son working at school!

Parents Forum
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<p>Hi, Texas137:</p>

<p>My post was later,you post already answered my questions.</p>

<p>My son is trying to (needs exam ) get into a gifted and talented high school in our local area, where a very difficult program including a lof of higher level math classes are offerd. he actually got accepted into their middle school GT program too, due to transportation problem, we didn't let him go. This time he swares he will have to go even though that may mean one and half hours one way each day, sometime , he may have to take public buses, but he is determined to go no matter what.....he is longing for a more challgent enviroment as well as a place where he can finds peers sharing same drive and motivatins.......</p>

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<p>Hi, Texas137:</p>

<p>Congradulations to your son! Obviously, you did an excerllent job as a parent!MIT is also my son's dream school, hope he can make it one day. </p>

<p>Right now, I don't think I am capable to homeschool him, I can only hope he can at least doing some study at school, not working.</p>

<p>Thanks again.</p>

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<p>sounds like your magnet high school could work out wonderfully and be well worth whatever it takes to get him there. I certainly hope so! There are many kids at Thos Jefferson HS for Math & Science in Virginia (that's sort of the ultimate example of what you are talking about) who commute 3 hours a day in order to go there. </p>

<p>I will comment that we also have a magnet math/science high school in our city that is very highly regarded. We never considered it because it was simply "not enough". He would have maxed out their math offerings after 9th grade unless they bureaucratically held him back (which was very possible). Group settings are simply not able to challenge kids that fall far outside their norm. What was the contest your son did so well on? It sounds like he qualified for AIME. If he qualified for AIME in 8th grade, I can almost guarantee that he will max out even a very good magnet high school.</p>

<p>Homeschooling is not a feasable option for many people. But you may want to start looking at other options that would work within the school setting. EPGY and other distance learning programs, or college classes are possibilities.</p>

<p>Are you taking adavantage of the summers? There are some wonderful summer programs for kids like this. My son loved <a href="http://www.mathcamp.org%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.mathcamp.org&lt;/a>. Marite's son loved <a href="http://www.promys.org%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.promys.org&lt;/a>. Ross-Young and New Hampshire college also have well regarded programs.</p>

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<p>The test was a statewide high school math competition organized by state university. </p>

<p>His current middle school never bothered to sign up any nationwide competition, so we were not aware of Mathcount, AMC, AIME those kind of competition untill very recently, I was not deligent enough to check out summer programs for him too, I am feeling guilty now.</p>

<p>This year, after we finally got him a good computer and internet connection at home at his free use, he found out all those wonderful things, and he is trying to make into one of those camps this summer......, and hopefully winning some competition in the future. </p>

<p>He is also interested in sciences, computers etc, He taught himself BASICS, assembly, and learned C from through distant learning from JHU. So I guess maybe it's ok for him to run out of math classes, he can always chose many other subjects to learn right? I don't have much idea as to weather that high school will satisfy my son's hungery for knowledge or not, but it has a very high reputation for it's rigourous curriculums.......actually I am a little worried, since he is going to be with a group of kids who come from magnet middle school program, they are so much better trained then my son, but he said, he would rather to struglle then to get bored to death....</p>

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<p>It looks like the superintendent should be involved here again.</p>

<p>Do not ask for community service credit for the work your S has already performed. Focus instead on one thing: to let him be allowed to do math or other homework during his free time instead of doing "volunteer work" at the library. </p>

<p>In your letter, explain that because the high school starts earlier, your son is in class longer than his classmates. (This is something that everyone knows, but it should be written in black and white.) Because your son goes to the high school for math, he has some free time when his classmates go to their grade-level math class. You appreciate the willingness of the librarian to provide supervision during this free time. While your son is happy to provide occasional help in the library, you understand that it is not a requirement and that no other student has been asked to perform such work on a regular basis. You appreciate the school's willingness to accommodate his advanced math abilities and hope that the school will also accommodate the extra workload his high school math class generates. You hope that the school will allow your son to use the free time to do his homework instead of library-related chores.</p>

