrads and MBA’s, and I used to hire KSG students in a previous recruiting role. H can be a life-altering experience-- I’ve met many of those students. It can also be a sub-optimal fit, and I’ve occasionally felt sorry for kids that I met there who would have been so much happier in a more nurturing type of college.</p>
<p>I do not agree that their 4-6 year grad rates are so high because kids decide to grin and bear it. I think the institution goes out of its way to make sure students get what they’re there for (a solid education and a degree.) But if you have a “stop and smell the roses” type of kid-- and they’ve got the stats to get into H, there may be better environments for that kid.</p>
<p>There are also the urban legends of the legions of kids who turn down H for various CTCL type of schools. The yield stats suggest otherwise (but why believe data if you have an urban legend and it fits for your anti-Harvard agenda?) By the time you are done with the cross admits who pick YPM or Caltech/Stanford (East coast for the former, West coast for the latter) you have a very small handful who go elsewhere. </p>
<p>So yes, every HS has a kid who got into H but ended up at U New Hampshire because H doesn’t have a degree in physical therapy, or ended up taking the free ride at SUNY New Paltz, or wanted Drexels program in Sports management, but I am highly skeptical of these.</p>
<p>Turn down H for S? Yup, I get that.</p>
<p>Agree that Harvey Mudd may be a great choice for the OP’s kid and worth a second look.</p>
<p>Sorry Blossom- I was responding to the post about Stanford students being Stealth Type As and then there were many posts in between due to my slow writing. I had not even seen your post when I wrote</p>
<p>I can only echo the many parents who advise to listen to your son and advise him to listen to his gut. Last year, my son was fortunate to have many wonderful colleges from which to choose (including other ivies) and very prestigious scholarships at other schools. He was very confused until pre-frosh. After pre-frosh, he knew “in his gut” that Harvard was the place but he kept reviewing the cost of Harvard against these wonderful offers from other schools. Finally, he “went with his gut” and chose Harvard. It is absolutely the right place for him. </p>
<p>That said, one of his best friends has a different story. This friend had always wanted to go to Harvard, but after visiting other schools and attending pre-frosh, did not feel Harvard was the right place for him. His parents convinced him to attend despite these feelings. This friend has told my son that he should have “listened to his gut”. My son has recognized that his friend is unhappy and has recommended counseling. Additionally, my son says that it is so “obvious” that this boy would have been happier in another environment. What thrills my son about Harvard sends a very different message to his friend. It is not the right place for him and he knows it but says that his parents will not hear of a transfer. </p>
<p>Similarly, this past Winter Break, our house was filled with his high school friends who attend all types of colleges from all over the country. The only one who is desperately unhappy was convinced by her parents to attend the more “prestigious” college rather than the one her heart told her was right. Like your son, this school had previously been her dream school, but after visiting during accepted students weekend, her heart told her differently. Her parents attributed these feelings to the stress of the decision. She will be transferring next year.</p>
<p>Please listen to your son. And, more importantly, teach him to listen to these feelings. The only time I made a bad job decision, it was over the objections of my “inner voice”. I was convinced that these feelings were not valuable - that I as “afraid” or “stressed”. So, I took the job that objectively seemed the best - more prestige, more money, better location etc. I quit within the first three months. Everything I had “felt” but was convinced to override became unbearable in a full-time position. Fortunately, I was able to immediately transition to the other firm. That is not quite as easy with colleges.</p>
<p>I may have been too gib with the stealth type-A comment but your description of your son’s friends is exactly what I’m talking about … the kids are very accomplished and motivated … however when you meet them they likely won’t jump out and tell you and you likely wouldn’t guess either … personally I consider that a strong positive and have gone to two schools with lots of stealth type-A folks (including Stanford for grad school)</p>
<p>D gets along well with her peers, but feels like she hasn’t found her social niche in high school but would like to in college. She shies away from the kids whom she perceives spend their every waking moment studying or doing EC’s with the goal of getting into the best schools. She doesn’t feel comfortable with the ones who are trying to impress the world and/or take it over at age 16 (they don’t intimidate her, but they do annoy her). Her classmates in honors and AP courses tend to be like this. On the other hand, the majority of kids on her sports team are not enrolled in an academically challenging curriculum and so have all the time in the world to hang and can go out on a moment’s notice. She doesn’t and can’t, which makes socializing with them difficult. Also, she is frustrated by the lack of discipline and focus the majority of her teammates display with regard to her sport. They don’t train hard, and make choices which are antithetical to a top athletic performance. So she wants the seriousness and hardworking nature of a top school, but in some ways is more like the DQ kid in Blossom’s example than the real go-getters. She’s an in-between type of kid. Would she fit in at either H or S?</p>
<p>This worries me a little bit. It’s not that there aren’t good reasons to choose another school over Harvard. It’s that this student doesn’t seem to have articulated them. None of the reasoning reflects my understanding of these schools. Duke is too big and rah-rah, so he’ll choose UVA instead? It just doesn’t make sense. Harvard’s urban location is a negative and he prefers bucolic surroundings…yet he rejects Cornell on location grounds? To me, it looks like this student panicked at the reality of pre-frosh and is floundering. Did he attend other pre-frosh programs?</p>
