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<p>True.</p>
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<p>Perhaps. But, gut feelings can be the best tie-breakers.</p>
<p>I think there is much work being done in Behavorial Economics to quantify “gut decisions” and much of the research suggests that “gut” is shorthand for “I lack the words to describe the phemenon” which doesn’t make the phenomenon any less real or compelling.</p>
<p>I agree that any discussion of Stanford needs to be put on the back burner. No sense getting distracted with an option that is not on the table. OP needs to help the son make a decision based on the available options and the easily obtainable information. Period.</p>
<p>^^^ “Many people tell me it is not a place for the years 18-23 for everyone…including professors at LACs with their obvious preferences for small classes.”</p>
<p>Honestly, I’m not trying to promote Harvard’s yield rate - in fact, if they don’t have 20% of accepted students turn them down, they’ll have a space crisis. But there are all the notions about the place that just don’t mesh with what my two kids have found.</p>
<p>Harvard College has 6600 students - just like Stanford. It’s less than half the size of U.Va.'s undergraduate school. My freshman D has had one huge class in which mass lectures alternated with breakout sessions headed by TAs. The other seven classes have all had under 20 students. Freshman seminars are capped at 12. Her Expository Writing class meets around a table that would fit in a typical dining room, and the professor e-mails her to make comments about points she brought up in class. My junior D had a class with one of the celebrity professors. She sat next to him at a concert, he called her by name, and they talked throughout the evening about things that had come up that week in class. A month or two ago I watched him when he was the featured guest on The Colbert Report.</p>
<p>Given a faculty-to-student ratio of 7:1, I don’t know why there would be an assumption of huge class sizes or ambivalence of faculty toward undergrads. In the contrary, my wife and I attended Wake Forest, which had 2900 undergrads, and we never experienced the attention of faculty relationships that our daughters have at Harvard. When you get world-renowned faculty together with the most talented student cohort imaginable, you would expect that it would be energizing and motivating for both - at least, those are the reports I’ve gotten from my spies over the past three years.</p>
<p>This young man has accomplished something only a very percent of students do. He is among the top ranked seniors in the country. He sounds decided…The OP states “he wants to deposit at UVA.” OP seems a little unwilling to let go of the “H-Bomb”. I completely understands the OPs more pragmatic insticnts, but this is a decision I would leave to him. I would definitely point out many of the helpful inputs and insights mentioned in this thread concerning all the options. Heck, I’d probably have him read them. Then let him decide. He’s a young man, and an extremely bright one - which won’t change. Respect his decision, and let him live with it. Down the road if he changes his mind, there will be options for him too. </p>
<p>I don’t know much about UVA, but I’d assume they have an Honors Program? if so, he’d be in his element :)</p>
<p>gadad, is what you say about class size at H true about the more popular majors? In a similar thread, one poster commented that most of his econ classes were very large.</p>
<p>Congrats to your son, I agree with how he feels about Harvard and that’s what I felt 30 years ago when I attended an admitted student’s event. UVA and Stanford do have a much different, more laid back and warmer feel IMO. Most kid’s would ignore their gut and march through the gates of Harvard square, your DS is truly mature.</p>
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By far, Harvard has the highest concentration of Type A people that I have ever been around. What a Harvard student would consider a nontype A person is what other people would definitely consider to be Type A.
