What about the kids that XYZ really wanted to pledge and they rejected XYZ? How do you know your son didn’t “break the hearts” (metaphorically speaking) of guys at XYZ who really liked him but he spurned them for ABC?
It is mutual selection. That’s the whole point.
Btw, what gives me the “right” to decide I want to invite Mary from down the hall and Susie from chemistry class out to dinner with my parents when they come to town, or to room together off campus next year? Why can’t Joanie from math class horn her way into dinner with my parents or into our new apartment?
soze,
There is nothing preventing your S from including his lonely non-fraternity friend in everything he does, unless it is officially limited to members, and that is usually only a couple of events per year, like the date formals.
All of my kids had friends who were not in their houses who they maintained friendships with throughout college. They were friends they knew from other ECs.
“What gives them the right to reject anybody who is good enough for the university?”
Pretty sure the US Constitution gives them that right, so long as they’re not rejecting for legally protected discriminatory reasons while receiving public funds.
I understand your sentiment in principle, particularly for colleges that are dominated by the Greek scene. But this is college, not kindergarten where every kid must get an invitation to every birthday party. People over the age of 6 are free to hang out with whoever they want, and not hang out if they don’t.
“There is nothing preventing your S from including his lonely non-fraternity friend in everything he does, unless it is officially limited to members, and that is usually only a couple of events per year, like the date formals.”
This is spot-on. It seems as though you want there to be a fraternity of people who will magically befriend your friend’s son and include him in all their activities – while ignoring the fact that your son is absolutely free to befriend this young man and include him in his activities. You seem to want the fraternity to “shelve” its exclusivity but you’re ok with your son excluding someone.
Not even close.
It’s apparent that organized social activities on this campus center around fraternities. This kid didn’t get into any fraternity and thus he has a significantly diminished experience relative to those kids that did. Again… I’m having a very hard time wrapping my head around what legitimate criteria a fraternity could possibly use to reject anybody.
My son is not “excluding” anybody, he’s not the one organizing the parties.
There is more to life than organized social activities.
Nothing, absolutely nothing, prevents your son from calling up this kid and inviting him out for coffee or to the movies or to shoot a few hoops together or to study at the library together.
“I’m having a very hard time wrapping my head around what legitimate criteria a fraternity could possibly use to reject anybody.”
What was the criteria your son used for preferring the guys in ABC to the guys in DEF and GHI fraternities? Or put another way – what was the criteria your son used to REJECT the guys in DEF and GHI?
Nice try, but this example doesn’t work, because I’m quite sure that scenario doesn’t happen. Given that there are some kids who don’t get into any fraternities, XYZ could have taken any number of them, which I’m quite confident would have been just as “good” as my son, but for whatever silly reasons they have, chose not to.
If XYZ “liked” him, it’s pretty much for meaningless arbitrary reasons, much like whatever “rationale” they used to reject those that they “didn’t like.”
Probably some asinine reason(s) like where they were from, the music they liked or the clothes they wore.
Interesting that you keep turning this around and not answer my core question: What is a possible legitimate reason that a fraternity could have for rejecting someone?
You’re completely wrong that the scenario doesn’t happen. It most certainly does.
If XYZ “liked” your son, it was for meaningless arbitrary reasons. OK. So what were the meaningful, non-arbitrary reasons he liked ABC better? You’re pretending that HIS reasons for preferring ABC over XYZ were significant and meaningful, but XYZ’s reasons for liking your son (potentially over some other kid) were meaningless and arbitrary.
People like some other people and don’t like yet other people. It’s as simple as that.
“What is a possible legitimate reason that a fraternity could have for rejecting someone?”
They hit it off with other people better.
What’s the legitimate reason that you are not BFF’s with the parent of all of your children’s classmates? Presumably you met a lot of them and you liked some better than you liked others.
"Or put another way – what was the criteria your son used to REJECT the guys in DEF and GHI?
Probably some asinine reason(s) like where they were from, the music they liked or the clothes they wore."
I don’t think those are asinine reasons. I wouldn’t have fit in a world of girls who played exclusively classical music, or who were all from the UES of Manhattan, or all wore black goth dress and piercings.
Another thing to keep in mind is, that unfortunately for “quiet and awkward” kids, even without fraternities on campus it can be difficult for them to make friends. In fact, it can be more difficult, because part of the point of the Greek system is to encourage friendships and make them easier and faster to form in a new and temporary environment like a 4-year college. For lots of shy kids, fraternities/sororities are a huge plus in that regard. The introduction setting is arranged, so all they need to do is show up looking well-groomed and make an effort to put their best foot forward in conversation. Of course, this does not help the kids who don’t get an invitation to join, which is why I am in favor of colleges allowing more houses.
