<p>OP I cannot speculate as to how this may effect your son’s college. I will say that I have had a law school extern work for me that had two DUI’s, apparently when he was young, and it didn’t keep him from getting into law school and he did appear to have matured by the time he hit my desk.</p>
<p>“Prohibition didn’t work in the 1920’s. Why would it work now?”</p>
<p>I;m not in favor of it. But why do you think it didn’t work? Alcohol use decreased, cirrhosis of the liver was down 66% in men, and public drunkenness was halved. </p>
<p>What do you mean by “worked”?</p>
<p>You can become President or Vice President with a DUI on your record, so you ought to be able to get into college.</p>
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<p>it doesn’t work. Marijauna is legal in Colorado and Washington state.</p>
<p>Once the population doesn’t feel a law is legitimate, they do something to change it.</p>
<p>It is the insurance lobby that wants to keep the legal drinking age at 21. You have to look at the accident rate to understand why. I think we may have changed enough culturally that drunk driving is actually taboo. Nobody thinks “oh, you got screwed” if you get arrested for DUI now. They think, “How could you put people in danger like that?”</p>
<p>It’s a paradigm shift that was brought about by the insurance industry lobbying because they didn’t want to pay the accident liability. </p>
<p>I don’t care how it happened, the fact that people don’t drive drunk the way they used to is a good thing. And that is why there’s no real swell to change the laws.</p>
<p>Strict laws will “work” in the sense of reducing the frequency of the non-desired activity. But there’s also the question of how much personal freedom we have to give up to get that impact. This is why I don’t like the current drinking laws–it limits the rights of adults too much, in my opinion. I especially don’t approve of having the military draft age being lower than the drinking age.</p>
<p>We (presumably) wouldn’t tolerate different drinking laws for men and women, or for people of different races, no matter what the science showed about differences in impact. While age certainly isn’t exactly the same as those categories, I just don’t think the current laws handle rights appropriately.</p>
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<p>I think it’s a sticky situation.</p>
<p>How do you handle rights appropriately in this case? We know that drivers under 21 get into wayyyyy more accidents than those over 21. we know that when the drinking age was lower, the fatality rate from drunk drivers was so much higher.</p>
<p>As I said, I work with addicts, and I’m a teetotaler myself, and I’m not a big believer in the 21 age for beer and wine. But, I’m not sure hard liquor ought to be legal when heroin, which is much less dangerous, is not.</p>
<p>“I especially don’t approve of having the military draft age being lower than the drinking age.”</p>
<p>We definitely agree about that one. I don’t think ANYONE should be allowed into the military until age 40. (and I’m perfectly serious: it has to do with brain development. and life experience.)</p>
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<p>Actually, running red lights on right-turn-on-red situations (i.e. not stopping completely, looking, and yielding as required) is very common.</p>
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<p>Being over 40 has not stopped politicians from using the military in ways that many consider undesirable in some way.</p>
<p>Hard liquor is more dangerous than heroin?</p>
<p>I’d love to hear your rationale for that statement.</p>
<p>“What do you say to the argument that supervised teenage drinking by parents (ie drinking at 17 or 18) might help kids develop a better relationship with alcohol?”</p>
<p>The problem with that argument is that the binge drinking that really has no relationship with a wine with a meal, is what the problem is. You can sit and have wine tastings and allow champagne toasts all you want. That doesn’t mean squat when the kid is in a party situation and the purpose is to drink to get drunk. In most situations where there are alcohol problems, it’s not because your kid had a glass of wine at a dinner. It’s because s/he’s clearly drunk. I can enjoy wines and other alcohol as compliments to a meal, but don’t get drunk. It’s a whole other situation.</p>
<p>One of my closest friends had that theory, and she never agreed with the way I did things with my brood. Both of her kids ended up with alcohol related problems and so did two of mine. They all seem to be under control now, and my younger ones seem to have more common sense. My friend did shut up about her theory when her kids got into all of the trouble they did, and it seems like so did a number of other kids who were raised with being allowed to drink.</p>
<p>But I don’t know what the straight out stats are on this. Mini would have a better handle on this. The closest I have seen is that the earlier a child has had his/her first alcohol drink the higher, by far, are the chances of that person having severe alcohol problems----actually better stated is that those who are having severe problems with alcoholism and alcohol related problems tend to have a very early first drink age. What those implications are, I don’t know. </p>