<p>3togo- oh yes. I just was clarifying that your characterization should not be taken with negative implications. I agree they are very motivated.</p>
<p>I can certainly understanding a kid going to a pre-frosh weekend and deciding the school is not a fabulous (or the best) fit for them. But, I think it is odd that someone would apply to so many schools that they can then reject outright as unacceptable once accepted to them- especially great schools like Duke and Princeton and Cornell! Why did he apply? </p>
<p>I wonder, just a little bit, if he wants Stanford solely because it does not want him. </p>
<p>UVA- great. My nephew is having a whale of a time, just won a scholarship for senior year which pays everything. Turned down a bunch of schools for a great fit at lower cost. Why not?</p>
<p>To me, the solution is simple. This is the student’s choice. He’ll get an excellent education no matter where he enrolls. If he wants to cross H off the list that’s his perogative.</p>
<p>GFG- Brown, Columbia, Swarthmore, Wesleyan, Bryn Mawr, Northwestern, Dartmouth and Stanford all strike me as good choices for your D. Not saying H is a bad choice- but the go-getter factor is really hard to ignore.</p>
<p>As a colleague of mine likes to say after a day of interviewing H undergrads, “Can’t any of these kids ever join an existing organization? Must they ALL start their own non-profit, company, publishing house, or club?” He says it tongue in cheek but it’s usually close to the mark. Admittedly- we are interviewing for corporate jobs, so the poets and the dreamers aren’t in our pool of candidates to begin with. But having met my share of poets and dreamers at Harvard- even they are more focused and deliberate than their counterparts at other schools.</p>
<p>Hanna, I know you are trying to help, we all are - and your questions are completely logical. Years ago, I would have thought the same. But, that type of objective thought is what led me away from my “gut” and to the wrong firm - and I am a very objective logical thinker. But, as age and maturity has taught me, sometimes your heart/body recognize what your mind cannot process. </p>
<p>To the OP - UVA was one of those colleges that my son originally loved. There is a very special feeling about the UVA campus - especially the lawn. He met many alumni when going through the scholarship process (our state has a lengthy stepwise progression of panel interviews) Everyone he met in the process of applying for the scholarship was both impressive and nice. He was very concerned about their reaction when he notified them of his decision but they were all very generous in their response to his decision.</p>
<p>"I can certainly understanding a kid going to a pre-frosh weekend and deciding the school is not a fabulous (or the best) fit for them. But, I think it is odd that someone would apply to so many schools that they can then reject outright as unacceptable once accepted to them- especially great schools like Duke and Princeton and Cornell! Why did he apply? </p>
<p>From Sept. until April of their senior year, students learn a great deal about themselves including what they want in their college experience, and what kind of environments and peers make them happy and best help them to fulfill themselves.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, U Va. is a great school. I remember when I was a Harvard undergrad, I wondered why a classmate had chosen to go to “only” (my idea) U Va. for law school. Then, I visited U Va. a couple of years ago and was blown away by what it has to offer. </p>
<p>It’s a very different atmosphere than is Harvard, and I can imagine that a bright, talented, student who was turned off by Harvard could love U Va.</p>
<p>While I like U Va., it’s not a school that I would pick for myself because I love big cities and being surrounded by people bursting with intensity. I know, however, that there are many smart people who find the kind of atmosphere I love to be extremely grating, and who would be much happier at a place like U Va.</p>
<p>Do finances and timing make a second trip to H completely out of the question? Kids sometimes have different reactions upon seeing a school a second time. Although a back-to-back trip isn’t ideal, if you (and perhaps at some level even S) are reluctant to turn down H, a second visit might change his mind or, alternatively, confirm what he already feels. Just a thought.</p>
<p>I too think that this kid may want Stanford because S didn’t want him. </p>
<p>Years ago, a young man in my apartment building got into several top colleges. He was wait-listed at Dartmouth. Though he had gotten into 3 or 4 colleges which US News ranks higher than Dartmouth, suddenly D was the ONLY place he would be happy. He got in off the wait list and chose D. His mom said she knew full well that if D had come back as an acceptance immediately he would have chosen a different, higher ranked college. He enjoyed his time at D. </p>
<p>I suspect that something similar is going on with this young man. He went to the H weekend and thought to himself “I like S better.” However, the rational part of him knows full well he can’t plan on getting into S. But at some level, he’s unwilling to admit that this is all really about S not H.</p>
<p>Parent here of another kid who chose not to attend the “slam dunk” or “obvious” option. I’ve mentioned this on another thread, but he made a matrix of what characterisitcs he thought were important in whatever school he attended, weighted each trait, and then ranked each of his four finalist schools in those categories. While the “slam dunk” school won in some, the school he’s attending had a higher overall score and the decision felt absolutely right in his gut. That’s where he is – he loves it, has had some fabulous opportunities, and has no regrets.</p>
<p>Perhaps if your S made a list of what he likes about each of his final choices and compares them side by side, he find find some clarity about what his specific concerns are about Harvard. Your S has no bad decisions here. He has earned some terrific choices – now he has to figure out where he’ll be HAPPY.</p>
<p>And in another of my regular reminders…make sure your student LIKES every school on his/her list and could see attending it. :)</p>