You keep making this seem like it’s the same thing as making everybody be friends with everybody else.
It’s not the same.
We are talking about a university-sanctioned, sponsored and recognized organization which has a formal membership roll and uses arbitrary social criteria set by a bunch of kids to determine membership.
Not the same at all.
"For lots of shy kids, fraternities/sororities are a huge plus in that regard. The introduction setting is arranged, so all they need to do is show up looking well-groomed and make an effort to put their best foot forward in conversation. "
Yes. This is exactly it. As an introvert, if I had been left to my own devices, I would have holed up in my dorm and not made a lot of friends. The Greek system enabled me to meet a broader range of people because the introduction setting was arranged. It was a lot less awkward to talk with girls in a rush setting where they had to listen one on one, than to have gone to a frat party and made small talk in a far more awkward setting.
I get being quiet and awkward but I also think that developing the skills to be able to socialize with others is a very important life skill in general.
soze,
If your S sees a friend on campus who is alone and lonely a lot, and he doesn’t do anything about it, then that is on him. There is absolutely nothing, including his membership in his fraternity, preventing him from being friends with that guy and doing things with him.
I’m sure it did.
What about those kids who paid just as much tuition as you did and for arbitrary reasons were denied this opportunity?
That seems to be based on the school’s social life being dominated by fraternities and sororities, rather than just their presence. If the selection process is highly competitive, that can increase the social isolation for those not accepted into any; of course, it can also be socially isolating for those not interested.
But there are lots of schools where fraternities and sororities are only a small presence (percentage-wise) of students. At large schools, the number of students in them may be large enough to have rows of fraternity and sorority houses, but the number of other students is far greater, so the social activities available outside of fraternities and sororities are plentiful. School location may also play a part in the availability of social activities outside of fraternities and sororities.
Sorry, if I wasn’t clear, but my S barely knows this kid. He’s the son of a friend of mine. I was just inquiring of my son if he ever ran into this kid, and his reply was that whenever he sees him, he’s alone. Apparently this kid was not admitted to any fraternities and that puts him on the outside-looking-in when it comes to social activities on campus.
This kids parents spend just as much on tuition as I do, and this kid should not have a diminished undergraduate experience just because he wasn’t “fraternity material.”
Well, everyone at the University pays the same tuition yet you don’t have a right to take a certain major or even a particular class from a particular professor. You have to register, there has to be room in the class, you have to have certain prerequisites. If the sports teams are letting everyone join, are they competitive, does everyone get equal playing time even if he is awful? At my school there were intramural teams and anyone could form a team and pay the registration fee. That didn’t mean an unlimited number of teams could sign up because there just weren’t the facilities, and the team size was limited to make it more fun for everyone,and you needed at least 15-20 friends to form a team. Who wants to be the 35th player on a team when only 15 get to play? My friend’s daughter went to Brandies and didn’t do well socially. Maybe a smaller, tighter group of friends would have helped her but she just didn’t find a core group and now that I learn no group is limited in size, that could be a factor. She did have a limited, exclusionary ‘learning community’ so there are some exclusions made by the university.
My daughter must be the Greek outlier. She’s Asian, plays a varsity sport, is not wealthy (believe me, NOT wealthy), is socially shy at first, has very good grades (but so do the rest of the Greeks). She likes it and it’s been a good way to meet other women at her 75% male school, but it is just one part of her college experience. Each house has a fair number of minorities, including DD’s, but are probably more white and more American in membership than the school’s demographics (about 30% minority, 35% international). Her lacrosse team has exactly one minority, her. The president of her house is a very accomplished woman, was also president of mech eng honorary society (another exclusionary club at the school). Robotics club, exclusionary. Orchestra and drama groups? By audition, so exclusionary. Sports teams? Definitely exclusionary, and even when you make the team, you may not play. Internships and co-ops? Exclusionary as you have to ‘audition’ (interview) and some will not be selected.
I’ll add that my daughter’s house would love to have offered invitations to many more girls last year but is limited by the panhellenic group to a certain number. They want to keep all the houses the same size, so limit the number of invitations of each group. If every group had open membership, DD’s house would have 3X the members of the other houses. Just like everyone wants the most popular professor, everyone wants the popular house, and limits have to be made.