<p>I do know from the stats I have seen with all kinds of substance abuse, is that the younger the person was when starting and the longer the person was imbibing, means the more difficult it is to solve the problems. I went to counsleors, a shrink, treatment centers galore, and was told that my kids had a high probability of not having a long term, hard core substance abuse problem, that any addictions if there, were more likely to be broken because they were late starters in this whole thing by their own reporting. One did not drink any alcohol ever until college; the other not till he was a junior in high school, and the abuse did not start for a bout a year after the first drink. Those factors were very much on our side statistically. At the time, they gave me no comfort because I had so hoped that keeping the alcohol under wraps and keeping a watch would mean dodging these bullets altogether Nope. But it appears that the predictions are correct as my kids have gotten older and they and their friends have outgrown a lot of those drunken blow outs, they find that they don’t really like to drink. That’ s the odd thing, they don’t like the taste of alcohol, or drinking alone or for the buzz. it’s a crowd thing, party thing for them. </p>
<p>My friend’s two kids, still like to drink. it’s very much part of their lives as they have been drinking even as children and they like wine with the meal, a drink at night to relax, etc. Again, they are over the crowd binge drinking that I don’t think had any relationship with their drinking with the family at meals or just at home, but when I’ve been over there, or they are here, I think they like their drink and it is very much part of their lives which does concern my friend, I can tell. It’s, however, anecdotal, and who knows whether this is problematic or not.</p>
<p>“my kids (11, 13) are the ones telling us not to drink and drive.”</p>
<p>Novimom, when my children were that age, they were so anti smoking, alcohol, drugs, illegal things, that my DH often wondered if they would be prudes. Oh, they were so sweet those days. I never, never, never would have thought they would be into contraband, and oh, yes they were, in a very big way. All peer pressure in that they wanted to be the ones right there drinking the most, smoking the most and acting the stupidest. They wanted to be “bad”, and I think they were the ones causing the peer pressure to others, much to my great shame. Of all of my kids, i would have thought those two would have been strong enough, popular enough, king of the hill enough, that they would not feel the need to do this sort of thing It hurt me so ever much, and still does. I’ll always harbor a huge disappointment that they felt they had to go that route and cause the pain that they did. </p>
<p>My one son, I could have understood if he felt that need, and maybe still another, since they were socially awkward and really did not feel they fit it and were often so hungry for being with the crowd. i hurt for them. The one had missed a lot of school the years he was in treatment, and then stood out as “that kid who had cancer”. I’ve learned since that a lot of the survivors do get involved in substance abuse. But the younger ones seemed to stand strong. </p>
<p>I so miss those days when they were so young and sweet and promising. Oh, my heart hurts from those sweet memories. Things were so much easier, and it was so much easier to have opinions on how to raise them then. Not so much when they are grown and your ideas have been dashed to the ground.</p>
<p>“Being over 40 has not stopped politicians from using the military in ways that many consider undesirable in some way.”</p>
<p>So let them carry the bazookas. (I’m perfectly serious.)</p>
<p>“The closest I have seen is that the earlier a child has had his/her first alcohol drink the higher, by far, are the chances of that person having severe alcohol problems----actually better stated is that those who are having severe problems with alcoholism and alcohol related problems tend to have a very early first drink age. What those implications are, I don’t know.”</p>
<p>This is true; and the average age of onset (not just a sip) for teen drinkers is age 12-13. It may be because lots of early onset drinkers are around other drinkers (siblings or parents), or are encouraged to “try it”, and see people enjoying themselves with alcohol. (Remember, around 20% of Americans are totally abstinent; higher for non-Caucasians). It seems also to be true (there is new research all the time) that early drinking potentiates genes for alcoholism, and perhaps 60% of alcoholism (as opposed to alcohol problems, even severe ones) is genetically related. There are certain people - certain kids - given family histories, who would be much better off of they didn’t drink at all, even a little (think of it as a long-term peanut allergy); then there are people like me who splits one beer with my wife, and we fall asleep.</p>
<p>Parental drinking may be related to the risk of kids’ alcohol problems.</p>
<p>[Parents</a> ‘need to drink less’ in front of their kids - Health News - NHS Choices](<a href=“http://www.nhs.uk/news/2012/12December/Pages/Parents-need-to-drink-less-in-front-of-their-kids.aspx]Parents”>http://www.nhs.uk/news/2012/12December/Pages/Parents-need-to-drink-less-in-front-of-their-kids.aspx)