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<p>yeah, i thought about this after i posted - maybe i am so type A that i have a biased perspective on this issue:-)</p>
<p>however…every year so many kids apply to harvard who get turned down, and they all end up going somewhere, which spreads the type-A-ness throughout the rest of the schools with lesser and lesser concentrations…like on a spectrum. the harvard culture probably inculcates more type-A-ness in people as they progress through school.</p>
<p>“.every year so many kids apply to harvard who get turned down, and they all end up going somewhere, which spreads the type-A-ness throughout the rest of the schools with lesser and lesser concentrations.”</p>
<p>I think that virtually all of the students at Harvard are Type A. However, from interviewing applicants, I think that a portion of the students who don’t get in aren’t true Type As – they are relatively passive students who did activities and got good grades because of having Type A parents breathing down their necks.</p>
<p>OP, are your concerns about wanting S to accept Harvard based on finances? Did your S make Jefferson Scholar? I was curious if there are students feeling pressured to attend H vs. other schools because for their families, the FA works out so much better. </p>
<p>I’ve got to say, had S been accepted, we all would have had to really think hard. H would have been substantially cheaper than our other options. S1 didn’t feel like it was a good fit, though – ironic, considering he said that his Harvard interview was by far the best one he had senior year.</p>
<p>OK…I’ll ask the “dumb question”. Why did this kid apply to Duke, Cornell, Princeton and UCLA if he did not like them enough to attend? </p>
<p>You know…UVA isn’t exactly a “tiny” school.</p>
<p>I would let him make the decision. Sounds like his choices are between UVA, Harvard and Harvey Mudd. All are great schools…but they are VERY different. He needs to make the decision. Just leave him alone but do set a deadline…like midnight tomorrow.</p>
<p>He already has a deadline that the colleges have set: Reply needs to be sent by May 1.</p>
<p>From what the OP has posted, to me it looks like he may have applied to colleges sight unseen. Now he’s seeing the reality firsthand.</p>
<p>I’m also doubting that when he applied he thought that much about what kind of atmosphere, etc. he would enjoy most. Except for the fact that all of the colleges are highly ranked, they don’t seem to have much in common. For instance, it’s hard for me to imagine that someone who’d be happy in the very urban warm and sunny UCLA environment would be happy at Cornell.</p>
<p>He may have been one of those students who figure they’ll figure out what they like after they get in.</p>
<p>Lots of discussion of Type As, but I wonder if all are using it in the same manner. If Type A is self-motivated, self-starter, goal-oriented - great. Or are people using it to describe overtly competitive students who enjoy one-upping each other in any activitiy from board games to the classroom? Who are the Type As at Harvard?<br>
I also wonder if students who were accompanied by parents had a better experience at the visitation program. My kid went solo and arrived sunday morning to a rather brisk registration “welcome”, no T-shirt and just a mere, “this is where your dorm is” on the map. Not a very good start</p>
<p>My best friend’s daughter, who is my son’s best friend, attends Harvard and loves it. She loves to win. Does she want to hurt anyone by winning? No. She is the most pleasant chipper person you will ever meet. She just loves to win. So if you are someone uncomfortable around a need to win, it’s tough. This is a fine distinction, with no value judgment implied. There’s room in the world of smart people for some who love to win and others not so much. And this is by no means a blanket statement. It is only my anecdotal understanding of the majority culture. BTW, Harvard drinks way less than Princeton. Just so you know I am not being a mindless basher or supporter of anything.</p>
<p>I’d characterize Harvard type as: high energy, highly verbal, self-motivated, self-starters, goal-oriented , intense, passionate about their various beliefs and interests, enjoy being involved deeply in a lot of activities, love competition and winning, including winning arguments, but won’t stab you in the back to win. </p>
<p>Some people would greatly enjoy hanging out with people like this. Others would view that as hellish.</p>
<p>throwing in my 2 cents worth late in the day…</p>
<p>I know many have said that continuing to include Stanford in the discussion is a waste of time, however, I think it has facilitated an interesting sideline leading to Harvey Mudd as a wonderful consideration. </p>
<p>These accepted student days are such an interesting phenomenon… one parent at BDD said they thought all of them were over the top… another parent said that Princeton’s was perfect, and that was exactly the problem their child had with it. It was almost Stepford Wife perfect to the student and as a result, it was no longer a contender. </p>
<p>I do know that I was deeply impressed with the Bulldog Days session we just went to last week. I was impressed with Yale, with the kids, with the professors who taught the master classes. However, I did not have enough time to do any of the other things I thought I would do while in New Haven. My son came back to my hotel to take a nap one afternoon, he was so tired from all the action. So, perhaps only let it occupy 20% of the overall grading criteria your son uses to make final selection…come up with a grid that includes all the reasons for any school choice…not just the final visit. He may have been toooooo tired to even begin to enjoy it. </p>
<p>I have visited Stanford and UVA with my kids… also Harvard… I offered to take a kid to visit UVA once he was accepted because his family was not able to… the family ended up taking him and he chose UVA…and LOVES it… and one of my summer sitters went there (also a legacy) and she loved it too… married a classmate, great alumni presence at their wedding…</p>
<p>My own son was not interested in Harvard back last fall when making final lists…he did admit after all was said and done that he was premature in discarding it as a consideration. He had a stereotype in his head about Harvard…and could not get beyond it. We were interested in it because it is 2 hrs closer…and we will be going to watch him in the pursuit of one of his passions. </p>
