Sticker Shock

College Majors Music Major
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<p>I have some knowledge, also, of the trumpet programs at both Oberlin and Northwestern. My son was rejected by both schools, but he knows someone (from youth orchestra) who is at Oberlin and really likes it. One problem my son had last year is that Oberlin was full up with trumpet players. The year before 100% of the trumpet players admitted accepted, which left them with no real openings this past year, unless they came across someone really outstanding. (not my son, unfortunately) According to my son (through his friend), they have an excellent program and some really good young players there.</p>

<p>As for Northwestern, the main trumpet professors are a husband and wife who used to teach at Eastman, when one of my son's trumpet teachers was there. He has nothing but the highest regard for them. And, as you mentioned, Beethoven's 10th, Northwestern is producing some outstanding players, so they must be doing something right.</p>

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<p>Thanks, Susan and Beethoven's 10th!! Oberlin and Northwestern are very much on my son's radar. We need to visit both (in the dead of winter....my son wears shorts and tee shirts year round). The only pair of long pants he owns belongs to his tux.<br>
Can you tell us anything about college auditions? We are two years away, but my son is very curious. His main problem is that he is playing too many gigs...he needs to focus on audition material, but he's constantly getting calls to play. That with balancing his very demanding academic schedule is making it tough to prepare anything. Do you have any advice? He also needs to learn how to audition...he's great performing, but has not auditioned much (except at all states, nationals, etc). Thank you!
The Northwestern player at NY Phil..can you imagine? There also was a very young tuba player from UMich who just got into Philly (I think she's like 22-23). Just goes to show...it's the player, not necessarily the school.</p>

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<p>Symphonymom, I just bumped a couple threads that might be of interest to you. Trumpet schools, preparing for auditions, degree differences. </p>

<p>You asked about "referring to different thread" and I'm not sure what you mean. At the top of the page, on the blue bar, there is a search function that allows you to search for topics, posts by specific people, or whatever. To start your own topic, click on the white "New Thread" button. However, it might be helpful to search for your question first, to see if there is a thread already about the same topic. That way you can take advantage of the advice already shared, and not miss anything.</p>

<p>And by the way, welcome!</p>

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<p>Thank you, Binx...I'll try searching for those threads!</p>

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<p>FluteMomLiz-though my DD is not a music major (my next one will go that route though) I would like to comment on the $$ end of your OP. I am a single parent of 3 with very limited resources. My DD has a fairly stacked up resume as well as a passion for international politics. I make just a bit too much to recieve fed. aid. After a great amount of research, we came up with a list 7 schools. She recieved merit or grant aid at every school! Unforunately her no. 1 pick is still out of reach $$ and sadly we are turning it down---and that is with a scholarship of over 120,000 bucks---so that she can go on a full ride to our big state U. Big state U has an excellent program for her field and since she is determined to go to law school, undergrad debt would be rediculous. Turning down the acceptances at really good schools was difficult but the $$$ from all of the schools made it a bit easier to stomach. BTW--the well endowed private schools really came through with incredible amounts of $$. If your resources are truly limited, I would not count them out.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the encouragment that several of you have expressed.</p>

<p>Sadly as you all know travel for auditions and application fees add up quickly making it important to streamline ones list. Eliminating those schools not likely to give sufficient aid is important. Especially when added to the fact that flute positions are probably the most difficult to win audition for, with 20 or even 50 quality applicants for every opening. Too late to buy her a cello?</p>

<p>But we will wait to eliminate schools strictly on cost basis until we have a better idea of what funds we can expect. Keeping our hopes high. But realisticly fearing having to decline a great school and teacher that her heart gets set on, because the dollars aren't there.</p>

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<p>Forget the cello, go for viola if you want to maximize your chances. Not a lot of students take it up as a primary instrument and there are a fair number needed in an orchestra. </p>

<p>Hang in there and best of luck to you both.</p>

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<p>Kidding about the Cello. </p>

<p>One of her good friends plays viola(extremely well) and hates the old joke(tease) of if you aren't good enough for violin they move you to viola, not good enough for viola they move you to cello, not good enough for cello they make you a drummer. Dont know why certain instruments get made fun of or get less respect, like Trombone in the winds.</p>