<p>Write to the principal, with cc to the librarian, to his homeroom teacher and to the superintendent and anyone else who has a say in how your son is dealt with. (Make a copy to each of these individuals and state on your letter that you are cc</p>

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<p>amother - here's a programming contest your son can do by himself over the internet with no school support at all. 8th grade is a perfect time to get involved. The problems are very mathematical. There is a lot of overlap btwn the top competitors here and the top math competitors. Fabulous training materials on the site, the possibility of a free summer training camp. And everything's free! My son has loved this program, too (he's in the picture). USA Computing Olympiad.
<a href="http://www.usaco.org%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.usaco.org&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>I'd written my post to address the library issue but was not able to post it for a while. I see that the discussion has moved to the issue of high school math. </p>

<p>It can be very hard to be commuting 1h30 each way every day. If that is the only option and your son is willing, then he should go with it. If the local high school can accommodate all his other educational needs except for math and maybe science, perhaps some other alternatives can be worked out. The high school principal is already aware of your son's talents, and I feel certain that he will be more flexible than the middle school. Indeed, it is easier to accommodate a student who is out of synch with his age mates in high school than it is in elementary and middle school.
If your son is already at Algebra II level, he should have no trouble mastering precalculus and going on to Calculus. I expect both are offered by the high school, but he may find the pace of teaching slow. My S covered precalculus in one semester while in 7th grade (he had a much more accommodating teacher who let him work out of a book on his own). Your child may be able to do something similar as long as a teacher is willing to meet with him regularly to assign problems and correct them. Alternatively, an outside tutor could be engaged to do this. One of my S's chums met with an outside tutor once a week when she was in 8th grade and doing 10th grade math.
EPGY materials through Calculus are used by JHU, but EPGY also provides courses beyond calculus. If your son is comfortable working with distance learning materials, EPGY is an option to be pursued.<br>
Another possibility is for your son to attend classes at the local community college or university. This is particularly attractive if he can take evening classes that will not interfere with his high school schedule (but see if he can be excused from one high school course so as not to be overloaded with work).
Texas137 gave some great suggestions for summer math camps. They are all different, and everyone has loved the camps s/he attended.</p>

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<p>Regarding the OP, I agree with the responses you got: talk to the principal and if that doesn't work, talk to the superintendent.</p>

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<p>amother -- my older S has taken various sorts of distance education courses, and found the EPGY ones best among the ones we knew about at the time. There are also 3-week residentail summer courses sponsored by EPGY: he took an excellent one in Quantum Mechanics at Stanford the summer when he was 14. It might be worthwhile to explore such options. (And good luck talking with the school administrators, I hope you can work out a good plan for your S!)</p>

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<p>amother,</p>

<p>Please do NOT be afraid that in pressing for your son's particular academic needs that you will offend or make angry the school administrators or teachers. Even if this happens, it is not a reason to let your son's huge academic potential go to waste (even for an hour a day). Your son is in a system that, while staffed with well-meaning people, works to keep the system going. It is a system that does not "like" to accommodate children who are advanced or who don't fit the mold. Most of the time they don't believe children can be that advanced, or they think that they are just ahead of the curve and the other children will catch up. The system doesn't know what to do with these kids. </p>

<p>As his parent, you know your son's needs and desires much, much better than the system or the people running it, and it is your responsbility to make sure that your son gets what he needs even if people at the top don't believe it.</p>

<p>What does that mean? It means that sometimes you will have to go to the top (as you have done before), sometimes you will have to confront people who are directly in contact with your kid (the librarian), sometimes you will have to sweet talk or put your foot down, sometimes it will have to be in writing and other times casually. And sometimes, a lot of times, you will have to supplement your kid's needs out of your own pocket (summers, after school, as you have done and are doing). Sometimes it will be long commutes or lots of driving (talk to me about all the night college classes my H and I have waited outside of in order to take S home at 10 p.m. -- ugh!) It's called negotiating the system and there is no one right way to do it. And it will probably last the entire time your kid is in public school. </p>