<p>I did lean on my son about his Yale options…over several other IVY’s…and Harvard has the same advantage, and then some. The resources at Harvard and at Yale do trump the resources at all the other schools. That is a valid reason to wait and think and think and wait… </p>
<p>What about the ole “pretend” you send in the deposit to UVA…how does that make him feel? One of the hardest aspects of being one of these kids who get into so many wonderful schools is actually saying No Thank You to them. It is a very hard moment, to close that door to that path. If your son feels relief over closing the Harvard door now, then it is a valid choice. If he has a tinge of angst, then perhaps the door needs to remain open. </p>
<p>To me, one of the biggest disadvantages to both UVA and Stanford is that such a large percentage of their class comes from the home state. If you are not from that state, then you are always in the minority…and the attraction to that school usually only grows as you make friends, so, one might end up settling in the area in order to see those friends over your life. Sounds extreme perhaps, but Harvard has more kids from more places…and the international component is also a factor. If you want to go to a global school, then, Harvard has that advantage also, in my opinion. </p>
<p>Financial aid? Second to none at Harvard. Has to be a consideration. </p>
<p>Final thought…my heart goes out to the parents here because for a few weeks now, they were building the internal vision of their kid in Cambridge, MA. I know I hated not knowing where my kid was going to be. There is just something about that unknown that I do not like…and to begin the projection and have it hit a wall is a tough thing… I think. But, not a fatal thing…and so if a new vision has to begin, it can and it will. </p>
<p>Sorry for the length of my post… I am moved by this thread and all the good wishes contained in it for the best outcome. CC parents are the BEST.</p>
<p>A professor who taught at both Harvard and Stanford was asked about the difference between students at the two schools. He said, Harvard students are more nakedly ambitious… Stanford ones just more naked 
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<p>But yes, the VIBE at Standford seems mellower because students study by the pool and wear shorts year-round. Come exam time, don’t be fooled: those laid back Californians show their teeth.</p>
<p>fwiw: Stanford is down to ~40% California residents…</p>
<p>"To me, one of the biggest disadvantages to both UVA and Stanford is that such a large percentage of their class comes from the home state. If you are not from that state, then you are always in the minority…and the attraction to that school usually only grows as you make friends, so, one might end up settling in the area in order to see those friends over your life. Sounds extreme perhaps, but Harvard has more kids from more places…and the international component is also a factor. If you want to go to a global school, then, Harvard has that advantage also, in my opinion. "</p>
<p>Of all of the assortment arguments “against” UVA, this one is the weakest.</p>
<p>Plenty of diverse kids at UVA. Last matriculated undergrad class was approx 3260. 31.5% are non-VA…so 1026 kids. Same year Harvard enrolled about 1650 total. 176 enrolled entering class at UVA were international, to 194 at H. Yes…the % are different…but…there are plenty of kids.</p>
<p>I agree with those who say Stanford shouldn’t be part of the equation…but…can’t help saying it is very easy to meet and become friendly with non-CA kids at Stanford. Know one kid from NY, who has kids in his sophomore moving group from CT, ID, TX, IL, NJ…only one from CA!</p>
<p>This is the lazy mom post…I skimmed the others and don’t know if it has been said…Maybe being a small fish in a big pond is what has him rethinking. Will he remain a standout at UVA, and be concidered average at Harvard?</p>
<p>Well I have to say I was stunned when I saw what a response this thread has received…oh my! Thanks to all…let me just say one thing if I may, then I have to put my carpool hat on and get kids to various things…my son ever since we went to his cousins graduation from Stanford (my s was in 9th grade) was there…he fell in love. We went back in his junior year, spent a few days and he was there the summer before as well as he was at UCLA for a research opportunity…he was in love. Since 9th grade he had his sights set on Stanford. He never really considered too seriously others, but Harvard was a close 2nd. The others he applied to becuase lets face it, this is not a sure thing or an exact science and he knew he needed “backup”. He did spend a little time at Cornell, and had a ball but didn’t like how desolate he felt (his feelings) Duke was amazing but big and he is not too much into the whole school spirit thing though they have a strong engineering program. He did fall in love, as most do with UVA. It is close to a city, has a totally picturesque campus which practically seduces you at first glance and the people, my gosh were the friendliest, most wholesome people we had met at any campus. He was awestruck, but still holding out for Stanford, he said it reminded him of an east coast Stanford. In the meantime we made a short visit to Harvard, it was a busy 2 days and he liked it but wasn’t so sure about the city and the attitude overall of the students/faculty TO HIM felt like a pressure cooker of brilliant but overdriven minds. These again are his words. So…when he got in and didn’t get into S. suddenly he realized I mean this is Harvard, a world renowed university, hardly a slouchy second. So at his advisors urging, he spent the weekend there for accepted students, and though he was leaning towards going…by the end he had a change of heart. It happens.
So I can say this, no the reason he wants Stanford so much is because it has all the qualities he is looking for in a school, including the sunny beautiful weather. Since it probably won’t pan out, he is looking for the next best thing and to him at this point UVA seems like the one. My husband has offered to fly with him this weekend to Harvey Mudd, it was a last minute add on, and he didn’t visit so now we may be going to take a look at that. Oh the stress of it all. I know it will work out though and I know if he is happy he will have great success.</p>