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<p>Funny - the only violists I know (3 of them) all play violin at a very high level, and added viola for the challenge, when HS orchestras didn't offer them enough growth ops in the violin section. One of my D's friends had to chose last year between principal second violin and principal viola at All State. (She took the viola spot.) I used to sub in the MS orchestra (because I was one of the few subs who could read music) and had a heck of a time reading the alto clef. (Fortunately it was MS, and I was still better at it than most of them. ;) )</p>

<p>I think the jokes come from the popular instruments (violin, flute, clarinet, trumpet) because there are more of those folks to keep the jokes alive! However, I've heard the same jokes recycled over and over for different instruments, too.</p>

<p>Sorry for diverting the thread.</p>

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<p>I just have a few suggestions for anyone with college sticker shock:</p>

<p>1) Tell your child up front and early in the process how much you can afford. (If you don't know you better figure it out NOW - and don't forget retirement is looming.)</p>

<p>2) Let her go ahead and apply and audition anywhere - just try to make sure she doesn't "fall in love" with any one school. All visits, catalogues, and pretty web site photos require a cool head. (You'll have to assess money after the offers come in.) </p>

<p>3) Be VERY careful not to disparage safety schools - talk about them with the same respect and admiration you talk about reach schools. When you visit them be sure to point out the good things (every school has good things to offer).</p>

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<p>Couldn't it be that people who double degree think that more than one field could help them in there lives or that they want to have two fields of expertise? For instance, I would like to major in vocal performance and composition. Do you understand what I am saying?</p>

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<p>Nick,</p>

<p>what you are describing is more like a double major than a double degree. Many music schools will allow you to study both voice and composition, but since they are both majors from the same school with a lot of common elements, they will only give you one piece of parchment. If you want to learn more about the distinction and have not done so already, check out the articles on the Peabody website at <a href="http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/692%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/692&lt;/a> and <a href="http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/787%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/787&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p>

<p>What I think you are observing is that some people pursue more than one field for intellectual reasons and others do the same for practical reasons. If so, you are absolutely correct.</p>

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<p>An addition to my previous post: </p>

<p>Just saw my financial aid award letter from Peabody. Ug... $6000 undergraduate scholarship + $4000 Peabody Grant-In-Aid + the federal stuffs = a total of about $20,000. That leaves a difference of $22,000 that my family cannot afford. </p>

<p>I'm so glad I'm doing the double degree program so that I don't need to pay the Peabody tuition... Yup, the conservatories are not the best schools in the world when it comes to financing students...</p>

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<p>I found this website looking for some help with my son's college search, but since my daughter is a flute performance major at Northwestern I gravitated to this thread. I too had sticker shock when my daughter started the audition process, and I still have it when I get the quarterly tuition bill. </p>

<p>To get back the original question, you or your daughter can probabaly get the money you need, in some form or fashion, to send her to an expensive school, but it may put you,her or both in debt for a long time. My daughter has a signature loan for $20K from Sallie Mae, and $8K in fed loans, and I have a $15K PLUS loan. She gets about $10.5K in scholarship money annually and up to $2100 work-study. She has another year to go; two if she gets the double degree. Northwestern gives scholarships and fed loans based on need. The only problem is what you think you need, and what they think you need, are very far apart, although you can try and negotiate. --Is this worth it? I think so. We all love our kids, but maybe the jury is still out on that one. </p>

<p>If this scenario is not appealing, then you may want to eliminate the expensive schools early. Maybe you can go through the FASFA process now, so you can see what your expected contribution would be. As others have said, given the competition for places in the top flute studios, you have to assume, as talented as your daughter is, that she may not get a merit scholarship. It would be hard, if your daughter gets into a place like Juilliard, to look her in the eye and say, "we can't afford to send you there." </p>

<p>A couple of other thoughts:</p>

<p>As you probabaly already know, so much of the selection process is driven by who the flute teacher is at a particular school. Its seems like all the big name teachers were at fairly expensive schools. I think there are less expensive schools where there are great (but maybe not so famous) teachers whose students win competitions, where, also, someone as talented as your daughter might get a full scholarship. One thing my daughter has found, though, is that she has learned alot playing challenging music in good ensembles with other talented students. So the overall strength of the music program is something to take into consideration as well. </p>

<p>The double degree program at Northwestern and I believe most schools takes 5 years. (I believe even if you were to finish in 4, they would charge you for the extra classes you took). At NWU you can get a degree in Music (or some other school) and finish the requirements for another major in the college of arts and sciences. Your transcript would note only a degree in Music and a designation that you completed the requirements for a major in the other department.</p>