<p>When my kid was just about ready to start kindergarten, I met a woman whose son graduated from a big, pretty pathetic public high school in our town. He was valedictorian and was accepted to Stanford (not a typical situation at that school). Knowing the sad state of our public schools at the time (and particularly this high school), I asked her how her son managed to do so well. She said, "The one thing we learned was that the system does not care about our son. Individual teachers did, but not the system as a whole. We had to be his advocate at times and make sure he got what he needed." As a teacher of gifted kids in the system, I see the huge difference in kids who have parents advocating for their needs and those who blindly trust the system to do the best for their kids. Of course, I also see parents who overdo it and try to micromanage every single detail for their kids, but mostly I see blind trust, and it is rather frightening. </p>

<p>And as for the naps... no. He shouldn't be sleeping at school no matter how long of a day he has. He should be doing homework or reading for pleasure if homework is done. He can sleep at home.</p>

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<p>great post, momof2inca. To add a bit to the theme of "don't have blind trust in the school"...... amother, from your post it sounds like you are not a native speaker of English. You may come from a culture where it is not acceptable for parents to question the authority of the school. If that's the case, you will need to overcome your own discomfort to advocate for appropriate opportunities for your son. Don't count on even the magnet school necessarily providing him with everything he needs.</p>

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<p>Hi, All:</p>

<p>Thanks again for all these wonderful, much needed supports, suggestions and advices. I am feeling so much comfortable about how do address my concerns to the school now. Special thanks to Marite for such a detailed instruction as to how should I phrase my issue, that's exactly what I need. I truly appreciate it. With that as a guideline, I think I can do a better negotiating now.</p>

<p>texas137, you are right, English is my second language, I come from china, where no one should have a doubt about authority (not just school), let alone challenge it. In fact, my husband has been strongly against me to make any noise about this issue, (as well as putting my son in advanced class issue before). At the beginning, he would say ' After this year, it will be over', now he says:' only half year left, just bear with it, you may only make thing worse' etc. But I love my son too much to see him unhappy every day and I can't bear with the thought that he is been punished for him to study well.</p>

<p>But since I didn't grow up here, I am not sure if what ever the school is doing is actually considered legitimate in here USA, and as you have pointed out , I did feel not that comfortable or confident to deal with school authority, partially due to my language skill, partially due to my knowledge about the school system here and the whole cultrue. That’s why when I talked to counselor before, I never asked school to stop giving him work to do, I only asked if he can at least get his home work done first. After she gave me a kind of 'NO', I was a little lost, other then a lot of angry, wanting to complain, I didn't know how should I further pursue this issue, I was also not sure about my English skill , what if I really make things worse ? That’s why I posted my concern here just to see how other people would think about it. </p>

<p>I am so glad I did, not only I got the assurance that I am right on my concerns, I also got a lot of advices as to how should I address it to make it happen. I am feeling a lot more confident now. Thanks for your encouragement and support.</p>

<p>momof2inca, thanks for sharing with me about how the system works here. Now I know I can't just leave it to the school, I really have to keep a close eye on my son progress and his needs to make sure he gets appropriate opportunities. I used to like you said, blindly trust the school. Three years of middle school has almost past, even my son said: it was a waste of time, less then 1/10th of whatever he learned in this three years actually comes from school time. He is actually day-dreaming a lot at school, everyday he is just hoping the day gets over quickly, so he can get to home to do something that's really exciting and stimulating, he said many times, I wish those school times are his to control, so he can really learn a lot......I definitely learned this time, for his high school, I will make sure it doesn't happen again. </p>