[Parents</a> ‘should drink alcohol less in front of their children’ says report - Health News - Health & Families - The Independent](<a href=“Parents 'should drink alcohol less in front of their children' says report | The Independent | The Independent”>Parents 'should drink alcohol less in front of their children' says report | The Independent | The Independent)
[Demos</a> | Publications](<a href=“http://www.demos.co.uk/publications/feelingtheeffects/]Demos”>http://www.demos.co.uk/publications/feelingtheeffects/)</p>
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<p>there is only one drug which, if you are addicted, can kill you on detox, and that drug is alcohol. To get to the level where it will kill you on detox, you generally need to be drinking it in the form of hard liquor.</p>
<p>If heroin were regulated in dosages like alcohol, so that one could not have accident due to purity levels? The rate of death by OD would be very low. The rate of death by OD from alcohol is very high, considering we know the dosages. The use of hard liquor is almost always involved in alcohol overdoses.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.fairfaxtimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130517/OPINION/130519287/1065/thwarting-teen-drinking-this-summer&&template=PrinterFriendlyFFX[/url]”>http://www.fairfaxtimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130517/OPINION/130519287/1065/thwarting-teen-drinking-this-summer&&template=PrinterFriendlyFFX</a></p>
<p>from the article:</p>
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<p>I agree with Mini, that Prohibition did work. Even with bootleg booze deaths, the casualty rate for alcohol dropped. Harder to get crazy drunk regularly, when booze is illegal and a lot of trouble to get. The true diehards will get it anyways and kill themselves off earlier with the methanol or crazy doses, but there is that category of drinkers that are “swing” in terms of risk, and they are a larger group than one would think. </p>
<p>I am worried about what will happen when pot is legal and used in larger quantities and more frequently. That it is illegal makes it more difficult to get and to use in large amounts. A lot of people are more careful in its use because of the illegality of it You can’t just buy huge amounts of it without risking some big time trouble when it’s illegal. When it becomes legal, all the lids are off, and usage will probably go way up for a certain portion of the the population, and then we’ll see what the ramifications of its use are. Also things like driving when high are going to be an issue. Alcohol dissipates quickly so you can be pretty sure someone was drinking not so long ago when you test. With pot, it’s not so easy to pinpoint when you were smoking and how much. I think there will have to rules of no pot smoking at all and more random drug testing for certain jobs.</p>
<p>I used to feel indignant about 18 year old males being the prime meat for the draft and being cannon fodder. Until I had 18 year old males of my own, and then I realized why societies operated that way.</p>
<p>cptofthehouse -</p>
<p>again, my sympathies are with you… you still sound so heartbroken over all that has happened with your kids. And you have been through sooo much. Hugs.</p>
<p>regards,
NM</p>
<p>Well, cpt. in Colorado, the people who use marijuana have been using it with medical cards for a long time, now. So, it wasn’t hard to get for anyone since everyone had a friend with a card.</p>
<p>I think they are more concerned about the “tourists” than the residents.</p>
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<p>But do those studies reflect the context of the first drink? </p>
<p>I’d also be curious about the survey methodology. If a child is allowed an occasional half-glass of of wine at the dinner table on special occasions at age 13 or 14, but starts drinking socially with peers at age 16 – which counts as the first drink? Does Manischewitz* at Passover ever qualify as “wine” (yes, its alcoholic… but I’ve never met anyone who actually likes to drink the stuff on any other occasion).</p>
<p>Oddly, the abuse with alcohol with my kids, and a number of kids I know is not the wines and the types of drinks one would have with dinner or as cordials, but hard liquor. My adult kids don’t even like wine or beer that much, and will often abstain at meals. The attraction was in social situations, and those were not what I had expected would be the case. </p>
<p>So, whether the wines at special dinners and occasions was a factor, I don’t know. </p>
<p>In our family, there are some pretty strong genetic predispostions to drink and depression. It will take some time to see if these demons can be beaten in the current generation. One thing I can tell you, it was not MY drinking that led to MY depression, but my kids’.</p>
<p>Drinking before 15 is correlated with alcoholism, particularly among young men whose father’s are alcoholics. This link is so high it could be used diagnostically.</p>
<p>There is a wide array of factors which lead to early drinking. One of the main ones is parental drinking. Alcoholism runs in families. It is very difficult to tease the cause out, because nobody is going to do a blind test on adolescents to “see” who does and who doesn’t end up with the disease.</p>
<p>However, I would argue that at this age, the biggest danger is from prescription drug addiction. This is what is killing our kids and it is also what is leading to heroin use. So, toss out your old prescriptions. Never keep them around. </p>
<p>Good luck to everyone.</p>