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<p>PatN: I truly believe you and your D will look back on the sacrifice and agree that it was worth it. There are not many kids who are talented and smart enough to succeed at your D's level. They deserve that level of education even if it means a few years of living frugally to handle the debt. She could have gone to some place cheaper, been unhappy, learned less and have less than a 50% chance of graduating.</p>

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<p>PatN thank you so much. I thought this thread was dead and then you write such a great reply that speaks so directly to all of my concerns.</p>

<p>Expecting admission to a top school is already a tough chance, getting a scholarship is probably too much of a stretch to count on. Not in the flute world where competition is so high even compared to other music degrees.</p>

<p>That brings in two problems. One is it worth it to go so far in debt to graduate from a top school, when even that is not likely to get her a well paying orchesstra job. Two how deep in debt do we end up and how do we pay it off as retirement looms.</p>

<p>I think others dismiss the problem of getting the acceptance letter from the school of her dreams to study with a great teacher and then having to say no because it would likely cost us our home. Also the cost involved of visiting and investigating and applying to schools that even if she did win the audition we could not afford.</p>

<p>If I do the FSFA Calculator that figures out how much aid they think we need, do I assume that is the figure I need to finance privately? And the difference between that number and the total college cost they will help set up the financing? Isn't this just having loans in two different places? Whether the loan is in her name or ours it matters little, it still has to be paid and with either graduate school or a low paying job to follow school for her repaying it is a big issue. Or is there reason to think some funds will be provided that do not need to be repaid other than scholarship for her abilities? I understand Pell grants are not a possibility.</p>

<p>Is your daughter at NW studying with Walter Kujala? Please let me know how she is enjoying it? Yes it does seem almost all the teachers worth studying with are at very expensive schools.</p>

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<p>If you demonstrate financial need, you will usually be offered a package that includes grants, non-merit based scholarships, work-study and loans. If you are looking at public universities, some offer in-state tuition rates to out-of-state students who meet certain criteria. The packages can vary widely from school to school, both in the total amount offered and the mix of different types of aid. Grants and scholarships need not be repaid, so the more you get in those categories the better. You can also look to outside sources for scholarships. While these tend to be small, you may be able to collect several of them and every little bit helps.</p>

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<p>Is there any guide to if a specific college or conservatory is likely to give grants and scholarships and in what amount?</p>

<p>Still desperately trying to estimate the affordability factor of the top music shools in order to make our list.</p>

<p>I mean it is one thing to have $20K in loans after 4 years of education, it is another to have $120K. And at $40K plus per year in costs, 120K seems very possible and frightening.</p>

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<p>I do not know of any such guide, but you can ask around CC for what experience others have had with specific schools. From my daughter's experience and what I have heard from others, Oberlin and BU seem fairly generous, while NEC and Peabody do not. This comes from the parent of a double bassist, not a flutist so your mileage may vary.</p>

<p>I do not know if most schools publish this kind of information, but this page (although a bit dated) from Oberlin may be of interest:
<a href="http://www.oberlin.edu/coladm/admit/financialaid/financing.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.oberlin.edu/coladm/admit/financialaid/financing.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>(click on 2000-2001 profile on the left side of the page. More recent numbers are available in a hard-copy brochure that is available from the Financial Aid office.)</p>

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<p>I can't imagine a listing like one you (FluteMom) imagine, because the total amount of money often has to do with some combination of need and talent. Too individual. For every kid who gets a lot, there's going to be another who doesn't get anything. That said, some schools do have a reputation for giving less.</p>

<p>About the only thing you will be able to find is whether or not they meet 100% of need (few conservatories say they do.)</p>

<p>I have also heard that NEC is not very generous. I have heard the same thing about Northwestern. S did not apply to either of those schools, so I have no first-hand knowledge. Of our own experience, CIM came through with least - about a third to quarter of the total cost; CCM and Juilliard both came through with about half.</p>

<p>Ranking schools solely on scholarships can be a double-edged sword. Here's a scenario:</p>

<p>School A and School B both have a ton of flute applicants, and both give scholarships only to the top student. Do you aim for school B where the flutes aren't as good, so your D has a better chance of being the best? Or for School A, where your D is not yet at the ceiling?</p>

<p>Don't mean to over-simplify. Different answers for different people. Your challenge (and it IS a challenge) is to find where the grid for cost and the grid for value overlap.</p>