<p>Marite: Thanks for the suggestions about all the alternatives for my son to explore. My son is like my husband; don't like to ask much to upset authority either. I talked to him and took a while to convince him that at least he can try to politely ask that high school teacher if he can do his own study in the class time instead of staring at the blackboard, feeling bored. Right now, he is determined to go to the magnet program, hoping with a lot of smart kids there, the teacher will have to make class more challenge, plus, he will meet some smart kids to be friends with, to inspire each other and to compete with
each other.....</p>

<p>Distance learning seems very good, the link texas137 provided about the distance learning from university of Texas seems very good, the price is reasonable too (egpy seems too expensive); I just need to find out more about the actual difficulty and depth of the curriculums before I sign him up.......thanks texas137 for that link. The computer training link is a good one, my son is very excited about that.....</p>

<p>OK, back to the topic of working at school, one more question again,</p>

<p>Can I send an email to principal and cc to every related personnel, or it's more proper to use snail mail? (Now you see, I want to do something, but always not sure what's the proper way......I guess my root culture is not that easily changed).....</p>

<p>I will be working on the letter this weekend, and I will update you about the result.</p>

<p>Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to You All!</p>

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<p>I believe e-mail is a second option. Option 1A is a meeting in person; option 1B is a telephone call. Direct, personal, interactive. Don't leave the principal room to eavde the issue or re-frame it to a different question. If halfway through the conversation it appears that you are not getting a favorable reception, indicate that if not satisfied you will take the case to the district superintendent's office...principals <em>hate</em> this. (Note: this is a variant of the "may I have the name of your supervisor?" gambit when dealing with corporate "customer service" [sic] types.)</p>

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<p>Actually, I disagree with TheDad, especially since amother is not a native English speaker and is not familiar with school culture and school bureaucracy.</p>

<p>Email is perfectly acceptable. It should be sent first so that you can lay out your case in your own words without feeling pressured. It is very easy for one's command of language to disappear when one is under pressure. The email message should end by asking for an appointment to discuss the situation.
During the conference, all can refer to the points raised by amother in the email message rather than using up time for her to lay them out (it's wonderful how conferences are called for 15 minutes which are then used up in chitchat, boilerplate, raising the issue and then time's up and nothing has been decided).
I also think that the email message before the conference will prevent anyone from saying "this is not what you told us in the conference; we were trying to address the issues your raised then," should the conference not go according to your liking. If you don't get satisfaction, you can forward the text of the message to the superintendent, members of the school board and try for a different outcome. There will not be an issue of what exactly you said in the conference, but what the principal and the librarian said.</p>

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<p>TheDad, normally I would agree with you about personal contact. In this case, where Amother has some concerns about her ability to be assertive in a second language, the extra time to compose her thoughts would be a big advantage for putting her arguments in writing. Plus it would let her cc anyone who might be relevant to the discussion. She could still follow-up with a face-to-face meeting.</p>

<p>Amother - my heart ached at your description of how your son feels about school. That's exactly how I felt about school, which was a big reason I never sent my son to school. To this day I feel repelled when I am inside a typical school. Don't hesitate at all to do whatever it takes to get your son what he needs.</p>

<p>On the U.Texas distance learning.. we were very happy with it. The courses my son took involved standard college textbooks, and a reasonable amount of material was covered. But, unlike EPGY, there really isn't much instruction included. The student basically has to be able to keep themselves on track and learn from the book without a lot of feedback. The course really just provides a syllabus to follow, which you could get for free from MIT OpenCourseWare <a href="http://ocw.mit.edu/index.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://ocw.mit.edu/index.html&lt;/a>. The real value to the UT course over just doing it yourself is that you end up with a grade on a transcript. </p>

<p>Are there any private schools in your area that allow part-time enrollment? Then your son could do math on his own, but still get the lab science and language arts courses that you probably want him to have at a school. Calling him a "homeschooler", and then having him dual-enroll in community college courses would also be an option.</p>

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<p>I have restrained myself from responding but, in the spirit of Christmas, I think that sooner or later, you'll have to come to terms with the fact that what the school is doing to our son is institutional child abuse.</p>

<p>Your story is not in the least uncommon - nor the outcome to date. But I think you are likely on the wrong list to get the largest pool of educated responses to deal with this situation. You should visit the Tagfam family of lists: <a href="http://www.tagfam.org/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.tagfam.org/&lt;/a> - we are on the homeschooling one (TAGMAX) and you will find literally thousands of people wrestling with the same difficulties, and on TAGMAX, hundreds of families who have taken matters into their own hands.</p>

<p>As far as I read it, school is getting in the way of his education. Won't be the first time, or the last.</p>

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<p>"mail is perfectly acceptable. It should be sent first so that you can lay out your case in your own words without feeling pressured. It is very easy for one's command of language to disappear..."</p>

<p>And if you want to have some parents here read the e-mail before you send it, feel free to post it. Lots of people here are in your corner.</p>

<p>The same thing goes for if you want to post here getting specific advice about what to say in person to the principal or school superintendent. Parents here are very helpful. We're all in the same boat: We want our kids to have appropriate educations.</p>

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<p>Northstarmom, thanks for your suggestion, after I finished my letter, I will post it here to get all of you's opinions. I appreciate all this very much. </p>

<p>What ever this fight may eventually results to, I will always remembered this speciall warm Chrismtmas season. I got one of the best Christmast gifts I even got.</p>

<p>I will talk to you all very soon.</p>

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<p>I do agree that if your son's school is not providing the calibre of academics that this advanced student wants, you should be looking for alternatives. Both Marite and Mini have some specific ideas and alternatives for this situation. Right now, however, you have a very specific problem that you want solved. I think that you well know what your alternatives are if your principal is not going to be agreeable about giving your son a study hall. You have already done battle with the school and you know precisely what you have to do, and what a pain in the neck it is going to be. Only you can assess if it is worth the battle. Some battles are just not worth fighting. Some are. </p>

<p>For now, what I would do, if this is at all possible, if you have not already burned the bridges with the librarian, is give her a big, fancy New Years basket of cheer for all the wonderful help she has given your son, and how grateful you are for the sanctuary that she has provided for him. I would then ask her, perhaps a week or so later, if your son could work on some specific project during that time rather than doing some errands as he is so interested in that subject and wants to work on it, and this wonderful library gives him the perfect environment to work on this project. I doubt if anyone else in the school cares what he is doing during that hour. No one really feels like finding another place for your son to go or something else to do, nor do they feel like instructing the librarian who probably feels like she is doing a favor having your son under her supervision during this time. I am not making any judgement in the situation, but am trying to tell you how a school probably views this whole arrangement. Another alternative is for you to pick him up and take him home or elsewhere for that hour and then back to school. </p>

<p>My son had a similar situation, though in highschool. He would go to early morning practice and then go directly to school since it was not practical to go home, the opposite way, and then go to school. The librarian was in early before the school really opened its doors and would let him in and he would assist her. It ended up that he worked for an hour before school started, delivering the newspapers to all of the classrooms and other things that she came up with. And, yes, he had a full day plus along with 5 AP courses that year, year round athlete, music and a number of other ECs. He had to suck it down. Now, he was in high school at that time, not in middle school, but we had to take some pretty adverse situations many times in order to get primarily what we wanted. Including some horrible commutes to school on top of heavy schedules, ECs, etc. Each time the situation occurred, I had to decide whether things were untenable or just irritating, and that is the decision you will have to make as well.</p>

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<p>Is it possible for your son to work something out with the music teachers, where he might do some practicing during that block of time, if there is an music office with piano, and some accompanying of chorus or vocal music class? If there is a band meeting at that time, he might play piano with that group. Music teachers are very resourceful when it comes to having access to talented young musicians. Good luck.</p>